Just How Much Do Dominant CB's Matter?

[pherein]

well lets see, look at the most recent SB winners

-NYG: no amazing cb's
-GB: yes, one
-NO: no amazing cb's (i dont think so anyways)
-steelers: no
-colts: no
-patriots: yes
-bucs: yes
-ravens: no

i also am unwilling to look at at pre2004 scenarios b/c since that rule change im sure a CB's importance has changed (not sure if greater or lesser though)

looking at that list though, i would say since rule change, no cbs dont matter

Greer was 2nd to revis that year, porter acually played well at 4.21 speed, Randal gay, Roman harper PB, Daren sharper, and we didnt have a good DS ?
I just think you might have to look deeper into this

Ed Reed is not any good ?

 

[jason423]

They really don't and if you are going to commit to one then you have to fill the secondary with top tier players, which is a reason why the Jets invested in Revis, Cromartie, and drafted Kyle Wilson in the first round. Wilsons a bust, but that was the plan. The problem with building around 1 corner goes to the Asomugha days in Oakland. A team goes into the game playing 10 on 10 and unless that team is so reliant on 1 WR they will smash up the rest of the undermanned team.

When Revis was ultra effective in 2009 it was because teams were not prepared for that pass rush (which was a big reason why Revis was so incredible that season) nor prepared for a player that was going to switch receivers all the time. For the most part corers are one side players and asking a QB to adjust on every play at the line was difficult. It was the Welker game in 2009 that convinced the Jets they better get a big upgrade over Lito Sheppard, but the Jets also telegraphed that game more than others because they wanted Revis on Moss exclusively. Really it took all the way until the playoffs for Manning to be the guy that made those pre-snap reads to always make the right choice and target the other players.

By 2010 I thought your team totally exposed it by just spreading the Jets out and forcing them to cover too many players. It totally negated Revis. And you saw it last year as well with teams going to 4 and 5 sets against the Jets and targeting Eric Smith, Jim Leonhard, David Harris, and Bart Scott on big play patterns. Its one of the reasons why I am so against the Jets going deeper into debt by overpaying Revis. Pass rushers are very hard to gameplan since they are always in position to rush and you cat just avoid him every play. Revis is far easier to scheme.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of course they matter. They can change an entire defense.

 

[pherein]

They really don't and if you are going to commit to one then you have to fill the secondary with top tier players, which is a reason why the Jets invested in Revis, Cromartie, and drafted Kyle Wilson in the first round. Wilsons a bust, but that was the plan. The problem with building around 1 corner goes to the Asomugha days in Oakland. A team goes into the game playing 10 on 10 and unless that team is so reliant on 1 WR they will smash up the rest of the undermanned team.

When Revis was ultra effective in 2009 it was because teams were not prepared for that pass rush (which was a big reason why Revis was so incredible that season) nor prepared for a player that was going to switch receivers all the time. For the most part corers are one side players and asking a QB to adjust on every play at the line was difficult. It was the Welker game in 2009 that convinced the Jets they better get a big upgrade over Lito Sheppard, but the Jets also telegraphed that game more than others because they wanted Revis on Moss exclusively. Really it took all the way until the playoffs for Manning to be the guy that made those pre-snap reads to always make the right choice and target the other players.

By 2010 I thought your team totally exposed it by just spreading the Jets out and forcing them to cover too many players. It totally negated Revis. And you saw it last year as well with teams going to 4 and 5 sets against the Jets and targeting Eric Smith, Jim Leonhard, David Harris, and Bart Scott on big play patterns. Its one of the reasons why I am so against the Jets going deeper into debt by overpaying Revis. Pass rushers are very hard to gameplan since they are always in position to rush and you cat just avoid him every play. Revis is far easier to scheme.

I agree with some of this but think the Jets are a bad example. Cromartie never really did what he was payed for. Creating a weak point.
My point is I would rather have 2 Revis at CB, and a Ed reed safety with Shaper as FS at his prime.
Then 3 P. willis LB's, or 3-4 DeMarcus Ware on the DL.

You pick your poison but cant have it all.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Just How Much Do Dominant CB's Matter?

How much does a dominant WR matter? Since a dominant CB can neutralize a dominant WR I'd say they're as impactful as the WR they're covering.

 

[Rob0729]

They really don't and if you are going to commit to one then you have to fill the secondary with top tier players, which is a reason why the Jets invested in Revis, Cromartie, and drafted Kyle Wilson in the first round. Wilsons a bust, but that was the plan. The problem with building around 1 corner goes to the Asomugha days in Oakland. A team goes into the game playing 10 on 10 and unless that team is so reliant on 1 WR they will smash up the rest of the undermanned team.

When Revis was ultra effective in 2009 it was because teams were not prepared for that pass rush (which was a big reason why Revis was so incredible that season) nor prepared for a player that was going to switch receivers all the time. For the most part corers are one side players and asking a QB to adjust on every play at the line was difficult. It was the Welker game in 2009 that convinced the Jets they better get a big upgrade over Lito Sheppard, but the Jets also telegraphed that game more than others because they wanted Revis on Moss exclusively. Really it took all the way until the playoffs for Manning to be the guy that made those pre-snap reads to always make the right choice and target the other players.

