OT: Vilma walks on out Bounty-Gate hearing

[lurker1965]

Well, turns out there are only 200 pages right, lol ? The NFL was exaggerating greatly, again to the fans and we knew it. So they were right to ask. They never had to answer.
...

Either that or he is deliberately holding back.

I do not think Goodell is this stupid. I think he is acting stupid for a reason.

BTW, I welcome him under oath.

 

[patfanken]

I have to admit to not having read the entire thread, and I apologize in advance if any of my thoughts are redundant.,

1. I commend Pherein for his impassioned defense of his team. I think he's dead wrong on the major points of this issue, but I still admire his persistence and restraint.

2. This isn't a question of whether the Saints had a bounty system that was proven and admitted to a few years ago. It was discovered, admitted to, and the Saints organization were told to get rid of it.

The Saints are being punished MORE for the fact that after being told by the league to stop, they continued with the practice and then lied to the league about it being gone Don't forget that the Pats weren't punished for Spygate until after there wer.e several warnings to stop.

3. All these allegations that the league fabricated evidence is just a well planned classic misdirection. Its a PR magicians trick to get the public to question the obvious result.

4. The major defense of the league is simple. They had absolutely NOTHING to gain by "fabricating" these allegations. If they didn't exist, why make them up? This whole thing is a black eye for the league. I'm sure given a choice they would love to have it disappear.

NO was the league's feel good story for god's sake. The Saints were the poster child for the positive effects of an NFL franchise on a city. There is NO way that they would purposely do anything to tear that down.....UNLESS there was clear and undisputed evidence that this was not only going on, but was going on for a long period of time

You can argue about the severity of the punishment. You can legitimately argue about the fairness of the punishment to the players who were participating in a team sponsored policy. But what you CAN'T argue about is the fact that the bounty program existed and the league needed to get rid of it.

 

[pherein]

Either that or he is deliberately holding back.

I do not think Goodell is this stupid. I think he is acting stupid for a reason.

BTW, I welcome him under oath.

I think he is. Ive dealt with high level CEO's my whole life. From 4 star generals to others way higher. People project intelligence to these men. I see Goodell as just another CEO that does not understand the product.
Hes a business man not a lawyer, and ego driven. He wants his face and name out there. He doesn't care about football or players or fans. IF he did he would have done this a long time ago, before the law suits.
No, Goodell cares about his mark. Usually behind this kind are the real smarts, that got them to this level.
If he wasn't incompetent he would have handled the Saints better, and the situation better.

Goodell is never backing down, his ego won't allow it. Their will be no reduction of fines or anything. Ive seen his kind before. He's not smart, he's simple.

I agree he will break under oath.
If fujita can say "What the hell are you doing, Roger?" and he turns red, says a lot about a man.
Hes a cupcake in the corperate world. If it happened.
That he never expected to be challenged on a personal level? was surprised a employee didn't cow tow, but attacked him ? Goodells response to Fujita speaks for its self about the man.

 

[Ring 6]

Were pretty confused to Andy,lol. Its not like we have any answers.

If Goodell did exactly what MoLewisrocks said. I don't believe this would have ever gotten this out of hand. I put it to our forum and they all agreed.

No, I said Hargrove was never told to lie. He was told by the Saints coaches what he should say. Hargrove is not the smartest guy in the world.
Even I would talk to him before he talked to the NFL and say " Look kid, this is serious business, you need to tell them we have no bounty program here, and be very clear about that, these guys are serious".

Ok, so a lot of what the NFL has said has been proven wrong or misinterpreted. I call it incompetent.

But,you would rather believe that their is a huge conspiracy theory with the Saints ?
That SP ,the mastermind, and benson, are telling everyone to do this, and for people to shut up ?
That this is somehow orchestrated on the Saints to cover this all up?

I mean, pick your side for a conspiracy theory. So far none of the players or coaches have been proven to be lying at all. While the NFL and Goodell have been incompetent on a number of ocasions.

