Greg Williams Speech before the 49ers game

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Warner didn't feel targeted but he WAS targeted. That's pretty clear in the report. Like I said, he's probably not the type for litigation so his response never surprised me.

And, no, of course I don't think every injured player could bring charges for being beaned. That's the nature of the game and the risk you take.

But what's different here--legally and morally--is the element of payment not for doing what you have to do to bring a runner down, but for specifically injuring another person.

That's outside the rules of the game that these players signed up for; it's not a risk they legally assumed, and so it's no different from hiring some guy on the street to beat up your target.

What makes you think batters that get "beaned' are never targeted?

Tackling and blocking is typically targeted. I am not aware of "blind" tackling on the field.

Did anyone actually specifically target Crabtree's ACL and if not....was there anything punative to the subordinate parties involved?

The Giants also talked about a target on Kyle Williams and his concussions. Should they be held legally accountable?

 

[Ivan]

For years, football players have used every military connotation known to man. However, an NFL playoff game is hardly Omaha Beach, Iwo Jima, or Gettysburg.

It would be better to worry less about talking about ACL's and more about what actually happened.

After years of Hines Ward, how did he "play the right way"?

Yesterday, on NFLN, the ex-head coach of the RAVENS, Brian Billick was "sick" over the audio?.....really?

Before, the NFCCG, the Giants openly talked about targetting Kyle Williams. Do Giants players actually track concussions?

What "matters" is that a coach encouraged players to deliberately injure other players and offered money if they succeeded. Whether or not they succeeded is irrelevant, what matters is the message and the intent. There is no place in any sport for this, and any coach that encourages it should be banned from the sport on all levels for life. If player's get caught offering payment for injuries then they should receive the same sentence.

As for tracking injuries it goes on on every team and there is no doubt that other teams try to punish players where they are hurt, and as long as the hits are legal there is no problem. Concussions are another matter, because head shots are supposed to be outlawed and deliberately hitting players in the head should draw the foul and the fine. This is why Belichick has always hated the injury report and screwed with it for years and probably still does to whatever extent he can get away with, he doesn't want the opposition going after his player's injuries, but the league insists on advertising it, pretty much for gambling purposes as it doesn't serve any other purpose. Truth is there should be no such thing as an injury report.

 

[chumpchange]

What makes you think batters that get "beaned' are never targeted?

Tackling and blocking is typically targeted. I am not aware of "blind" tackling on the field.

Did anyone actually specifically target Crabtree's ACL and if not....was there anything punative to the subordinate parties involved?

The Giants also talked about a target on Kyle Williams and his concussions. Should they be held legally accountable?

-I'm sure they are, but the pitchers are not then payed extra by the organization for beaning the batter, correct?
-As I've said, if a player targeted for paid injury was actually injured, then the Saints are liable. And, really, I mean less the defensive players, more Gregg Williams and through him, the Saints organization.
-If the Giants coach offered payment to injure him, yes.

 

[BSR]

This may have already been said, but after having listened to that, I think that anyone that has ever whined about BB's injury reports owe the man an apology.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

What "matters" is that a coach encouraged players to deliberately injure other players and offered money if they succeeded. Whether or not they succeeded is irrelevant, what matters is the message and the intent. There is no place in any sport for this, and any coach that encourages it should be banned from the sport on all levels for life. If player's get caught offering payment for injuries then they should receive the same sentence.

As for tracking injuries it goes on on every team and there is no doubt that other teams try to punish players where they are hurt, and as long as the hits are legal there is no problem. Concussions are another matter, because head shots are supposed to be outlawed and deliberately hitting players in the head should draw the foul and the fine. This is why Belichick has always hated the injury report and screwed with it for years and probably still does to whatever extent he can get away with, he doesn't want the opposition going after his player's injuries, but the league insists on advertising it, pretty much for gambling purposes as it doesn't serve any other purpose. Truth is there should be no such thing as an injury report.

The two bold statements

That about sums it up.

Over at NFL.com, there is an article with Carl Banks opining on the subject.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

-I'm sure they are, but the pitchers are not then payed extra by the organization for beaning the batter, correct?
-As I've said, if a player targeted for paid injury was actually injured, then the Saints are liable. And, really, I mean less the defensive players, more Gregg Williams and through him, the Saints organization.
-If the Giants coach offered payment to injure him, yes.

Ahhhh, no

I would never base the difference between first and second degree murder on the monetary size of the contract.

"Mr DA, my defendent didn't deserve first degree murder for that pre meditated murder, the contract was only $10K."

What play was Crabtree's ACL actually targeted? What were the punative measures leveled against various players for failure to blow out his ACL?

