The Deep Ball

[Brady_to_Moss]

You can tell him and lloyd are still getting use to one another. It should come around. Hopefully by mid season

Already he is 1000% better than ocho. Actually runs routes and catches balls. Who would have known!?

 

[Deus Irae]

... You can never use "if " to prove a point...

That's a silly, and obviously false, claim.

 

[12ClutchFactor]

If Welker makes that catch, the Pats win the Super Bowl. There, see I just used "if" successfully.

Edit: Obviously kidding.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

if the jets didn't suck....they would still suck

 

[condon84]

1.) Lloyd wasn't behind the defense to any significant degree. The defender was right with him, on his side.

Lloyd had a step on the defender. Had the ball thrown in the direction Lloyd was already running in, he could have run under it instead of trying to turn around to make a difficult catch.

2.) You're making an assumption as to who was at fault in terms of the angle Lloyd took. Given that Brady's been in the system longer and spent years throwing deep balls to the greatest deep ball wide receiver in the history of American football, why would you assume that Lloyd was in the right here?

No I'm not making an assumption, you are. What I'm commenting on is what I saw on the field.

Brady's time spent throwing to the best deep ball WR of all time is irrelevant to this argument.

3.) Even if you're correct about who got the read correct, that's still just a "not yet on the same page" issue as opposed to a bad throw issue, which means it's a non-issue for the purposes of this thread and this thread is wrongheaded. Which brings us back to my initial position.

LOL. Okay. Good job, good effort.

 

[Deus Irae]

Lloyd had a step on the defender. Had the ball thrown in the direction Lloyd was already running in, he could have run under it instead of trying to turn around to make a difficult catch.

The question in your mind should be why Brady would make that throw only about 3 feet off to the middle if this was really supposed to be a true post. What's more likely, although I'm not the one making the initial claims and assumptions, is that Lloyd drifted further left than he was supposed to. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that the location of the ball and the manner of the later discussion makes that the more likely occurrence. Assuming Lloyd ran the proper route would mean that Brady was a good 5+ yards off on his throw.

No I'm not making an assumption, you are. What I'm commenting on is what I saw on the field.

Brady's time spent throwing to the best deep ball WR of all time is irrelevant to this argument.

I didn't make any assumption at all. You made the assumption. I simply asked you to explain your position. Your explanation is a lousy one, because it's entirely guesswork and runs counter to both history and what we saw between the pair after the play.

 

[condon84]

The question in your mind should be why Brady would make that throw only about 3 feet off to the middle if this was really supposed to be a true post. What's more likely, although I'm not the one making the initial claims and assumptions, is that Lloyd drifted further left than he was supposed to. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that the location of the ball and the manner of the later discussion makes that the more likely occurrence. Assuming Lloyd ran the proper route would mean that Brady was a good 5+ yards off on his throw.



I didn't make any assumption at all. You made the assumption. I simply asked you to explain your position. Your explanation is a lousy one, because it's entirely guesswork and runs counter to both history and what we saw between the pair after the play.

You are making assumptions. You're assuming Brady was chewing Brandon out because he made the wrong read.

Brady throwing to the wrong shoulder is what happened. It's not an assumption. If you want to assume that Lloyd should have turned the other way before Brady threw the ball, then so be it.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are making assumptions. You're assuming Brady was chewing Brandon out because he made the wrong read.

Brady throwing to the wrong shoulder is what happened. It's not an assumption. If you want to assume that Lloyd should have turned the other way before Brady threw the ball, then so be it.

That would be valid if I were actually doing that. Since I was merely countering your assumptions with information you didn't note, and with other options, however, it's not valid.

Again, you made a claim and I asked you to explain it. You've not been able to do so, and you've just tossed out a guess.

 

[woolster22]

I think most can agree that tb and Lloyd aren't completely in sync yet. They have figured out the intermediate outside throws, and that tells me they will get it figured out. Brady had never been the kind of an that drops bombs in on a regular basis. He's super Pennington on steroids. Superb manager, amazing diagnostic skill, incredibly accurate to twenty five yards, writes in the back of his head (although one has been poked out and the other seems to be closing up on him this season....) Hitting the guy in stride down the side line...not so much. He never was, and never will be that guy. The year with Randy, that was lightning in a bottle, and will not happen again. He doesn't need that though.

