Cutdown Day: PATS DISCUSSION thread

[mgteich]

I don't see us in a roster numbers crunch at all. We have 17 front seven defenders and need 14-15, with Forsten, Francis and Rivera vulnerable. We have a spot for Waters. MacDonald is vulnerable to a free agent OT pickup. Bolden is vulnerable to a RB upgrade.

Shiancoe could even be put on IR to open a roster spot for a wide receiver next week.

IMHO, we could add Waters and five free agents tomorrow and not have any really difficult roster decisions. We have lots and lots of flexibility.

We even could find an upgrade in the defensive backfield. We have the room, but these guys are hard to find. I think that we'll keep the 10 that we have.

If roster spots are that valuable and/or money is a concern as they also find themselves in a roster talent crunch...might have been a good idea to teach some one of Bill's incredible new swiss army knives to long snap in the off season.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

What I have an issue with is HC's asking (as opposed to fans preferring) players to hang around and return if needed for game day checks given the risks we are increasingly aware they all to often face these days. What I have an issue with is lack of accountability when we're carrying close to $20M in dead cap against a $128M cap and close to half of it was the result of gross miscalculation. What I have an issue with is the thought of Brady going down in a heap and being out for 3-4 weeks with a high ankle sprain or MCL injury or seperated shoulder and having to rely on The Hammer. I also have an issue that is partly with a so called union that allows a team to artificially restrict a player for 5 months without paying him a nickel beyond camp per diem and then waive him at final cutdowns with no financial penalty. Hoyer hasn't had a paycheck since last January, and he has a wife and child to support. Apparently the team had no faith in The Hammer coming off last season, but when they learned in May he had dropped his body fat to 10% during the off season everything changed (except of course for his performance, it was their perception of his potential that changed). I'm now convinced that had Welker not signed his tender they might well in fact have cut him too...

I haven't decided yet whether Belichick has lost his mind under a freakin' blue moon or whether he's letting the genius who drafted Tebow and got canned in Denver make too many roster decisions.

I now also have an idea what Brady was probably unloading on Wilfork the other night...

Watch your back from here on out, Tommy Boy. Not to mention while keeping your head on a swivel this season.

 

[mgteich]

1) I agree that the players' union should be a higher priority on Training Camp and pre-season pay.

2) I do not agree in agreements that expect players to wait for the phone to ring with no compensation for the privilege. On the other hand, I see little problem with an older veteran who is will to sign a non-guaranteed contract. This can only be done after Game 1.

3) I like the patriots attitude toward the Practice Squad. It make sense to pay players more if they value them. Paying a player the roster minimum instead of Practice Squad pay essentially makes the roster larger.

What I have an issue with is HC's asking (as opposed to fans preferring) players to hang around and return if needed for game day checks given the risks we are increasingly aware they all to often face these days. What I have an issue with is lack of accountability when we're carrying close to $20M in dead cap against a $128M cap and close to half of it was the result of gross miscalculation. What I have an issue with is the thought of Brady going down in a heap and being out for 3-4 weeks with a high ankle sprain or MCL injury or seperated shoulder and having to rely on The Hammer. I also have an issue that is partly with a so called union that allows a team to artificially restrict a player for 5 months without paying him a nickel beyond camp per diem and then waive him at final cutdowns with no financial penalty. Hoyer hasn't had a paycheck since last January, and he has a wife and child to support. Apparently the team had no faith in The Hammer coming off last season, but when they learned in May he had dropped his body fat to 10% during the off season everything changed (except of course for his performance, it was their perception of his potential that changed). I'm now convinced that had Welker not signed his tender they might well in fact have cut him too...

I haven't decided yet whether Belichick has lost his mind under a freakin' blue moon or whether he's letting the genius who drafted Tebow and got canned in Denver make too many roster decisions.

I now also have an idea what Brady was probably unloading on Wilfork the other night...

Watch your back from here on out, Tommy Boy. Not to mention while keeping your head on a swivel this season.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Maybe the Pats already got the exclusion for Waters, and are now seeing if they get any of their claims awarded.

I suspect that is also why a guy like Fortson made the 53, they can waive him later if they need his spot and with teams rosters mostly settled, he has a better chance to slip to the PS.

He is more likely to slip through waivers when he is one of 600+ then when he is one of one. If he is better than a guy they have at his position, it doesn't take much to release that player.

