Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[BradyFTW!]

I'm not sure why punching a 350 lb mound of rage and hate who is using physical as well as verbal intimidation would be considered a mature or responsible response to this sort of behavior to anyone but internet tough guys.

If you get right down to it, there isn't a whole lot that's reasonable about the game of football. As a sport, it pretty much demands a hyper-aggressive, brutish mentality from most players, and especially linemen. So I'm not going to pretend I'm shocked to learn that a lot of the guys who play at the highest levels are basically neanderthals.

Positions like that give ammo to the people who claim that you're naive and out of touch if you think that Incognito was way out of line. There's plenty of room to both:

A) accept that an NFL locker room is a far less PC place than society at large, and
B) also maintain that Incognito went way, way over the line

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not sure why punching a 350 lb mound of rage and hate who is using physical as well as verbal intimidation would be considered a mature or responsible response to this sort of behavior to anyone but internet tough guys.

True.
Not even saying anything about it, or doing anything at all that could help to stop it isnt the mature or responsible response either. Although I'm not sure mature and responsible is a reasonable expectation for many NFL players.

 

[ssfire]

The most hilarious part of this is that Incognito thought he'd be exonerated and went on a Twitter tirade a few days ago. Did he not realize his attempts to cover up evidence would come to light?

 

[Ring 6]

The most hilarious part of this is that Incognito thought he'd be exonerated and went on a Twitter tirade a few days ago. Did he not realize his attempts to cover up evidence would come to light?

I dont think trying to ditch the notebook when he was being suspended is meaningful.

 

[Ring 6]

If you get right down to it, there isn't a whole lot that's reasonable about the game of football. As a sport, it pretty much demands a hyper-aggressive, brutish mentality from most players, and especially linemen. So I'm not going to pretend I'm shocked to learn that a lot of the guys who play at the highest levels are basically neanderthals.

Positions like that give ammo to the people who claim that you're naive and out of touch if you think that Incognito was way out of line. There's plenty of room to both:

A) accept that an NFL locker room is a far less PC place than society at large, and
B) also maintain that Incognito went way, way over the line

Can you describe specifically what actions were way, way over the line in your opinion?

 

[ssfire]

I dont think trying to ditch the notebook when he was being suspended is meaningful.

Eh, it doesn't make him look good either.

This guy just looks stupid to me. He causes one teammate to have emotional distress and contemplate suicide, tormented another lineman, and treated his trainer like garbage. And yet he still doesn't understand - or rather, he just doesn't care about - his actions. He's too busy tweeting things like #FreeIncognito.

 

[fake punt]

Hardcore political correctness and the wussification of America were already well underway before Obama got elected into office.

As for Martin, he sounds very, very soft and should not be in a locker room. That was ball busting, plain and simple. If he hasn't began looking at other career options, he should start right about now.

Did you read the attorney's report?

 

[Ring 6]

Eh, it doesn't make him look good either.

This guy just looks stupid to me. He causes one teammate to have emotional distress and contemplate suicide, tormented another lineman, and treated his trainer like garbage. And yet he still doesn't understand - or rather, he just doesn't care about - his actions. He's too busy tweeting things like #FreeIncognito.

Actually trying to get rid of that notebook is one thing that does look smart.

Also Incognito did not cause Martin to contemplate suicide. That was due to playing poorly.

 

[primetime]

If you get right down to it, there isn't a whole lot that's reasonable about the game of football. As a sport, it pretty much demands a hyper-aggressive, brutish mentality from most players, and especially linemen. So I'm not going to pretend I'm shocked to learn that a lot of the guys who play at the highest levels are basically neanderthals.

It doesn't inherently demand any such thing. There's no reason to think that the physicality of the game has to translate to a Neanderthal mentality in the locker room. It's this same kind of 'manliness' thinking that contributes to guys playing with massive concussions and no one blinking an eye.

People are welcome to think that I'm naive and out of touch if I think Incognito was out of line, I'm not sure why I should be concerned with giving their crappy arguments ammunition.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Can you describe specifically what actions were way, way over the line in your opinion?

The two parts of the report that most jumped out at me were:

1) The harassment of the assistant trainer for being Asian, and
2) Incognito maintaining an ongoing bet over whether he could 'break' Martin, specifically after Martin confided in him that he was contemplating suicide.

There's more, but both of those are particularly indefensible from my perspective, regardless of the fact that they were working in an NFL locker room.

 

[Ring 6]

It doesn't inherently demand any such thing. There's no reason to think that the physicality of the game has to translate to a Neanderthal mentality in the locker room. It's this same kind of 'manliness' thinking that contributes to guys playing with massive concussions and no one blinking an eye.

People are welcome to think that I'm naive and out of touch if I think Incognito was out of line, I'm not sure why I should be concerned with giving their crappy arguments ammunition.

I'm not sure its naive to think he is out of line, but I do think its naive to expect NFL players to act like your insurance agent, dentist, or banker.
Its nice to say they shouldn't have to be that way, but it really is part of the package that allowed them to make it to the NFL in many cases.