By 2010 I thought your team totally exposed it by just spreading the Jets out and forcing them to cover too many players. It totally negated Revis. And you saw it last year as well with teams going to 4 and 5 sets against the Jets and targeting Eric Smith, Jim Leonhard, David Harris, and Bart Scott on big play patterns. Its one of the reasons why I am so against the Jets going deeper into debt by overpaying Revis. Pass rushers are very hard to gameplan since they are always in position to rush and you cat just avoid him every play. Revis is far easier to scheme.

I agree. I think there are two changes to the NFL in recent years that have seriously reduced the significance of the dominant CB:

• The rise of the spread offense which you mentioned
• The rise of the TE

You explained why the spread offense makes the dominate CB less important.

As for the rise of the TE, that is pretty easy. Most TE attack parts of the field that usually are not the #1 CB's strong point. Also, many CBs are too small to take on the Gronks, Hernandezes, and Grahams of the world.

Personally, I don't think there is any one player who can make that much of a difference on the defense (with a few notable exceptions). I don't think a dominant CB is any more important than a dominant pass rusher. In fact, I think I would rather have a dominant pass rusher.

 

[Rob0729]

Of course they matter. They can change an entire defense.

Name the CBs today who change the entire defense. And do you think they change the defense anymore than a dominant pass rusher?

Right now if you look around the league and the defensive POY candidates are mostly pass rushers, not CBs. Guys like JJ Watt and Clay Matthews are doing more for their defense than the top CBs. Watt changes the entire defense the same way Revis does.

 

[Rob0729]

How much does a dominant WR matter? Since a dominant CB can neutralize a dominant WR I'd say they're as impactful as the WR they're covering.

I don't think a dominant WR is nearly as important either. Some elite ones might make a difference, but overall teams that were great offenses last year had multiple great receiving options rather than one completely dominant one. Teams like the Pats, Saints, and Packers had at least one receiver in the top ten in receiving yards (well the Saints had a TE and the Pats had a WR and TE), but not one of them are the classic dominant WR in the vain of Megatron or Fitzgerald or even lesser WRs like Roddy White or Steve Smith.

 

[jason423]

Name the CBs today who change the entire defense. And do you think they change the defense anymore than a dominant pass rusher?

Right now if you look around the league and the defensive POY candidates are mostly pass rushers, not CBs. Guys like JJ Watt and Clay Matthews are doing more for their defense than the top CBs. Watt changes the entire defense the same way Revis does.

If you look at the numbers of a pressurized QB vs that of a QB going up against the best CB in the game they are virtually equal. The big difference is that a pass rusher factors in on every pass play. He can potentially get to the QB on any down. A corner has plays that by design he will never be involved in. If a team had 1 WR and nobody else they could be as important as a pass rusher. But teams spread the ball around. Not only that but the corner is virtually useless on a running play. 3 down rushers will at least contribute.

 

[Deus Irae]

Name the CBs today who change the entire defense. And do you think they change the defense anymore than a dominant pass rusher?

Revis

I haven't seen enough of the Eagles this year to know is Asomugha is still at that level, but he was when he was in Oakland

Bailey, until about 3 years ago

Woodson was in this class for a couple of years in Green Bay

Oddly enough, Samuel changed the Eagles' defense last year, with his dislike of man coverage, but that's not the sort of change you necessarily want

Do they change a defense more than a dominant pass rusher? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Did Sanders change a defense more than LT? I think that would make for an interesting discussion if you could get their coaches together.

Right now if you look around the league and the defensive POY candidates are mostly pass rushers, not CBs. Guys like JJ Watt and Clay Matthews are doing more for their defense than the top CBs. Watt changes the entire defense the same way Revis does.

I agree that the DPOY candidates are more the DE/OLB guys than the CBS, although I'd probably disagree with your reasoning of "why". I don't agree that Watt and Matthews are doing more for their defense than Revis (Frankly, I don't think they're close). No one player in the NFL changes his team's defense as much as Revis does, IMO, unless it's Polamalu.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you look at the numbers of a pressurized QB vs that of a QB going up against the best CB in the game they are virtually equal. The big difference is that a pass rusher factors in on every pass play. He can potentially get to the QB on any down. A corner has plays that by design he will never be involved in. If a team had 1 WR and nobody else they could be as important as a pass rusher. But teams spread the ball around. Not only that but the corner is virtually useless on a running play. 3 down rushers will at least contribute.

A truly dominant cornerback can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme.

 

[jason423]

I don't think a dominant WR is nearly as important either. Some elite ones might make a difference, but overall teams that were great offenses last year had multiple great receiving options rather than one completely dominant one. Teams like the Pats, Saints, and Packers had at least one receiver in the top ten in receiving yards (well the Saints had a TE and the Pats had a WR and TE), but not one of them are the classic dominant WR in the vain of Megatron or Fitzgerald or even lesser WRs like Roddy White or Steve Smith.