 

[Metaphors]

QB - I've always said that with Belichick, you are either moving up or moving out. I guess Mallett needed the practice reps as a #2 to develop.

RB - Too bad on the Demps situation. Hopefully he makes the best of it and kills it starting next spring.

FB - Don't like fullbacks on a team trying to get defenders away from the middle of the field.

TE - Shiancoe is a surprise but he was really effective as a red zone threat before Favre and McNabb imploded in consecutive years. I don't see the need to get hung up on whether Hernandez is on the TE, WR or RB depth chart. He will be on the field all the time and be moved around everywhere to create mismatches.

WR - Here are the stats for the last 5 years for the 3rd WR on the Pats depth chart:

15/278/1
24/432/3
37/359/1
38/468/2
46/697/3

Two things to notice...a) These stats are nothing major that couldn't be handled by any number of WRs or absorbed by other targets and b) These numbers are declining as the TE-centric offense has developed.

Don't you need 5+ WRs on the roster? The stats for 4th and 5th WRs are almost non-existent. What if someone gets hurt? I wouldn't be surprised to see 1 or 2 on the practice squad and a number of familiar faces on speed dial after week #1.

OL - The Pats almost always have 9 (7 active and 2 inactive). Waters is likely already slotted into a roster spot and McDonald will be a gameday inactive (with Wendell or Thomas) pending injury.

DL - More than are needed, but someone has to be inactive and Forston is likely to pull a "Ventrone" as injury replacements are needed off the practice squad. Also think Francis will be inactive unless he can take on more ST reps.

LB - If Mike Rivera sees the field, the season will have veered off in an unfortunate direction. Forget Forston...Rivera is the leading candidate to get "Ventroned" early. Except I doubt he finds his way back quite as often.

CB - Probably one more than is needed, with Moore likely keeping a spot warm while Dennard recovers and develops.

S - No real surprises except how competent Ebner looked as a safety. Could be an illusion but it is nice to have you pure ST guys be able to muck in when needed (like Arrington and White have done previously).

So this roster seems to make sense. More flexible on offense with TEs and RBs able to split wide without changing personnel. Defensive focus on rush guys (both interior and ends) and LBs that can move around and do multiple things. Dennard, Rivera, Francis, Bequette, Forston, McDonald and Bolden positioned as gameday inactives with Rivera/Forston likely bouncing back-n-forth to the PS.

 

[patfanken]

Having Mallett as the only backup QB is a concern. I don t see him as often as BB does, obviously, but the kid doesn't look ready to me.

And I can't tell you how comforting that thought is to almost everyone on this board.

I can't tell you how funny these "Oh, I'm so worried about what will happen if Brady goes down" comments over and over again. Well why don't you ask what will happen to the Packers if Rogers goes down, or Bears if Cutler goes down, or the Broncos if Manning goes down, etc, etc etc.

Tell me DI back in 2009 when BB not only went with only 2 QBs on the roster the one he picked was an UDFA. I'm gonna bet you were worried about that all season. Or how about back in 2008 when the unthinkable DID happen, especially after Cassell had a preseason worse than anything Hoyer or Mallet put up. Remember the calls for Gutts. Or lets go back to 2001 How many here were all in a sweat when we found out that BB was going to have some 6th round nobody back up Drew Bledsoe. Why can't it be some guy with some upside at least like Micael Bishop.

I'll tell you a little secret, but you have to promise not to tell a soul, because this is really super secret inside stuff. The kind of info it takes years to accumulate. This is the kind of knowledge that you have to go far and wide to find out. OK? So here it is.

If you have a franchise level QB and he gets hurt..... YOU ARE F##CKED!

Now don't tell anyone, because if this got out to the masses, people would be in shock.

All there is left is to do the best you can, and whether it was Brian Hoyer or Ryan Mallet its not likely to get you to the superbowl (though if you are the Patriots, you still will win a lot of games.)

BOTTOM LINE - If left with the prospect of playing with a back up QB, I'm pretty sure I'm ready to go with the guy BB felt was best suited for the job. you know I hear he has a pretty good track record for replacing injured QB's.

 

[ATippett56]

WR - Here are the stats for the last 5 years for the 3rd WR on the Pats depth chart:

15/278/1
24/432/3
37/359/1
38/468/2
46/697/3

Two things to notice...a) These stats are nothing major that couldn't be handled by any number of WRs or absorbed by other targets and b) These numbers are declining as the TE-centric offense has developed.