 

[ssfire]

Actually trying to get rid of that notebook is one thing that does look smart.

Also Incognito did not cause Martin to contemplate suicide. That was due to playing poorly.

Adam Beasley ‏@AdamHBeasley · 3m
Martin acknowledged having suicidal thoughts in January 2013. Didn't say it was bc of behavior by teammates bc he didn't want to be a snitch.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure playing poorly wasn't the only reason Martin was hospitalized. The environment clearly had something to do with it.

 

[BradyFTW!]

It doesn't inherently demand any such thing. There's no reason to think that the physicality of the game has to translate to a Neanderthal mentality in the locker room. It's this same kind of 'manliness' thinking that contributes to guys playing with massive concussions and no one blinking an eye.

People are welcome to think that I'm naive and out of touch if I think Incognito was out of line, I'm not sure why I should be concerned with giving their crappy arguments ammunition.

I certainly wouldn't claim that it's naive or out of touch to think that Incognito was out of line. If you go back and re-read the post that you quoted, I totally agree that he was. He was out of line by any sane definition of the term.

My whole point was that it is naive to think that jock culture is going to go away anytime soon, and those aren't opposing beliefs. You can accept jock culture as a reality and simultaneously maintain that Incognito's actions went far beyond that.

 

[Fencer]

Or he could have done what most people do when they get tired of a bully: clocked Incognito in the face.

It's one thing to say that felony assault in the workplace is ACCEPTABLE in the NFL. I pretty much agree with that, for obvious reasons; beating somebody up outside the context of the game may not be a big deal if it's no more severe than what happens when the game or practice is underway.

But to say that it is REQUIRED is in my opinion going too far.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't dispute anything you said, but I just think its unrealistic to expect Incognito to respond to that comment by acting differently, other than helping him deal with the playing poorly issue.

If you're a team captain or member of a "leadership council" and you become aware that one of your close teammates is having major emotional/psychiatric issues, I would hope that you would (a) exercise a little tact and restraint in dealing with a situation that's obviously over your head, and (b) inform someone higher up the chain that there is a potentially serious problem.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're right on both counts, but that doesn't change the fact that Incognito crossed the line by a mile.

IMO, whether or not Incognito crossed the line depends strongly on the environment he's in. You can see the difference in environments in this thread. For some people, what was being said is commonplace amongst their friends, for others it isn't. The Dolphins locker room seems to be a place where that was accepted behavior. Not surprising to me, at least. I've been in locker rooms like that and I'm pretty sure more of them exist at both the collegiate and pro levels. In this instance, Martin participated in that behavior. That, in part, is what led to Incognito's teammates to get his back publicly to the media.

Serious question. Are you thinking before you type?

What about what I said is even remotely wrong? Pot, meet kettle.

 

[primetime]

My whole point was that it is naive to think that jock culture is going to go away anytime soon, and those aren't opposing beliefs. You can accept jock culture as a reality and simultaneously maintain that Incognito's actions went far beyond that.

Okay, I'll agree with this, but I will challenge you and take it a bit far because I think accepting it as 'it is what it is' or 'boys will be boys' is defeatist. These things can and do change, and often quite quickly. Fans, the media, and the league all have a role in rejecting the boys will be boys narrative.

 

[Kontradiction]

If you read the report, Martins and others were picked on BECAUSE they were quiet. In other words, Icognito and Pouncey picked on players because they knew they wouldn't fight back.

Just because Martin is above punching his own teammate doesn't make him soft.

Explain to me a couple of things, then...

1. How were Incognito and Martin supposedly seen as friends around the locker room?

2. If Incognito was picking on Martin because he was silent, and it was all meant in a way to crush Martin's spirit and single him out, why was it reported that he got Martin's back during a fight with a defensive lineman in practice?

 

[Ring 6]

If you're a team captain or member of a "leadership council" and you become aware that one of your close teammates is having major emotional/psychiatric issues, I would hope that you would (a) exercise a little tact and restraint in dealing with a situation that's obviously over your head, and (b) inform someone higher up the chain that there is a potentially serious problem.

Well, we don't know what he did, so its pointless to discuss that.
But many are acting as if Incognito felt their relationship was the reason he was suicidal and just kept pouring it on. That was clearly not the case.

 

[Ring 6]

Okay, I'll agree with this, but I will challenge you and take it a bit far because I think accepting it as 'it is what it is' or 'boys will be boys' is defeatist. These things can and do change, and often quite quickly. Fans, the media, and the league all have a role in rejecting the boys will be boys narrative.

But here we are talking about the type of humor that was prevalent and is likely prevalent in most locker rooms, because that is the nature of the group of people. How do you police humor? Everything is offensive to someone. To attempt to police out any interaction that would be potentially offense to anyone would be impossible.
This is a case of Monday Morning QBing, because it is being looked at in hindsight knowing now that Martin was offended. Had he voiced his discomfort, we would be having a different discussion.