Patriots vs Bengals Post-Game Thread

[Deus Irae]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

See answers in red.

No real need to continue since you refuse to acknowledge even your obvious misread regarding the "disappointment waiting to happen", and accused me of nitpicking when you were the one doing that in the first place when you broke down players and tried ascribing that comment specifically to them.

Expecting to be a great or even good team with your roster made up of players like thi]s[/B is a disappointment waiting to happen.

led to your rsponse of:

Just so we're clear. You think Fletcher, Boyce and Beauharnais are disappointments waiting to happen but Mulligan (or Develin) aren't.

He's talking team and you're talking individuals in a manner than Brady6 didn't intend and I clearly never claimed. It's not as if there's even a question as to whether you misread this or not. You clearly got it wrong.

You should learn to take your own advice about admitting mistakes.

 

[manxman2601]

One further thought on this whole roster thing. In my mind, except for TE which is partly beyond BB's control, this is probably the best roster we've had in years. Some will take issue over the WR part of the roster but I think we'll be fine there as the season progresses. Looking at it by position group:


QB - No change.

RB - Maybe weaker with the loss of Woodhead but that will hopefully be mitigated by an improving Vereen. Hard to judge with injuries.

WR - Arguably weaker in the short term but I think much stronger in time.

TE - Much weaker.

OL - Same. the same starters.

DL - Stronger. A second year Chandler Jones, a promising Buchanan and Tommy Kelly.

LB - Marginally stronger. Think we should be getting more out of Collins but Hightower is better this year than last so this unit is stronger.

CB - Stronger. Better depth with Ryan, Dennard starting from the start and Talib is lights out.

S - Stronger. Tavon Wilson isn't seeing the field


It's all about the offense. When that get's better, the doom-mongers are going to feel a little foolish.

 

[shmessy]

Fair enough my friend, I was extremely disappointed in the team yesterday it skud my view.

For the record with a day to cool off I can agree I do think the loss of Vereen hurts significantly and he would of been invaluable in that particular situation because of the weather, but even with a good nights sleep and a few good meals I still do not think him being on the roster changes the overall scope of the roster.

I am proud of the team being 4-1 it shows will and heart, but that doesn't mean its a prime NFL roster, all the injuries, jail terms, and adversity has decimated this roster which added to the inexperience equates to us on Oct 7th not having a good 53 man roster, that's all I can really say that and I really hope that it improves and the team continues to do what it has to do to win games.

Here's my take on the WR/RB situation.

This offense is far more like the 2001-2005 offense.

Lots of smurfs (aside from Gronk) who play roles and can thrive with those roles.

Does anyone remember the 2001-2005 Brady who would routinely complete passes to 6-8 players per game? The Pattens, Givens, Troy Browns, JR Redmonds, Kevin Faulks, etc. were not Megatrons or Mosses. They did their jobs perfectly on slants, screens and the occasional fly route.

Right now, with the inexperienced rookies and the injuries, we see Edelman and Amedola being called on to do much more than they will be called on for later when the team is more healthy (and actually has a TE).

Edelman and Amedola are not stars - - but they are lethal options in a diverse offense. Right now they are being called upon to "make something happen" - - that's not their forte. Add Vereen and Gronk to that mix and Brady won't be so limited in his options.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

No real need to continue since you refuse to acknowledge even your obvious misread regarding the "disappointment waiting to happen", and accused me of nitpicking when you were the one doing that in the first place when you broke down players and tried ascribing that comment specifically to them.



led to your rsponse of:



He's talking team and you're talking individuals in a manner than Brady6 didn't intend and I clearly never claimed. It's not as if there's even a question as to whether you misread this or not. You clearly got it wrong.

You should learn to take your own advice about admitting mistakes.

Expecting to be a great or even good team with your roster made up of players like this is a disappointment waiting to happen.

.....

• Jake Bequette
• Josh Boyce

• Nate Ebner
• Dane Fletcher
• Steve Beauharnais

How does this not say that the presence of these players on the roster lead to a disappointment waiting to happen? That's exactly what it says. Yes Brady6 is talking individuals, that's why he named them. He is categorically saying that these players being on the roster will lead to us having a bad or at least, less than good team. You concurred.

It's about as explicit as it gets.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

How does this not say that the presence of these players on the roster lead to a disappointment waiting to happen? That's exactly what it says. Yes Brady6 is talking individuals, that's why he named them. He is categorically saying that these players being on the roster will lead to us having a bad or at least, less than good team. You concurred.

It's about as explicit as it gets.

Is English not your first language?

 

[manxman2601]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Is English not your first language?

