Just How Much Do Dominant CB's Matter?

[Ring 6]

A truly dominant defensive player no matter the position can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme. But you are talking about a handful of players in the league. Same way with a dominant offensive player with opposing defenses.

Teams have to radically change their schemes for guys like Matthews, Watt, Ed Reed (back in the day), Polumalu (back in the day), Patrick Wilis, JPP, etc. It is just a different way. Against Clay Matthews may have to leave their pass catching TE in for most of the game to block. Against Willis, a team has to radically alter their running game. Back when they were great, you had to avoid throwing in the direction of Reed and Polumalu like you would Revis or Bailey in his prime.

The inpact of individual players (other than QB) is severely overrated.
Ray Lewis isn't stopping a running game even in his prime without a good rest of the front 7 around him and a scheme that protected him from 300lb OL getting on him.
Revis may be able to take away a receiver, but you can easily scheme to diminish the importance of his man to the play calls.
Same thing with pass rushers. There are many games when the best of them are totally neutralized.

 

[Deus Irae]

This. A stud rusher can impact a game on every down...

Please name me one "stud rusher" that impacts a game on every down. With Seymour no longer being quite the Seymour he once was, I can't think of a single one currently playing in the NFL. JJ Watts looks like he could become the next one, but it's too soon to tell.

But the current rules make a dominant corner extremely rare.
When you stack the odds against the defense its hard for a defender to have as much impact.

I think truly dominant players have pretty much always been very rare. We're in sort of a QB golden age, and we've got, arguably, 4 truly dominant QBS (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees), and I think it's fair to question at least two of them.

A truly dominant defensive player no matter the position can change an opponent's entire offensive scheme. But you are talking about a handful of players in the league. Same way with a dominant offensive player with opposing defenses.

I agree, for the most part, although I'd say most positions as opposed to "no matter the positions". I think that's an inherent problem with the O.P. question.

Teams have to radically change their schemes for guys like Matthews, Watt, Ed Reed (back in the day), Polumalu (back in the day), Patrick Wilis, JPP, etc. It is just a different way. Against Clay Matthews may have to leave their pass catching TE in for most of the game to block. Against Willis, a team has to radically alter their running game. Back when they were great, you had to avoid throwing in the direction of Reed and Polumalu like you would Revis or Bailey in his prime.

Pretty much sums it up, although I wouldn't put Matthews or JPP in the group, and I think it's a bit early to be sure about Watts

 

[PatsDeb]

I think they matter a lot. You always believed Ty Law was going to make several big plays every game (and usually he did). We are always looking for that guy that ws just like him. Wish we could find him and button down that segment of the defense.

 

[Rob0729]

Please name me one "stud rusher" that impacts a game on every down. With Seymour no longer being quite the Seymour he once was, I can't think of a single one currently playing in the NFL. JJ Watts looks like he could become the next one, but it's too soon to tell.

Name a stud CB who impacts the game on every down. Do teams not run in Revis direction? How does he affect a play that is screen pass to the RB in the flat or a TE up the seam. A stud CB only affects plays that would be designed to go to his side of the field or in Revis' case, the primary WR. It may affect the gameplan to go to the TE or run the ball more, but he certainly doesn't affect every play in the game.

I think truly dominant players have pretty much always been very rare. We're in sort of a QB golden age, and we've got, arguably, 4 truly dominant QBS (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees), and I think it's fair to question at least two of them.

I agree with this.

I agree, for the most part, although I'd say most positions as opposed to "no matter the positions". I think that's an inherent problem with the O.P. question.

I agree with this. There are some positions in certain defensive schemes that the player doesn't demand that respect even if he is totally dominant. Wilfork is a good example. He demands respect, but because of the nature of his position and how he is used (well other than this and last year maybe) he doesn't demand that type of gameplanning.

Pretty much sums it up, although I wouldn't put Matthew in the group

This year, Matthews has demanded that respect, but it is a long year. He could have started out hot especially against some suspect o-lines and QBs who have a history of holding onto the ball too long.

 

[Deus Irae]

Name a stud CB who impacts the game on every down. Do teams not run in Revis direction? How does he affect a play that is screen pass to the RB in the flat or a TE up the seam. A stud CB only affects plays that would be designed to go to his side of the field or in Revis' case, the primary WR. It may affect the gameplan to go to the TE or run the ball more, but he certainly doesn't affect every play in the game.

