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OT: Vilma walks on out Bounty-Gate hearing

Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by DaBruinz, Jun 18, 2012.

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  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jonathan Vilma walks out on bounty appeal, rips Roger Goodell - NFL - Sporting News


    I found this statement funny because they've already gone to the two Special Masters that the NFLPA and NFL agreed to and both Masters said that Goodell was within his right to levy the punishments that he did.

    And, since when is there any sort of "due process" beyond the Commish saying "You broke this rule, here is your punishment"?? This isn't a criminal trial or a civil one. It's one that you agreed to via the CBA.
  2. MoLewisrocks

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    This is just playing for the audience. I guess the hearings are all over now. 12 members of the media were invited in to view evidence. Per Peter King who was calling for NFL to release more, it is compelling. Bounty on Favre was up to $35K and interim HC Vitt kicked $5K into that pool. Lots of bounty records were kept on Saints computers...

    It's been a tough stretch for the NFLPA. Even Doty doesn't seem interested in engaging in their bs whining anymore...
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  3. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's a good way to earn public respect Vilma, walk out of the hearing you requested. He's coming across as a self entitled whiny knob.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  4. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    I don't know about the rest of them, but the narrative that's been proposed in regards to Scott Fujita runs totally contrary to everything I've ever seen of him and his character inside and outside of the NFL. I am very skeptical that the NFL has a strong case against him.

    They may not be entitled to "due process" in regards to the CBA but that doesn't make it right; we have due process in our legal system for a reason. Without it you have ht potential for one guy like Goodell to hold a kangaroo court solely for the purposes of mitigating future lawsuits, and then only making certain evidence available.

    Of course the evidence presented is "compelling." If prosecutors were able to present only the information that they wanted to to make their case and bury all the rest it would be compelling every time. If our justice system worked that way there wouldn't be a single not guilty defendant.
  5. PATRIOTSFANINPA

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    Did you forget what team he started with?

    He is a NY Jet still in spirit
  6. Dingleberry

    Dingleberry Rookie

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    He had to go make dinner for Fred.















    (sorry, I will forever think "Flintstones" when I see his name)
  7. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That makes the Danny Woodhead exorcism all the more impressive.
  8. PatsFanSince74

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    Vilma walked out because he knew he was toast.

    Come on! He played for the Jets. It warped his judgment.
  9. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Absolutely!

    Vilma's walkout means he knows it's over

    Game, Set, Match. Goodell.

    Some lawyer sold Vilma that he had a case. NOT!
  10. Reckedtrek

    Reckedtrek Rookie

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    What a b00b.
  11. Gronkandez

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    Should the title say "out on" Bounty-Gate hearing??...instead of "on out"....:confused:
  12. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Here's what's strange. If the evidence was so compelling, why didn't the NFL release it last Friday when it released only the 200 pages it planned to use when the CBA requires three days prior release to the players of any evidence it plans to use? To release it to a selected few reporters smacks of trying the case in the court of public relations.....
  13. Simple Jack's Brother

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    Vilma is such a turddddddd

    [​IMG]
  14. MoLewisrocks

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    The NFL didn't show the evidence to the media until the hearings were over. Showed them the same damned evidence the NFLPA has been labeling specious (doesn't every defense lawyer claim that...) just on principle. They are never going to say oh, wait, now we see...you got us. The league has a right to spin public opinion in it's own defense when that is all the NFLPA and the players have been doing for months. Their arguments have failed at every turn, beyond creating sympathy or intermittent uncertainty within the media, including in front of 2 independent arbitrators they agreed to. Even Doty doesn't seem inclined to wade back into the fray because frankly it's all lame bs.

    This is about Goodell retaining the power to discipline these clowns without having to watch them bamboozle some arbitrator or judge who thinks he's in court or worse yet some gullible jury...And thank god he did. The players had their chance to change the process. Didn't happen because their leadership remains enamored with % points. They should be lambasting their NFLPA leadership, the clowns they just re-elected. Same ones who set them up with a rookie wage scale and a flat cap for the next 5 years...