He just needs to hit Lloyd/gronk/?1/?2 deep enough and often enough to meet defenses honest. Once or twice a game should suffice.

 

[condon84]

That would be valid if I were actually doing that. Since I was merely countering your assumptions with information you didn't note, and with other options, however, it's not valid.

Again, you made a claim and I asked you to explain it. You've not been able to do so, and you've just tossed out a guess.

What assumption did I make? That Lloyd had to turn around to try to make that catch? LOL. Did you watch the game because that's what really happened.

Meanwhile in Deus land:

What's more likely, although I'm not the one making the initial claims and assumptions, is that Lloyd drifted further left than he was supposed to. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that the location of the ball and the manner of the later discussion makes that the more likely occurrence. Assuming Lloyd ran the proper route would mean that Brady was a good 5+ yards off on his throw.

You're trolling won't work on me though for too long. I'm done with you. Good job, good effort.

 

[UK_Pat37]

You are making assumptions. You're assuming Brady was chewing Brandon out because he made the wrong read.

Brady throwing to the wrong shoulder is what happened. It's not an assumption. If you want to assume that Lloyd should have turned the other way before Brady threw the ball, then so be it.

Are you referring to week one?

It's all on Lloyd. That was a 'chair' route. An in-cut, three steps and turn up field.

Having played QB, my coach would always emphasise on any flare route or any route like a hitch-go, out-go etc, that ball MUST be thrown on the outside shoulder. The logic behind this is that the safety help is on the inside and if you miss throwing to he outside shoulder it is what we call a 'good miss'. If yu miss throwing inside the probability of a pick dramatically increases. You always throw away from the inside help.

Therefore Lloyd is obliged to look over his outside shoulder. He looked over his inside and therefore lost sight of the ball that was correctly being thrown this outside shoulder. Turning inside does a couple of things; 1) you're supposed to fade your route slight to the outside to create more separation so, if you turn inside, you drag yourself in field towards the safety and away from where the ball is being thrown; and 2) you slow yourself down.

Lloyd looked over his wrong shoulder, this effected his ability to run that route and he had to stop, turn around and this is what blew that play up.

 

[Mack Herron]

Are you referring to week one?

It's all on Lloyd. That was a 'chair' route. An in-cut, three steps and turn up field.

Having played QB, my coach would always emphasise on any flare route or any route like a hitch-go, out-go etc, that ball MUST be thrown on the outside shoulder. The logic behind this is that the safety help is on the inside and if you miss throwing to he outside shoulder it is what we call a 'good miss'. If yu miss throwing inside the probability of a pick dramatically increases. You always throw away from the inside help.

Therefore Lloyd is obliged to look over his outside shoulder. He looked over his inside and therefore lost sight of the ball that was correctly being thrown this outside shoulder. Turning inside does a couple of things; 1) you're supposed to fade your route slight to the outside to create more separation so, if you turn inside, you drag yourself in field towards the safety and away from where the ball is being thrown; and 2) you slow yourself down.

Lloyd looked over his wrong shoulder, this effected his ability to run that route and he had to stop, turn around and this is what blew that play up.

Reiss commented that as in the SB Brady saw safety help where there was none. I didn't see it either--I thought Brady could have led Lloyd to the post and required no adjustment on the receiver's part. This year he has had Lloyd and Gronk wide open behind the D and could not connect on either one. They could have caught the balls, but Brady also could have thrown balls that were easier to catch. I cannot place 100% of the blame on the receivers.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The throw to Lloyd and to Gronk. Were those incomplete passes the receivers fault?

Cute response... Generally speaking, yes. It's the WR's job here to be where Brady wants him to be. And Gronk was moving like he's wearing cement cleats with a defender in his back pocket. Brady will throw high, wide or low depending on coverage to avoid the turnover. Belichick once admonished Cassel that a game is not lost over an incomplete pass. You push the envelope in pre season so you know what you can and can't get away with in season. By 2009 Brady had to learn to come to grips with the fact that certain throws were no longer a given with Moss. He was unable to establish this pre season what if anything was a given with Lloyd (whose calling card is random ability to catch difficult balls in coverage but we have seen mixed results here through week 2). And Gronk was clearly not the same player this pre season as he was prior to the injury last season for whatever reason. Hernandez appeared to be but now he's not...