Revis impacts how you call a game, both in the pass and in the run. To me, that's impacting every play. Not one current "stud rusher" does that.

This year, Matthews has demanded that respect, but it is a long year. He could have started out hot especially against some suspect o-lines and QBs who have a history of holding onto the ball too long.

Matthews has had good seasons, but I wouldn't consider him truly dominant. Certainly, against the run, he's a liability more than a strength.

Also, on a side note, if I were going to talk about a "dominant" pass rusher, I'd be looking at Allen or Peppers before Matthews.

 

[zoostation]

How many games has Revis single handedly won for the Jets?

I think a dominant CB is over rated because of the price they currently go for, having 2 above average corners with good safeties is probably far better in terms of balance.

Ask the Jets fans if they'd rather have Revis as the highest paid player on the team or have an elite quarterback making the most money.

The smart ones (if there are any) would all chose the second option.

 

[VrabelJr]

This isn't a scientific measurement or anything but-

Manning was mostly stymied by the Pats until Ty Law was cut. Since then he's 4-1 v. the Pats, or close to that anyway.

As for Brady? His only win v. the Broncos until last season came the year before Champ Bailey showed up, since then a shut out until 2011.

There are so many factors that go into winning and losing - yes. But to have such a clear correlation between the two best QB's of this generation and how they fared against a dominant CB on a good team, well, it's interesting if nothing else.

These are against John Fox's Broncos, not Mike Shanahan's Broncos. BB has said in the past Shanahan is one of the most difficult coaches to go against.

 

[VrabelJr]

The scariest thing to me about this game isn't Peyton Manning. It's that he has the best running game he's had since 2006, the best O Line he's had since 2006 or 2007, and the best defense he's probably ever had. WRs aren't as good as he had back in the day but they are young and have that ability to go off and have big games at any given moment. It's going to be interesting but I believe in the Pats!

 

[pherein]

You don't rate CBs by stats that show up in box score...To say Greer, Carlos Rogers are elites CBs on the same tier as Revis is hilarious.

And what's with the "we" talk. Are you on the Saints? Are you in the front office (our rookie white...)?

Hmm I feel kind of awkward at the moment....kind if like when your trying to explain something to a blond Hawaiian Topic contestant and look at your friend wide eyed because
because she thinks a ballot was something fought in Gettysburg.

I understand that you dont know much about Greer, not many do. He's one of the most underrated guys on defense in the NFL.
Why dont you take some time and read some of his stats, and not be to heavy handed next time. Greer can cover almost as well as Revis. 2011 he played with a dislocated shoulder and could not put his arms above his head, but they still played him...um that tells you something.

2009
Welome To Jabari Greer's Island | Bleacher Report

2010
Did Revis get robbed of DPOY honor? - AFC East Blog - ESPN

and yep, all our fans feel like we are part of the Saints.

 

[pherein]

In what?



And last I checked, Ed Reed isn't a CB. You really don't seem to know your stuff, man....

Nothing more annoying than reading someone say "we this, we that" (as if youre on the team), all the while not saying anything that is actually correct.

My premiss is that the DS, is more import to me then the LB core or DL. That includes CB's
Reed is a part of the DS as a FS.

.. and...Yes I agree, it is annoying chatting with people with low comprehension skills, and don't bother to get things correct.

 

[ausbacker]

My premiss is that the DS, is more import to me then the LB core or DL. That includes CB's
Reed is a part of the DS as a FS.

.. and...Yes I agree, it is annoying chatting with people with low comprehension skills, and don't bother to get things correct.

I'd be interested to see a poll where people are questioned with the following;

You have pick 1 in the NFL Draft and there are 3 can't miss players on defense all with a draft grade of 99 (DL, LB, DB). Which player do you take?

It would be interesting if that was put to scouts, coaches and GM's.

 

[pherein]

I'd be interested to see a poll where people are questioned with the following;

You have pick 1 in the NFL Draft and there are 3 can't miss players on defense all with a draft grade of 99 (DL, LB, DB). Which player do you take?

It would be interesting if that was put to scouts, coaches and GM's.