Deus goes ad hominem. There's a shocker.

We're clearly done here.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Deus goes ad hominem.

Not at all. It was a serious question. Since I don't know you personally, and given your screen name, I asked about the language thing. No offense or ad hominem attack was intended. If Manxman refers to the Isle of Man, you might have grown up with Gaelic (or some other language) as your first language. I was about to break down the Brady6 post for you, if English wasn't your first language.

Here, I'll do it anyway:

Notice how he starts his post:

The fact Belichick has this team at 4-1 right now is the greatest accomplishment of his career bare none, the current 53 man roster is pitiful and that’s putting it nicely.

Expecting to be a great or even good team with your roster made up of players like this is a disappointment waiting to happen.

That's the setup, or preamble, if you will, regarding what will follow. He then puts all the "players like this" into groups. The group you were focused on included the following:

• Jake Bequette
• Josh Boyce
• Duron Harmon
• Nate Ebner
• Dane Fletcher
• Steve Beauharnais

but they weren't being mentioned as players that were, in your words,

Just so we're clear. You think Fletcher, Boyce and Beauharnais are disappointments waiting to happen but Mulligan (or Develin) aren't.

They were listed as players who were

The healthy but contribute nothing:

You misread the post and asked me specifically about that group of players, but as disappointments waiting to happen rather than as healthy players contributing nothing. You continued to get it wrong even after I pointed it out to you. I think that Harmon is contributing more than 'nothing', and I noted that I found his inclusion in the group an arguable one, but that's about his placement in that specific group, not about overall roster.

 

[ATippett56]

One further thought on this whole roster thing. In my mind, except for TE which is partly beyond BB's control, this is probably the best roster we've had in years.

In the last two NFL Drafts, the New England Patriots have expended eleven selections on defensive players and only three selections on offensive players (all wide receivers). Overall depth on any NFL roster is an issue especially when a player of Vince Wilfork's stature lands on injured reserve.

As for the tight end position, Dallas Clark was ripe for the pickin' and the Baltimore Ravens signed Dallas Clark after dumping Visanthe Shiancoe.

Dallas Clark NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[manxman2601]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Not at all. It was a serious question. Since I don't know you personally, and given your screen name, I asked about the language thing. No offense or ad hominem was intended. I was about to break down the Brady6 post for you, if English wasn't your first language.

Here, I'll do it anyway:

Notice how he starts his post:



That's the setup, or preamble, if you will, regarding what will follow. He then puts all the "players like this" into groups. The group you were focused on included the following:



but they weren't being mentioned as players that were, in your words,



They were listed as players who were



You misread the post and asked me specifically about that group of players, but as disappointments waiting to happen rather than as healthy players contributing nothing. You continued to get it wrong even after I pointed it out to you. I think that Harmon is contributing more than 'nothing', and I noted that I found his inclusion in the group an arguable one, but that's about his placement in that specific group, not about overall roster.

In that case I apologise. Yes it is in answer to your question.

I have read and re-read that post time and time again and I cannot see where you think I'm wrong.

I'm happy to acknowledge that you were focused on the "The healthy but contribute nothing:" whereas I'm focused on "with your roster made up of players like this is a disappointment waiting to happen." so I'll happily withdraw my earlier comment and acknowledge my mistake with regards to you alone but until Brady6 clarifies, I can only see him saying that those players contribute to a roster that is a disappointment blah blah etc and that is just preposterous.

 

[manxman2601]

In the last two NFL Drafts, the New England Patriots have expended eleven selections on defensive players and only three selections on offensive players (all wide receivers). Overall depth on any NFL roster is an issue especially when a player of Vince Wilfork's stature lands on injured reserve.

As for the tight end position, Dallas Clark was ripe for the pickin' and the Baltimore Ravens signed Dallas Clark after dumping Visanthe Shiancoe.

Dallas Clark NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

If you remember, I was the one last year high on a couple of TEs in Nick Kasa and Gavin Escobar. But bearing in mind that we had Gronk, Hernandez and were waiting on Ballard, I can see why one wasn't drafted.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

In that case I apologise. Yes it is in answer to your question.

I have read and re-read that post time and time again and I cannot see where you think I'm wrong.

I'm happy to acknowledge that you were focused on the "The healthy but contribute nothing:" whereas I'm focused on "with your roster made up of players like this is a disappointment waiting to happen." so I'll happily withdraw my earlier comment and acknowledge my mistake with regards to you alone but until Brady6 clarifies, I can only see him saying that those players contribute to a roster that is a disappointment blah blah etc and that is just preposterous.