Don't you need 5+ WRs on the roster? The stats for 4th and 5th WRs are almost non-existent. What if someone gets hurt? I wouldn't be surprised to see 1 or 2 on the practice squad and a number of familiar faces on speed dial after week #1.

The New England Patriots currently have only four wide receivers on the 53 man roster. As for the 4th and 5th wide receivers, Edelman and Slater already fit your aforementioned non-existent production, since both provide greater value on special teams than at wide receiver.

Hopefully, the New England Patriots will re-sign Deion Branch tomorrow once the practice squad roster has been finalized. Thus, Deion Branch will fulfill the 3rd wide receiver role.

 

[Sciz]

The New England Patriots currently have only four wide receivers on the 53 man roster. As for the 4th and 5th wide receivers, Edelman and Slater already fit your aforementioned non-existent production, since both provide greater value on special teams than at wide receiver.

Hopefully, the New England Patriots will re-sign Deion Branch tomorrow once the practice squad roster has been finalized. Thus, Deion Branch will fulfill the 3rd wide receiver role.

There was no reason to cut Branch today if they were just going to resign him tomorrow. He's either not coming back, is coming back after week 1 (contract no longer guaranteed), or wouldn't have been cut in the first place.

Gaffney, on the other had, I think will be back once he's healthy.

 

[ATippett56]

TE - Shiancoe is a surprise but he was really effective as a red zone threat before Favre and McNabb imploded in consecutive years.

At the age of 32, I question how much Shiancoe has left in the tank. Shiancoe hasn't seen the practice field in nearly a month. In addition, Shiancoe has not previously played in the New England Patriots style sight adjusted offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

There was no reason to cut Branch today if they were just going to resign him tomorrow. He's either not coming back, is coming back after week 1 (contract no longer guaranteed), or wouldn't have been cut in the first place.

Gaffney, on the other had, I think will be back once he's healthy.

While I agree that bringing Branch back right away doesn't seem to make sense, I also see a roster without enough WRs. Would Belichick really go into that first game with just 3 WRs on the roster?

 

[strngplyr]

I just like Stallworth. No particular reason other than he was an integral part of that 2007 wide receiver corps with Gaffney, Moss and Welker that I can see Mcdaniels getting the same results again, with Lloyd in Moss's spot.

And Brady seems to have a rapore with him as he did in 07,

Other than that, I just like what I have seen from Stallworth. Nothing great, but enough know how and experience to be a factor.

No quarterback has ever had a "rapore" with Stallworth and he was not an integral part of the 2007 offense, he was immediately replaced by Moss and later benched in favor of Gaffney.

He can't get open against 2nd and 3rd string DBs on defenses lacking talent.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

While I agree that bringing Branch back right away doesn't seem to make sense, I also see a roster without enough WRs. Would Belichick really go into that first game with just 3 WRs on the roster?

So long as he's comfortable with Edelman in the backup role I see no reason why not. What's more, he may well feel that the TE's on the roster can take up any slack if need be.

 

[Sciz]

While I agree that bringing Branch back right away doesn't seem to make sense, I also see a roster without enough WRs. Would Belichick really go into that first game with just 3 WRs on the roster?

I could see it. Even if we assume both Lloyd and Welker go down, the Pats could line up Edelman, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Fells, and an RB. Not ideal, but good enough to get you through a game.

 

[Deus Irae]

I could see it. Even if we assume both Lloyd and Welker go down, the Pats could line up Edelman, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Fells, and an RB. Not ideal, but good enough to get you through a game.

That lineup blows, and blows hard. There may not be a team in the NFL that couldn't stop it. Bracket Gronk and put a CB on Hernandez, then collect your winnings.

 

[Finnishfan]

Considering the WR situation, I personally think that they will bring one of the veterans back on a restructured deal. They basically have to. They cant go to the season with just 1 true wideout, 2 slot receivers and 1 special teamer.

Demps obviously goes to the IR becouse they feel like he is a work in progress and dont want others to sign him. Reiss is still not sure whether the IR move for him is legal or not, so we will have to wait and see about that.

What confused me a bit was the LB choices. I think Koutouvides should have been a gimmie, becouse of his all-around capabilities (Coverage, run stop and ST). Rivera was so good against the Giants in week 4 of preseason, that keeping him is understandable. But why keep Tracy White over Niko?