My opinion on WRs has always been that they are way too dependent on other players to truly be a dominant factor for 16 games. You need a QB to get you the ball. You need a line that can block for the QB. You probably even need a running game to keep defenses honest. Just look at Arizona post Kurt Warner. Fitzgerald hasnt made a difference at all and hes a great player. Smith did nothing in Carolina once Delhomme fell apart and he lost his secondary WR. The players in the league are so good its not like in college where the WR runs 10 yards open on every play. The windows are still tight for the QB. The great ones just reel in a few that were probably not going to be complete, fight to gain extra yards, and always run the right route to lessen the chance of the miscommunication incompletion or ever worse interception.

I think they are game enhancers and occasionally can have a game that they do dominate, but I think the overall impact is not that high. Id much rather have 2 mid priced receivers and a good TE than 1 high priced WR and nobody else.

 

[RayClay]

A great cornerback, you can build a defense around, though i think they are less essential than years ago because teams tend to attack with many different players rather than one dominant receiver.

Obviously great to have and it makes your whole defense better.

 

[ProudestRyno]

We haven't had Greer in for a full game yet. If you look up his numbers he's one of the most underrated CB in the NFL I think. He consistently trails revis.
The most he played was 3 quarters against GB, and it has made a huge impact. QB pass to our rookie white all day.
I think they are devastating to young QB's (RG3, Cam) or good QB's (cassel,smith), but against elite QB's like Brady, Rogers they make them shift their game plan to avoid them, but are good enough to make the throw.
To effect a elite QB, having a good day, I believe you need a couple Dominate DL men and at least 1 dominate CB.
SF49ers has that with Smith, Tukuafu, and C. Rogers. Add P Willis and you have a problem even for a elite QB. I was pretty amazed how Brees carved them up without Graham or Thomas. But that usually is not going to happen.
Like BigT make a good point, Revis has won some games for the Jets , just on fear. Qb's watch his tape and can't find a window to throw in.
When we scorched the Texans , Greer basically covers Johnson perfectly. Thats not easy to do.
Personally Id trade P. Willis for a Greer, Revis, Rogers in a second. Id rather have a solid DS lineup than a solid LB core in this pass happy league, but thats just me .

You don't rate CBs by stats that show up in box score...To say Greer, Carlos Rogers are elites CBs on the same tier as Revis is hilarious.

And what's with the "we" talk. Are you on the Saints? Are you in the front office (our rookie white...)?

 

[ProudestRyno]

Greer was 2nd to revis that year, porter acually played well at 4.21 speed, Randal gay, Roman harper PB, Daren sharper, and we didnt have a good DS ?
I just think you might have to look deeper into this

Ed Reed is not any good ?

In what?



And last I checked, Ed Reed isn't a CB. You really don't seem to know your stuff, man....

Nothing more annoying than reading someone say "we this, we that" (as if youre on the team), all the while not saying anything that is actually correct.

 

[UK_Pat37]

I'd change the thread title to 'Just how much does a dominant pass rush matter'.

Shutdown corners like Revis are few and far between. You can make a poor secondary look elite with a top pass rush.

 

[randomk1]

I'd change the thread title to 'Just how much does a dominant pass rush matter'.

Shutdown corners like Revis are few and far between. You can make a poor secondary look elite with a top pass rush.

This. A stud rusher can impact a game on every down.

As much as i hate the giants i think they have all the right pieces. A good QB,stud receivers that make plays for him and a top pass rush.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't think a dominant WR is nearly as important either. Some elite ones might make a difference, but overall teams that were great offenses last year had multiple great receiving options rather than one completely dominant one. Teams like the Pats, Saints, and Packers had at least one receiver in the top ten in receiving yards (well the Saints had a TE and the Pats had a WR and TE), but not one of them are the classic dominant WR in the vain of Megatron or Fitzgerald or even lesser WRs like Roddy White or Steve Smith.

You're talking about 2 different things. A great WR has a huge impact on the success of the offense, do you think Matt Stafford would have throw for anything close to 41TDs last season without a receiver like Megatron? Even if Johnson doesn't get the ball he's still having an impact on offensive success because of how the defense is reacting to him.

I would certainly prefer to have many very good receiving options like Green Bay as opposed to just one great one like Johnson but that doesn't mean having a great one doesn't have a tremendous impact.

 

[Ring 6]

A truly dominant cornerback can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme.

But the current rules make a dominant corner extremely rare.
When you stack the odds against the defense its hard for a defender to have as much impact.

 

[Rob0729]

A truly dominant cornerback can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme.

A truly dominant defensive player no matter the position can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme. But you are talking about a handful of players in the league. Same way with a dominant offensive player with opposing defenses.

Teams have to radically change their schemes for guys like Matthews, Watt, Ed Reed (back in the day), Polumalu (back in the day), Patrick Wilis, JPP, etc. It is just a different way. Against Clay Matthews may have to leave their pass catching TE in for most of the game to block. Against Willis, a team has to radically alter their running game. Back when they were great, you had to avoid throwing in the direction of Reed and Polumalu like you would Revis or Bailey in his prime.