Wow, that would be a great poll. Id like to see that.

To me I just believe that if you had to keep 2 of the things ok, but one elite, Id have and all elite DS. OK DS get destroyed by guys like Rogers and Terrorbyte ( hehe dont know why I like that nickname for TB)
If you have and elite DL they can be negated by an elite OL, even an elite LB core can.
But and elite DS vs a elite WR core is going to make some turnovers and force a great passing team like NE or GB to run the ball. I might be wrong.
I mean Ronnie Lott S, Ed Reed FS, Deion Sanders CB, Rod Woodson CB.
You have some serious passing problems,lol

 

[JoeSixPat]

The question of whether dominant CBs make a difference depends on the Defense.

In Belichck's D everyone has a role to play. Even if we lose key players, Belichick can still often enact his defense using third stringers and WRs in the secondary. Heck, he's won Super Bowls with teams like that.

Other defenses that are less zone oriented in the NFL certainly depend on a dominat CB

Belichick would rather pass on a dominant CB intent on padding his stats by gambling on oan INT but blowing his role, and opt for a lesser known player intent on playing his role.

 

[Joker]

JUST DO YOUR JOB

This philosophy leads to winning which leads to chances for a ring...you can have 5000 Ronnie Lotts but if your special teams are weak, you'll still lose....sometimes by wide margins.

 

[pherein]

JUST DO YOUR JOB

This philosophy leads to winning which leads to chances for a ring...you can have 5000 Ronnie Lotts but if your special teams are weak, you'll still lose....sometimes by wide margins.

good point, but please don't say JUST DO YOUR JOB anymore, lol, its a sore spot with us. No one is, lol

 

[Joker]

It's not an easy thing to get players to do these days...it's all about narcissistic man-children with other worldly ability that constantly want to mug for the camera on every single play, who do not practice hard, do not perform their tasks correctly, do not understand that running your mouth on your Twitter account gives INCENTIVES to the enemy and who repeatedly screw up. especially in crunch time...there's tons of these players spread throughout the league as anyone who's been watching the past few decades can attest...for every Miles Austin on a team you have a Dez Bryant...that should form a consistently top of the line WR rotation but as we've seen over and over,Bryant is all about "Me!!! Me!! Me!!! Look at me!!! Everyone watch me!!" and when it's time for plays that WIN the game, he's practically useless and in fact a DETRIMENT to winning.

Contrast this mindset with that on consistent winners like GB,NYG,Pitt and NE and it's easy to see...those teams do their job player by player. The league and the players union both seem to feel that "WWE starpower!!" is the way to move forward though, as the owners dole out obscene contracts like the Holmes embarrassment based on little more than running one's mouth in the press

 

[alvinnf]

IMO Darrell Revis is the best player in the NFL. He changes the terms on which the game is played on. Watch the Jets implode for proof, his absence will sink that team. DR gives a mediocre roster and a mediocre coach a chance to win each week.

 

[ausbacker]

Wow, that would be a great poll. Id like to see that.

To me I just believe that if you had to keep 2 of the things ok, but one elite, Id have and all elite DS. OK DS get destroyed by guys like Rogers and Terrorbyte ( hehe dont know why I like that nickname for TB)
If you have and elite DL they can be negated by an elite OL, even an elite LB core can.
But and elite DS vs a elite WR core is going to make some turnovers and force a great passing team like NE or GB to run the ball. I might be wrong.
I mean Ronnie Lott S, Ed Reed FS, Deion Sanders CB, Rod Woodson CB.
You have some serious passing problems,lol

All fair points pherein. Personally, I'd still be inclined to build a Fearsome Foursome first.

 

[ausbacker]

IMO Darrell Revis is the best player in the NFL. He changes the terms on which the game is played on. Watch the Jets implode for proof, his absence will sink that team. DR gives a mediocre roster and a mediocre coach a chance to win each week.

I still think Tom Brady is the best player in the NFL. I may be somewhat biased.

 

[pherein]

All fair points pherein. Personally, I'd still be inclined to build a Fearsome Foursome first.

I think your opinion is sound. As sound as mine,lol

I wish someone had a breakdown of:

DL: ok , LB: ok , DS: Elite

VS

DL: Elite, LB: ok , DS: ok