I apologize as well, since it's obvious that my question was able to be taken for an insult and I should have done a better job there.

As for the rest, I'd prefer to just agree to let it remain "as is" between you and I on this general topic (at least in this thread), and move forward rather than continuing with this discussion, if that's acceptable to you.

 

[ATippett56]

If you remember, I was the one last year high on a couple of TEs in Nick Kasa and Gavin Escobar. But bearing in mind that we had Gronk, Hernandez and were waiting on Ballard, I can see why one wasn't drafted.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

The issue with the tight end position was not the NFL Draft but free agency especially after Aaron Hernandez was cut. Last season, not only was tight end Visanthe Shiancoe signed after the NFL Draft but tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. was signed mid-season for one game.

 

[manxman2601]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

I apologize as well, since it's obvious that my question was able to be taken for an insult and I should have done a better job there.

As for the rest, I'd prefer to just agree to let it remain "as is" between you and I on this general topic (at least in this thread), and move forward rather than continuing with this discussion, if that's acceptable to you.

Absolutely.

 

[manxman2601]

The issue with the tight end position was not the NFL Draft but free agency especially after Aaron Hernandez was cut. Last season, not only was tight end Visanthe Shiancoe signed after the NFL Draft but tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. was signed mid-season for one game.

I just don't think the same TE opportunities were available this year because I think they held out on Sudfeld and Ballard for too long. Clearly wrong in the end.

 

[ATippett56]

I just don't think the same TE opportunities were available this year because I think they held out on Sudfeld and Ballard for too long. Clearly wrong in the end.

Jake Ballard was a gimp all pre-season and Daniel Fells supposedly suffered a concussion in the first pre-season game.

 

[Ivan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

A top ten defense by virtue of poor roster building! Amazing how that works.

They had the 3rd most productive offense in NFL history last season but lost Welker and Hernandez for good. They have one of the best defensive teams in football for the next few years and should only be getting better from here on out. Yet somehow they are "pitiful" in terms of roster construction? According to the critics they have been screaming about this since the season began, but in reality they have been screaming about this for the past 14 years, and somehow the Patriots have managed to become the most successful team of this era. unfortunately that's not enough for them, as any season that does not end with a Lombardi is a failure. They claim that winning is all that matters, yet when you ask them to name a team that wins more they defer and claim that isn't the point, the real point is what is in their imagination, which is a team that always wins and has no flaws. Maybe that is possible in Madden, and maybe in fantasy, but it isn't in real life, and their failure to understand that demonstrates that they really don't understand what they are talking about at all, otherwise they would realize that being the most successful franchise in football is directly related to those who actually run it.

 

[Ivan]

On a positive note for the always negative, someday their fantasies will come true. Belichick and Brady will retire and they will have some seasons where they once again truly do suck. So take heart, you will eventually be right, because if you predict the worst every year it will someday come true and you will actually be right for a change, even if it took a generation of negativity to come to fruition. Congratulations on your future "success" although you will have to forgive those of us who are actually enjoying the patriots as the best franchise in football, it's a once in a lifetime occurrence and we just can't help ourselves for thinking it is worth enjoying.

 

[Brady6]

Here's my take on the WR/RB situation.

This offense is far more like the 2001-2005 offense.

Lots of smurfs (aside from Gronk) who play roles and can thrive with those roles.

Does anyone remember the 2001-2005 Brady who would routinely complete passes to 6-8 players per game? The Pattens, Givens, Troy Browns, JR Redmonds, Kevin Faulks, etc. were not Megatrons or Mosses. They did their jobs perfectly on slants, screens and the occasional fly route.

Right now, with the inexperienced rookies and the injuries, we see Edelman and Amedola being called on to do much more than they will be called on for later when the team is more healthy (and actually has a TE).

Edelman and Amedola are not stars - - but they are lethal options in a diverse offense. Right now they are being called upon to "make something happen" - - that's not their forte. Add Vereen and Gronk to that mix and Brady won't be so limited in his options.

The thing about the offense that concerns me is it seems to lack an identity at this juncture in the season; what you mentioned about 2001-2005 was completely accurate in terms of the personnel being similar but that group knew what they were and played to their strengths, I am not seeing that this season thus far.

Our offensive personality belongs at McLean mental hospital:

Down 1: Spread offense w/Brady in the gun and 3-4 receivers running short underneath routes
Down 2: Power run offense w/Brady under center and 2 running backs in the I-formation behind him.
Down 3: Vertical offense w/Brady in the gun and 3 receivers running deep out patterns.
Down 4: Punting unit

Hopefully having Gronkowski and Amendola back now along with Vereen before the playoffs will give us the ability to keep players like Develin, Mulligan and even Hooman off the field in situations that are not goal line or short yardage, having these players on the field are handcuffing the team’s ability to create momentum in my opinion.