However, it does appear you and Warren Sapp completely agree on the matter.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Reason for BB not so forth coming with actual location of injuries to players. There are people out there who wants to feed of it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Warner didn't feel targeted but he WAS targeted. That's pretty clear in the report. Like I said, he's probably not the type for litigation so his response never surprised me

Why wouldn't Warner be targeted? He's the damn QB!

 

[BradyManny]

What play was Crabtree's ACL actually targeted? What were the punitive measures leveled against various players for failure to blow out his ACL?

One would have to go back to the tape to know that. But it doesn't matter.

What matters is Greg Williams - an NFL coach - told them to do it.

If the players were man enough not to resort to cheap bullsh*t and go after ACLs, then good for them.

But that's not the discussion here. Stop changing the subject of threads to fit your arguments.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Why wouldn't Warner be targeted? He's the damn QB!

....and he is still moaning about SB XXXVI.......

 

[chumpchange]

Ahhhh, no

I would never base the difference between first and second degree murder on the monetary size of the contract.

"Mr DA, my defendent didn't deserve first degree murder for that pre meditated murder, the contract was only $10K."

What play was Crabtree's ACL actually targeted? What were the punative measures leveled against various players for failure to blow out his ACL?

However, it does appear you and Warren Sapp completely agree on the matter.

I think you misunderstood my analogy. The point is not how much money the players were offered, but that they were offered money at all, by a representative of the organization (the coach).

I can see you aren't a lawyer, but you've seen sting operations on those reality cop shows, right? Where the cop is miked up and posing as a hitman, meets the guy wanting the hit done, makes an agreement on tape and exchanges the money? And then all the other squad cars descend on the restaurant and arrest the guy for conspiracy to commit murder? The murder or the beating or whatever does not actually have to occur to give rise to the arrest.

Same thing here--Coach engages players to specifically inflict career-ending injuries on the other team's players--which is outside the rules of the games and therefore not a risk the players assumed--and he will pay them money (and HAS payed out money) if they accomplish this.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That's totally fair - and I agree most athletes feel that way at some point. I've never played football, but on a much lesser violent basketball court, I would've done some nasty things to opponents to ensure victory. So I can only imagine what goes through the head of a linebacker when he goes after a quarterback.

But there are rules in place to penalize players from acting on these instincts, and to curb them from doing it going forward.

When a coach consciously, cooly and premeditatively circumvents these rules, and the fundamental notion of respecting one's opponents - that's pretty wrong.

When Williams talks about going after ACLs and heads - I mean, that's out there. He honestly could be facing criminal charges for that stuff. If in any other business you planned ending the career or season of a competitor, well, you'd be f**ked.


The problem is that - the perception in football is that anything that a man can do physically should be allowed within the rules.

The obvious issue with that is that a man can kill another man with his own body - especially now when you have 6'4, 270 men who run 4.6 40s.

So we have rules. The perception and rules are at a disconnect. The culture needs to shift so that the two align.

Both sides of the argument are making that difficult. When you got Ray Lewis and James Harrison saying one thing that's too extreme and you got reactionary media on the other side that's saying something too extreme - you don't get anywhere.

Middle ground should be sought.

If Williams ends up in legal trouble I'd imagine that it'd be a civil suit rather than criminal charges, which carry a much higher burden of proof.

As far as talking about ACLs and concussions, that's one of the things that makes his speech so bizarre: those are very much at risk through normal play, even if you desire injury what do you get by mentioning it? If a player wraps up withy his arms and lets his weight sink, which is the proper way to make a tackle, any resistance by the player being tackled is increasing their chances of injury, whether it's the knees or ankles that are weak.

I agree that there should be a middle ground and I think you find that with vigorous enforcement of clearly defined and consistent rules. So if James Harrison or Stomper decide to go head-hunting they should be ejected from the game in addition to a 15yd penalty.

 

[JoeSixPat]

This may have already been said, but after having listened to that, I think that anyone that has ever whined about BB's injury reports owe the man an apology.

Fantastic point.

Belichick hasn't been overly coy about his concerns about identifying injuries

One has to assume there was some inkling of it going on.

What this further illustrates is my long standing point that Goodell is putting the interests of Las Vegas ahead of his players by requiring disclosures of injuries. From a game and safety standpoint it only threatens the players health.

It wouldn't surprise me if the entire injury disclosure policy is brought to some scrutiny.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

One would have to go back to the tape to know that. But it doesn't matter.

What matters is Greg Williams - an NFL coach - told them to do it.

If the players were man enough not to resort to cheap bullsh*t and go after ACLs, then good for them.

But that's not the discussion here. Stop changing the subject of threads to fit your arguments.

I can see the "simplifying the offense" thread isn't an isloated incident.