How is it a conspiracy theory when Hargrove admits he was coached to say nothing was going on when he admits something was?

We don't think their is a conspiracy theory, we think they messed up, jumped the gun, and are trying to pump out info to support their claim of a bounty program, but their really instant any.

THAT is the conspiracy theory. As if the NFL was out to get the Saints. In reality they found them violating the rules, let them slide with a warning, and they still didn't stop.

Im not creating a conspiracy theory, Im asking why are they doing this?
I mean its silly to be wrong this many times. It makes them look silly, and makes everyone not trust what they say next. Why say theses things at all?


How many times do the NFL and Goodell have to be proven wrong before other fans think, hmm thats weird ?
apparently more than 10,lol.
Has anyone Saints coach , owner,or player made statements that later was found to be complete lie or fabrication of the truth ?

But there aren't lies or fabrications, only in your conspiracy theory.

If you can get proof from that tape of a organized bounty system in NO, be my guest. As for me its just a really embarrassing tape, that proves very little.

So there is tons of evidence of payments to players, admission that there were bounties and a coach imploring players to try to injurre opponents, and that is all OK with you?
The attempt to injure is wrong, and suspendable even if they weren't offering a bounty.

 

[pherein]

So there is tons of evidence of payments to players, admission that there were bounties and a coach imploring players to try to injurre opponents, and that is all OK with you?

Hmm typical

List it.

[QUOTE]So there is tons of evidence of payments to players,[/QUOTE]

List it

admission that there were bounties and a coach imploring players to try to injurre opponents

List it

yes andy Im calling you a lier if you can't list and prove this. Im pretty sick of posting this many times, love you man

 

[Ring 6]

Hmm typical

List it.

As you said, Google it. There are tons of examples, you just want to pretend they don't exist.

List it



List it

yes andy Im calling you a lier if you can't list and prove this. Im pretty sick of posting this many times, love you man

The tape was an explicit example of a coach imploring players to injure opponents. If you can't see that you are too biased to have an honest conversation.
The fact that you would resort to call me a liar because I cited two things that are pub lic knowledge shows you cannot even come close to being objective.

Did or did npt Williams encourage players to injure opponents in that speech?

 

[pherein]

But there aren't lies or fabrications, only in your conspiracy theory.



So there is tons of evidence of payments to players, admission that there were bounties and a coach imploring players to try to injurre opponents, and that is all OK with you?
The attempt to injure is wrong, and suspendable even if they weren't offering a bounty.

Name one payment? andy your entire thought falls short on that simple fact.

Your being silly and saying TONS, to impress, truth is you can't name 1 single payment to anyone. explain Tons to me please. Should be pretty easy for you.

 

[Ring 6]

The NFL also presented printed reproductions of handwritten notes, which White said show Fujita pledging $1,000 to a pool for sacks and forced fumbles during the regular season, and $2,000 during the playoffs to a "general pool," which she said in part paid for injury-inducing plays.

The note indicated safety Roman Harper, who was not punished, pledged $5,000 to the general pool, and that assistant head coach Joe Vitt pledged $5,000 to knock then-Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre out of the NFC title game.

Fujita acknowledges he offered teammates cash for big plays, mainly because "that's the way it was done when I was a young player and I kind of looked at that as paying it forward."

Fujita sees bounty probe as part smear campaign - SFGate

The audio -- released by the league Monday -- originated from a sideline exchange between assistant coach Joe Vitt and Saints defensive players in the third quarter. Vitt alerts his players -- erroneously as it turned out -- that Brett Favre would be out of the game with a serious leg injury.

Hargrove, who is not seen in the NFL Films camera shot, purportedly says to teammate Bobby McCray, "Bobby, give me my money." The league has alleged there was at least a $35,000 bounty on Favre in the game.

Note: the 'defense' here is Hargrove says its not his voice. Well even if he is right, it was someone elses.