 

[condon84]

Are you referring to week one?

It's all on Lloyd. That was a 'chair' route. An in-cut, three steps and turn up field.

Having played QB, my coach would always emphasise on any flare route or any route like a hitch-go, out-go etc, that ball MUST be thrown on the outside shoulder. The logic behind this is that the safety help is on the inside and if you miss throwing to he outside shoulder it is what we call a 'good miss'. If yu miss throwing inside the probability of a pick dramatically increases. You always throw away from the inside help.

Therefore Lloyd is obliged to look over his outside shoulder. He looked over his inside and therefore lost sight of the ball that was correctly being thrown this outside shoulder. Turning inside does a couple of things; 1) you're supposed to fade your route slight to the outside to create more separation so, if you turn inside, you drag yourself in field towards the safety and away from where the ball is being thrown; and 2) you slow yourself down.

Lloyd looked over his wrong shoulder, this effected his ability to run that route and he had to stop, turn around and this is what blew that play up.

I'm talking about week 2.

 

[upstater1]

Brady has never been good with the deep ball, it's not part of his game and there are many stats out there to show that he pretty much sucks at it.

When he had Randy Moss, he was great at the deep ball.

When he had David Givens, Deion Branch, Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Jabar Gaffney, etc., (i.e. receivers who have never been deep threats in the NFL) he wasn't good at the deep ball.

 

[condon84]

Cute response... Generally speaking, yes. It's the WR's job here to be where Brady wants him to be. And Gronk was moving like he's wearing cement cleats with a defender in his back pocket. Brady will throw high, wide or low depending on coverage to avoid the turnover. Belichick once admonished Cassel that a game is not lost over an incomplete pass. You push the envelope in pre season so you know what you can and can't get away with in season. By 2009 Brady had to learn to come to grips with the fact that certain throws were no longer a given with Moss. He was unable to establish this pre season what if anything was a given with Lloyd (whose calling card is random ability to catch difficult balls in coverage but we have seen mixed results here through week 2). And Gronk was clearly not the same player this pre season as he was prior to the injury last season for whatever reason. Hernandez appeared to be but now he's not...

So are you blaming Gronk for that missed connection?

 

[borg]

Lloyd got behind the defense and was running towards the left post. Brady threw it where Lloyd had to turn back to his right to try to catch it.

It's always the receivers fault......On long balls last year, receivers screwed up 14 out of 15 times

 

[upstater1]

Reiss commented that as in the SB Brady saw safety help where there was none. I didn't see it either--I thought Brady could have led Lloyd to the post and required no adjustment on the receiver's part. This year he has had Lloyd and Gronk wide open behind the D and could not connect on either one. They could have caught the balls, but Brady also could have thrown balls that were easier to catch. I cannot place 100% of the blame on the receivers.

One is a big TE who can't adjust to the ball as well as fleet receivers.

The other guy was well covered and the ball should have never been thrown.

If you're talking about last week, that's on Lloyd.

No one complained about Brady's deep balls when he was throwing to Moss. That's because, as with all NFL QBs, Brady needs a WR who can adjust to the ball in stride and come down under it. I think Lloyd is one such receiver, but I doubt he'll get many chances because he's not a speed demon out there.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Reiss commented that as in the SB Brady saw safety help where there was none. I didn't see it either--I thought Brady could have led Lloyd to the post and required no adjustment on the receiver's part. This year he has had Lloyd and Gronk wide open behind the D and could not connect on either one. They could have caught the balls, but Brady also could have thrown balls that were easier to catch. I cannot place 100% of the blame on the receivers.

Whichever game, whichever pass the law is throw that to the outside on those straight Up routes. Doesn't matter if the safety is there or not. Just throw it to the outside every time. It's simple and keeps you in sync.

If a receiver is running a flat, an out-go or any form of go route you are NEVER taught as a QB to lead a guy to the past. That route is specifically supposed to be run with a slight angle on the numbers and the ball should always be thrown to the outside...it's just footballing 101. Simple rules for a QB.

I don't think I was ever taught an occasion on any form of 'go' route where my coach would let me throw it inside.

 

[upstater1]

So are you blaming Gronk for that missed connection?

I blame Gronk's mother and father. Seriously, he's a TE. TE's are not usually found 60 yards downfield tracking down long balls.