 

[Sciz]

That lineup blows, and blows hard. There may not be a team in the NFL that couldn't stop it. Bracket Gronk and put a CB on Hernandez, then collect your winnings.

How many teams can do better if you take away their top two WRs?

 

[doesntmatter1]

Finnishfan. White is better than koutivides in every way. He is without a doubt better at kickoff coverage by sheer stats alone(more tackles than slater at one point last year). And he is actually not bad in coverage at all. I don't understand why he took so much heat from the giants game for 2 catches. The first one could've been prevented by chung and the second one was a freaking 1 yard playaction pass after he chose to honor the run. After guyton got benched after the steeler game(finally) white permanently replaced him and offenses stopped attacking our linebackers so much and went after our secondary more. White didn't always take on blocks properly but he kept improving and became pretty well rounded by the end of the season.

Koutivides seems okay but he slips off tackles too often for a guy his size. He also had his shot last year in the colt game and after he couldn't cover their te he never really seen the field again for any meaningful snaps. And he was slipping off tackles this preseason as well so....

Tarp. I have been against him since last year. I don't even want him on the practice squad. Imo, he is the weakest linebacker i have seen suit up in a pats uni. His coverage is so-so and he just gets yanked up by linemen in the run game. In the eagle game, the center kelce blocked him from the middle of the field all the way till they were out of bounds. Just embarrassing. He showed absolutely no improvement from last year.

So basically rivera and white got their spots from a lack of true competition after fletcher went down. I predicted the oline and linebackers correctly. I for some reason thought malcolm williams would have made this roster off his strong special teams alone. I hope they put him on the practice squad.

 

[supafly]

I predicted the oline and linebackers correctly. I for some reason thought malcolm williams would have made this roster off his strong special teams alone. I hope they put him on the practice squad.

Yes you certainly did, props for calling Mike Rivera too :rocker:

I cannot say that I saw that one coming.

 

[Finnishfan]

How many teams can do better if you take away their top two WRs?

Many, in case you take away just their #1 wideout and #1 slot receiver. Most teams go into this year with 3 or even 4 pure wideouts. Usually the 4th is a young developmental guy, but most teams have at least 1 guy to rotate 2 wideout sets.

I mean we cannot even field a spread formation with our current roster. At least not a credible one. Or if Hernandez would line up on the outside with Lloyd and Edelman and Welker would line up inside with Gronk on the line, that would be ok.

But that spread formation is 1 injury away from being a formation we cannot deploy.

 

[Finnishfan]

Finnishfan. White is better than koutivides in every way. He is without a doubt better at kickoff coverage by sheer stats alone(more tackles than slater at one point last year). And he is actually not bad in coverage at all. I don't understand why he took so much heat from the giants game for 2 catches. The first one could've been prevented by chung and the second one was a freaking 1 yard playaction pass after he chose to honor the run. After guyton got benched after the steeler game(finally) white permanently replaced him and offenses stopped attacking our linebackers so much and went after our secondary more. White didn't always take on blocks properly but he kept improving and became pretty well rounded by the end of the season.

Koutivides seems okay but he slips off tackles too often for a guy his size. He also had his shot last year in the colt game and after he couldn't cover their te he never really seen the field again for any meaningful snaps. And he was slipping off tackles this preseason as well so....

Tarp. I have been against him since last year. I don't even want him on the practice squad. Imo, he is the weakest linebacker i have seen suit up in a pats uni. His coverage is so-so and he just gets yanked up by linemen in the run game. In the eagle game, the center kelce blocked him from the middle of the field all the way till they were out of bounds. Just embarrassing. He showed absolutely no improvement from last year.

So basically rivera and white got their spots from a lack of true competition after fletcher went down. I predicted the oline and linebackers correctly. I for some reason thought malcolm williams would have made this roster off his strong special teams alone. I hope they put him on the practice squad.

Thanks for the input. I really had nothing against White, but I felt like Koutouvides showed some impressing play in this preseason.

I watched that preseason week 4 game against the Giants twice, and Niko and Rivera were the two standout guys from that game. And despite I'm sure that Giants 1st team offense was propably on just to try some schemes or roles, those backup guys still played a SB winning starter group and basically shut them down.

Based on tape of that game, Niko should have made it. But if White truely is better in coverage or overall, then we are in good hands with our LB corps.