Yeah, some clown making an over the top speech is a lil different that being "told to do it".

Being "told to do it" would cross the line into official policy. The game tape indicates:

No action was specifically taken to take out the ACL. It's not that hard to blow out someone's knee if it was really one's intent.

No punative action appears to have been taken on subordinate members for failure to carry out that policy. Who got benched/fined for failure to execute the "gameplan"?

Ya know, that ole actions speaking louder than words thingy......

The hyperbole of the words vs the actual course of events should make one pause over the questionable and limited nature of this release.

I guess a sustained history of struggle with actual events (and the requisite critical thinking), would not make this seem so obvious.

 

[chumpchange]

I can see the "simplifying the offense" thread isn't an isloated incident.

Yeah, some clown making an over the top speech is a lil different that being "told to do it".

Being "told to do it" would cross the line into official policy. The game tape indicates:

No action was specifically taken to take out the ACL. It's not that hard to blow out someone's knee if it was really one's intent.

No punative action appears to have been taken on subordinate members for failure to carry out that policy. Who got benched/fined for failure to execute the "gameplan"?

Ya know, that ole actions speaking louder than words thingy......

The hyperbole of the words vs the actual course of events should make one pause over the questionable and limited nature of this release.

I guess a sustained history of struggle with actual events (and the requisite critical thinking), would not make this seem so obvious.

The 'action' giving rise to the crime was the payment or the offer to pay.

 

[patfanken]

I've tried to stay away from this conversation since its been rather distasteful. As some might know I've played the game at the HS, college, and professional levels (however briefly ) I played back in the day where " men were men" and I never met a RB trying to swing out into the flat that I didn't try and put my forearm into his throat (which was legal btw) I also coached on the HS level for close to 15 years as well as a few years for some semi pro teams,

That being said, I can honestly say I have NEVER heard a coach EVER come out and talk about hurting an opponent anything CLOSE to what Greg Williams said. It simply made me sick. Now I have been part of "prize pools" before. But it was for getting the first TO/pick/fumble etc. I never heard it done to knock out a player.

The players I know wouldn't have put up with that kind of crap coming from a coach. Especially a guy who had never done it himself. To have it happen speaks to a systemic problem with the Saints. To defend it by saying "everyone does it" is both wrong and sloppy thinking.

Again there is a HUGE difference between having a players' pool for achieving a football goal, like a score or turnover, and putting a bounty on another player. Its OK to try and put a beating on someone. Its OK to try and establish a physical dominance on another team. It is NOT OK to attempt to injure someone by attacking his ACL, or head.

Williams should never be allowed to coach again in the NFL. I can't image how a HS or College would let him lead impressionable young men. He is done as a coach...or at least should be.

The Penalties that Goodell hit the Saints with are severe, but given their systemic nature, and organizational arrogance that allowed them to ignore the warnings to stop and then lie to the league, I think they got off easy. Vilma should get a year off as the player scapegoat to discourage other players to even allow this crap in their locker room. But beyond that I'm hoping that no other Saints players are suspended or fined.

BTW - Sapp should also get a year off for trying to scapegoat the Panther TE for being the whistleblower. The fact he was wrong is irrelevant. It is a GOOD thing this came to light and blaming the "whistleblower" is like attacking the rape victim.

 

[Off The Grid]

I am absolutely flabbergasted that anyone is defending Williams.

That is disgraceful.

He specifically ordered his players to inflict head injuries.

He is sewage.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I am absolutely flabbergasted that anyone is defending Williams.

That is disgraceful.

He specifically ordered his players to inflict head injuries.

He is sewage.

Did he instruct/incentivize dirty play? Sure, he talks about giving opposing players concussions yet no one bats an eyebrow when Ray Lewis tells his guys that "anyone who touches the ball gets knocked out today".

The 'how' is critically important.

 

[chumpchange]

I am absolutely flabbergasted that anyone is defending Williams.

That is disgraceful.

He specifically ordered his players to inflict head injuries.

He is sewage.

You can tell Williams was compensating--a wimp trying to act like a tough thug because he's embarrassed he never actually played football.

Pathetic.

 

[chumpchange]

Did he instruct/incentivize dirty play? Sure, he talks about giving opposing players concussions yet no one bats an eyebrow when Ray Lewis tells his guys that "anyone who touches the ball gets knocked out today".

The 'how' is critically important.

-Ray Lewis is player, not a coach.

-As noted, pretty well all players are full of swagger and talk about knocking heads, but the Saints situation is completely different because there was an organized bounty system in which players were illicitly paid for certain injuries, tipping the situation into a clear organized criminal conspiracy.

And anyone even mildly familiar with criminal law knows this is something an average man would be imprisoned for.