After Sunday I find myself reading about Mark Harrison and getting excited for his opportunity to come off PUP.

 

[DocHoliday]

The thing about the offense that concerns me is it seems to lack an identity at this juncture in the season; what you mentioned about 2001-2005 was completely accurate in terms of the personnel being similar but that group knew what they were and played to their strengths, I am not seeing that this season thus far.

Our offensive personality belongs at McLean mental hospital:

Down 1: Spread offense w/Brady in the gun and 3-4 receivers running short underneath routes
Down 2: Power run offense w/Brady under center and 2 running backs in the I-formation behind him.
Down 3: Vertical offense w/Brady in the gun and 3 receivers running deep out patterns.
Down 4: Punting unit

Hopefully having Gronkowski and Amendola back now along with Vereen before the playoffs will give us the ability to keep players like Develin, Mulligan and even Hooman off the field in situations that are not goal line or short yardage, having these players on the field are handcuffing the team’s ability to create momentum in my opinion.

After Sunday I find myself reading about Mark Harrison and getting excited for his opportunity to come off PUP.

A rookie isn't going to start practicing for the first time this year and contribute.

 

[Brady6]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

In that case I apologise. Yes it is in answer to your question.

I have read and re-read that post time and time again and I cannot see where you think I'm wrong.

I'm happy to acknowledge that you were focused on the "The healthy but contribute nothing:" whereas I'm focused on "with your roster made up of players like this is a disappointment waiting to happen." so I'll happily withdraw my earlier comment and acknowledge my mistake with regards to you alone but until Brady6 clarifies, I can only see him saying that those players contribute to a roster that is a disappointment blah blah etc and that is just preposterous.

I think the clarification is not so much in the context but in the way it was conveyed. The current state of the roster may not be pitiful but it is not prime for success either, now the word I used that I should not have used is “constructed” because the roster was not constructed to be what it is today, what it is today is as result of a lot of unfortunate circumstances.

The roster was constructed well, this is along the lines of how it could have looked:

QB: Brady | Mallett
RB1: Ridley | Blount | Bolden
RB2: Vereen | Washington
WR X: Thompkins | Dobson | Harrison | Slater
WR Z: Amendola | Edelman | Boyce
TE Y: Gronkowski | Ballard
TE Flex: Hernandez | Fells
LT: Solder | Svitek
LG: Mankins
OC: Wendell
RG: Connolly | Cannon
RT: Vollmer

LE: Ninkovich | Cunningham/Francis
DT: Kelly | Armstead
DT: Wilfork | Vellano
RE: Jones | Buchanan | Bequette
SLB: Hightower | Collins
MLB: Spikes | Fletcher
WLB: Mayo | C. White
LCB: Talib | Dowling
RCB: Dennard | Arrington | Ryan
FS: McCourty | Harmon
SS: A. Wilson | Gregory | Wilson

This is a roster prime to be in championship contention, pull the players in red out because of injuries, inability to recover and of course first degree murders charges and replace them with players like Develin, Mulligan and others and completely change the scope of the roster, you have those inexperienced rookies more essential roles where their rookie mistakes are not as easily overcome.

Will things improve if Gronkowski, Amendola and Vereen all return to full health? Absolutely! Is that guaranteed to happen though, we all held the position that when Gronkowski returned last season we’d be ready to make a super bowl run then he came out ran a deep out and reinjured his arm, so all that talk of “when” never came to fruition and personally I am not going to align myself for that same possibility this year, I am going to make an assessment on the current roster and if I grade the roster in its current state with the exception of Brady, Talib, Mayo and a handful of others it does not grade out well against other teams considered to be contenders.

My point in short is that my use of the word constructed was my fail, nobody constructed this roster this roster came as a result of adversity that I have never seen a NFL team experience in my 25+ years of following the NFL – which is why my opening sentence was that Belichick coaching it to a 4 and 1 record is the greatest achievement of his career bar none – so to reiterate I am not disappointed in this team, the coaching or general management of it, it is actually the opposite I am alighted, I am very disappointed that we’ve experience so much adversity and that the actions of a piece of **** like Aaron Hernandez prevented what could have been one of the best Patriots teams of the Brady era, which combining a slightly above average offense with this much improved defense would have made it in my opinion.

I hope this clarifies my stance, admittedly I was disappointed with Sunday’s game and my posting was based more on emotion than actuality.