Anthony Hargrove: Not my voice in 'bounty' video - NFL.com

• The testimony from disgraced defensive coordinator Gregg Williams to the league, in which he said he knew the program "was rolling the dice with player safety and someone could have been maimed."

• The charge, from what the league said was a handwritten note from a Saints defensive coach, that the defense pledged $35,000 for a defender to knock Brett Favre out of the January 2010 NFC Championship Game -- including a $5,000 pledge to the kitty from current Saints interim coach Joe Vitt. (Vitt denies the charge.)

The three sources the NFL claims to have who told league investigators linebacker Jonathan Vilma spurred the bounty on Favre by offering $10,000 himself during a night-before-the-game motivational speech by, as one of the sources said, "raising his hands, each of which held stacks of bills, that he had two 'five-stacks,''' to give to the player who knocked Favre from the game.

• The PowerPoint slide collected from a sweep of the Saints' computer system, from the night before the Saints' playoff loss at Seattle in January 2011, complete with a picture of TV bounty hunter Duane "Dog'' Chapman, that said, "Now is the time to do our job ... collect bounty $$$! No apologies! Let's go hunting!''

Nice one by the way

• The ledger sheet from an October 2009 game that showed safety Roman Harper due $1,000 for a "cart-off'' of Giants running back Brandon Jacobs in the second quarter, forcing Jacobs to leave the field for several plays.

Read more: NFL reveals 'overwhelming evidence' to reporters in Saints case - Peter King - SI.com

That was about 10 minutes of Googling.
Do I really need to go on, or am I lying that all of this exists?

Note that "I didn't do it" is not proof that you didn't do it.

 

[Ring 6]

Name one payment? andy your entire thought falls short on that simple fact.

Your being silly and saying TONS, to impress, truth is you can't name 1 single payment to anyone. explain Tons to me please. Should be pretty easy for you.

I just listed a number of them in the last post. It took less than 10 minutes to find all of those examples.

 

[pherein]

A
The fact that you would resort to call me a liar because I cited two things that are pub lic knowledge shows you cannot even come close to being objective.

Ok, I just want to understand the rules.
Its ok for your fans to call vilma a Fu@@ as@, D@ck, and our players complete F@cking pieces of dirt, but I'm offending you by saying your lying and need to prove it?

I can list the profanity easy.

that correct?

 

[Ring 6]

Ok, I just want to understand the rules.
Its ok for your fans to call vilma a Fu@@ as@, D@ck, and our players complete F@cking pieces of dirt, but I'm offending you by saying your lying and need to prove it?

I can list the profanity easy.

that correct?

Did I call Vilma those things?
Do you think people who do have some justification, correct or not, to call him that?
How do you then conclude that since some other person called a player on the team you root for names, that it is OK for you to call me a liar when you ask for examples that there are many of, before I even respond.
I said there were examples. You called me a liar. I showed examples you defended calling me a liar because other people called some guy on the Saints names.
Do I really have to explain how far off the track of reality that is?

 

[Ring 6]

Ok, I just want to understand the rules.
Its ok for your fans to call vilma a Fu@@ as@, D@ck, and our players complete F@cking pieces of dirt, but I'm offending you by saying your lying and need to prove it?

I can list the profanity easy.

that correct?

But thanks for proving how objective you are by stating that your reason for making that comment to me is that someone somewhere called a player on the Saints some bad names.
That just reeks of objectivity in your argument.

 

[pherein]

I just listed a number of them in the last post. It took less than 10 minutes to find all of those examples.

of course it didn't, lol , Im so proud of you,lol.
to funny

 

[Ring 6]

of course it didn't, lol , Im so proud of you,lol.
to funny

Let me get this straight.
You deny any evidence exists.
You call me a liar.
I show it to you and tell you it took less than 10 minutes to find it, and that is all you have for a response?