    The players are getting exactly what they deserve because it's what they collectively bargained for.
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Absolutely...

    The players could have beaten the owners had they just taken it all seriously once the owners opted out of the previous deal. Instead, they ignored what was coming, voted in a clown to lead them, and got slaughtered.
  16. peterforpats

    peterforpats Rookie

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    this isn't a court of law- it is a business making decisions according to legal contracts signed by both parties. the union and the saints don't have a leg to stand on- all their posturing is for public relations.everyone seems to forget sean payton and gregg williams probably gave the commish enough evidence so they could be re-instated. as commish, roger has the right and obligation to clean up this mess.vilma has sued has he not? he should shut up and prepare his case, when heloses that he can move on to his next career. win or lose, he won't get his year out of football back.
  17. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was going to make this comment but you put it so eloquently that I'll simply agree with your position Deus.
  18. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    So why do you think we have due process enshrined in the constitution then?

    Basically you and everyone else who rants constantly about Goodell being power mad are now saying that Goodell's accusations are automatically believable only because those who he accuses have zero legal recourse. Pretty bizarre logic.

    1. Whether the players were stupid/naive/ignorant in not collectively bargaining for better disciplinary protections.

    2. Whether the players now are guilty/should be suspended/deserve to have their names smeared without being able to mount a defense.

    Two totally different questions.

    The reasons for due process don't change simply because the forum does. And there's a whole host of different reasons why analogizing regular businesses and contracts to the NFL is faulty (monopoly), not the least of which is the hypocrisy of "fans" who spent the entire lockout lambasting players and giving the owners a pass only to turn around now and criticize the players for not having dug in their heels hard enough.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's not make this a civics course. This is two private parties who've legitimately and contractually agreed to a method of discipline, so let's leave it at that. Some of us were posting about the discipline issues long ago, and we watched as the players ignored it because they were too busy getting suckered in by their leadership to actually think for themselves or read the documents they were agreeing to.
  20. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    You can run with that narrative if you want, but it's not the least bit accurate. The players were facing an avalanche of criticism from fans and their leverage was eroding quickly by the end of the lockout. The collective groan from fans once the issue of player discipline was broached was palpable. Headlines warning that "Goodell won't budge on Player discipline," and the prospect of a long protracted fight against his "appeals process" would have eroded the players position drastically.

    It simply wasn't in the cards because most "fans" of the NFL are inclined to take the side of those in power, which is the way support trended consistently the longer the holdout continued. The De Smith scapegoating started almost right away, and now it's the copout du jour when in actuality the guy did a damn good job considering the climate he had to work with.

    And it's not a "civics lesson." To reduce it to "two private parties who've legitimately and contractually agreed to a method of discipline" ignores the reality of it on almost every level. And it still makes no sense whatsoever to adjudicate this case in favor of Goodell as an ignorant third party (which is what we, the pubic are) simply because of the fact that he has the sole power to punish.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  21. Joker

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    jeezus....this snippet is just so ridiculous it defies reason...deeming players "clowns" then placing these "clowns" as the intellectual superiors to any arbitrator and then painting any jury with the broad "gullible" brush is distinctly fascist.I have read "judge who thinks he's in court" over and over and STILL have no idea what you mean... a man ascends to the position of judge but is so stupid he doesn't know whether he is in court or not??? Arrogance such as this I haven't read since William Shirer penned his supreme opus of non fiction, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and described Josef Goebbels.

    Let me use a few substitutions to illustrate..

    This is about Der Fuhrer retaining the power to discipline the army without having to watch them bamboozle some military liason or general who thinks he's in command or worse yet some gullible common citizens

    here's hoping JoGoebbelsDoesn'tRock...as a fan I want 100% transparency from Roger Goodell at this point...only a total fool trusts this man's motives vis a vis ANY issue with the events of the past five years.
  22. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My narrative is accurate, and the reason I suggested that we not make this a civics lesson is because your argument about "due process" is a lousy one, but I don't really want to smack you down because you've generally been a solid read. And before you retort, you should know that I've been harping on the problems with this disciplinary structure, and the need for the players to get it changed in the CBA for a long, long time.

    Here's just one example, from back in 2007:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/60394-bb-summoned-nfl-office-new-york-team-denies-rumor-page3.html#post513753
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  23. TyronePoole

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    Needing to do bargain for something and it being possible to do so are two totally different things, and I never said anything about your individual stance towards the NFLPA's bargaining priorities in the past (it's irrelevant to my argument).

    You seem to think that something that is not bargained for (due process) is therefore not a principle that the NFL ought to adhere to in disciplining a player. I strongly disagree.

    Many (though I'm not sure if you are one of them based on your posts) also seem to think that the absence of bargained for due process has relevancy in determining the guilt of the players as an outside party. I find that absurd.

    I appreciate the compliment, if that's what it was, about my being generally a solid read. But please, I'm far from fragile, if you think you can "smack me down" about my "lousy argument" then have at it.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  24. mayoclinic

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    I think both sides on this argument have something to offer, though I tend to side with Mo and Deus on this one.

    I doubt many people on this board think that Goodell is anything other than a clown, and a power hungry one at that. He's a pompous buffoon, he's heavy handed and clumsy in how he handles things, and some of his responses to situations have been "unjust".

    OTOH, the players are often a bunch of spoiled children, and they need some parental guidance. They collectively bargained away their rights, so due process is being followed - they are getting exactly the process that they bargained for, as Mo and Deus note. The alternative would be anarchy - every dispute getting litigated up the wazoo, and no control over the players. It wouldn't work. I hate Goodell was a passion, but I tend to side with the league office on this one, because the alternative is worse, and because the players collectively agreed to this process.

    Florio put it best: "If this is labor peace, I’d hate to see what labor unrest would look like."
  25. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It would be a waste of my time. Let me just ask you when the NFL was determined, by the courts, to be a state actor for the purposes of due process requirements.....

    Then, if you find that for all of us, perhaps you could tell us, specifically, which requirements of due process have not been met.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  26. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    You seem to have misread my posts if you think I said anything like this. I have never once argued that the NFL is legally obligated to provide due process.
  27. TyronePoole

    TyronePoole Banned

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    To respond to your edit - are you really asking me to enumerate every principle of procedural and substantive due process that the NFL does not currently embrace? Talk about a wate of time.
  28. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The players had an opportunity to meet with the Commissioner, but chose not to talk. Also, there have already been rulings that the commissioner does, in fact, have the right to make the rulings he's made. You seem to have missed them.

    RN-T.com - Arbitrator rules in favor of Goodell

    Now, let's have an end to this. You did bring up due process, despite its inapplicability. You haven't produced any evidence that such "due process" was violated even if required. You've either not known or ignored the reality that Goodell's ability to act is something that's already been ruled upon. You've ignored/glossed over the fact that the players had the opportunity to present a case and chose not to, and you seem to be minimizing the reality that the players also have the ability to appeal. You made the absolutely moronic comment that

    "Basically you and everyone else who rants constantly about Goodell being power mad are now saying that Goodell's accusations are automatically believable only because those who he accuses have zero legal recourse. Pretty bizarre logic."

    when that's not what's being said.


    In short, you got pretty much everything wrong.
  29. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's clearly not what I asked you, and you know that. This is why I didn't want to get into this. You made a crap argument. You have nothing to back that argument. As a result, you're going to try playing games.


    No thanks.
  30. TyronePoole

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    so you've gone through all of this just to straw man me?

    You took that post out of the context of what it was responding to. I asked about why the poster thinks due process is in the constitution to show that the reasons for due process in a judicial proceeding don't evaporate simply because the legal requirement to abide by due process does. I don't know how many different ways I can say this.

    Even in that post you quoted I spelled it out for you:

    1. The league is under no legal obligation to provide due process.

    2. The fact that they are not has no relevance to the factual guilt or innocence of a player.

    You've responded by repeating ad nauseum that the NFL is under no legal requirement to abide by due process. I can really only conclude at this point that you are either trolling or not in a very clear mental state.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
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