 

[Ivan]

Name one payment? andy your entire thought falls short on that simple fact.

Your being silly and saying TONS, to impress, truth is you can't name 1 single payment to anyone. explain Tons to me please. Should be pretty easy for you.

Pherein, I don't blame you for backing your team but the evidence against Williams is undeniable, even his staunchest defenders, such as Tim Ryan, who works with Kirwan on NFL Radio, admitted the tape was unlike anything he had ever heard and was absolutely disgraceful. And the audio of Hargrove shrieking he had knocked Favre out of the game and "I want my money" was also undeniable. I don't know anything about the cases against fujita and Smith but I do believe Vilma was heavily involved and i think the NFL has gthe evidence on paper to prove. A 1 year suspension is severe and i think it should be cut in half because of the argument Schlereth made on NFL Live the other day, which was essentially that he recieved the same suspension as Payton but will pay a much higher price because Payton can make it back easily, whereas Vilma is at the end of his career and cannot do the same.A year off could seriously harm his career at this point, and that's a compellling argument for reducing the suspension imo.

Overall I think the NFL has the proof and they also warned the Saints to cut it out and those warnings were ignored by everyone in their organization, which is also the reason the Patriots got nailed for having a camera where it should not have been, Belichick didn't take the warning seriously and paid the price for it.

 

[Why?PJ]

What these players are refusing to accept is that any money in any pool for anything is against the NFL rules. And also they all lied for 3 years about it.

The punishment is as harsh as it is because of those two facts. And these players whining and crying like they are won't help them at all.

I still believe the entire saints defense should be banned from the NFL for life to make sure no one else ever starts a pot for anything again. Let's be honest here, it isn't like they were ever any good.

 

[Deus Irae]

NFL painted itself into a box with bounties - Boston.com

If you read the whole thing, it has something on an incident with the Packers towards the end of the piece.

 

[patfanken]

Pherein, I hate to break up your love fest with Andy, but I still don't have your take on the point I brought up. What is the motive for the NFL to make up all this evidence to persecute the Saints. You've heroically tried to prove a conspiracy, yet you haven't provided the MOTIVE. WHY has the league decided to go after the franchise that has so recently best represented the positive effect of having an NFL franchise in your city. Still waiting....

 

[Joker]

Pherein, I hate to break up your love fest with Andy, but I still don't have your take on the point I brought up. What is the motive for the NFL to make up all this evidence to persecute the Saints. You've heroically tried to prove a conspiracy, yet you haven't provided the MOTIVE. WHY has the league decided to go after the franchise that has so recently best represented the positive effect of having an NFL franchise in your city. Still waiting....

NY Giant versus NY Jet Super Bowl in New Jersey in 2014...Goodell, the New York metro area big shot from the New York political/business arena damaging any strong competitors that get in the way of the dream NY/NY Super Bowl and the billions of dollars of revenue both legal and *ahem" (nod nod wink wink) otherwise for HIS inner circle of NEW YORK scions.

It's the oldest motive there is ...M-O-N-E-Y....

 

[Ivan]

NY Giant versus NY Jet Super Bowl in New Jersey in 2014...Goodell, the New York metro area big shot from the New York political/business arena damaging any strong competitors that get in the way of the dream NY/NY Super Bowl and the billions of dollars of revenue both legal and *ahem" (nod nod wink wink) otherwise for HIS inner circle of NEW YORK scions.

It's the oldest motive there is ...M-O-N-E-Y....

If Roger Goodell can get the Jets into the Super Bowl in 2014 then he really is Vince McMahon in disguise. The Jets are going downhill fast and will be worse in 2 years than they were last year, the idea they will magically appear in the SB is pretty crazy and i can pretty much guarantee it won't happen. Goodell had no reason to go after the Saints other than that they gave him absolutely no choice by their actions. The only conspiracy here is the one that the Saints front office kept to themselves when they decided to completely disregard the league and continued running bounties for 2 more years.