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This I agree with, but your previous comments have indicated that you feel there is something wrong with the owners basing their offer on making everyone profitable, and that the less profitable teams shouldn't 'drag down' what the players make. Your comments have indicated you feel that the lesser profitable teams should suffer in order for the players to get more $. The owners will never take that approach, nor should they. If a 100mill cap makes the least profitable of their owners happy with his profit, a 110 mill cap puts 5 teams in the red, and a 200mill cap makes Bob Kraft a tidy profit, the owners will not accept a cap above 100mill.
They are not negotating for what an outsider would consider fair, and agreeing to a deal that says, to paraphrase comments you have made before, the Bills need to suck it up or sell, they are negotiating for a deal acceptable to all of their owners.




Your comments indicate that you believe the players should have to agree to a deal that guarantees financial success for those owners who steadfastly refuse to invest in their franchises and don't succeed as a result. Rather than agree to a fair deal the players need to agree to a deal that guarantees profits for every franchise regardless of their efforts on their own behalf. So Ralph Wilson and Mike brown must be guaranteed profitability rather than allowing the market to let them fail and have new ownership buy them, invest in them, and move them when needed.

For years the Browns have refused to invest in a scouting department and coaches, and for years Ralph Wilson has gone cheap on coaches and both franchises have sucked because of it, but under your plan the players should take the hit so they can make money rather than let them fail and have them bought out. How this makes the NFL a better league is beyond me as all it does is prop up sucky ownership by guaranteeing they will make a ton of money whether they try to succeed or not.


Guaranteeing profits for bad ownership is a terrible idea and if that's the root of this issue then the players should refuse to agree to any deal that has that as the underlying basis.
 
I took your post to indicate you felt the owners should settle on something that doesnt satisfy the lower revenue teams in order to make the players happier with the deal. My point was the owners will not sacrifice their own under any circumstances.

Not sacrifice their own? I think George Wilson and Mike Brown would have had something to say to that after the final vote approving the 2006 CBA. They saw that the supplemental revenue sharing plan wasn't going to amount to much more than a gesture.

The owners don't care about one another, and many of them outright dislike each other. They are able to present a united front in these negotiations because of a detante in which the lower-revenue owners don't try to augment the revenue sharing agreement in return for the high-revenue owners driving a hard line to make up the money from the players.

I dont think its a matter of getting upset, but its that these owners either are not able to (every market isnt Boston and every team hasnt had the success of the Patriots, which is at least 50% of the reason Kraft genreates so much additional reveune) or simply havent done as well in generating local revenues and the league is not going to tell them too bad for you. The league is going to make sure the lesser franchsises do well, and the wealthy ones doing real well is a side effect.

...

I don't think it matters much to the other owners. Kraft doesnt really care about Fords local revenues. Also, there are many factors in how much local revenue they can earn, and you seem to be limiting it to lack of effort or ability, which is a very simplistic approach.

Actually, Kraft had already taken the Patriots from an NFL bottom-dweller to a top-10 money earner by the time the Pats won their first Super Bowl. Meanwhile, the Cowboys and Redskins are two of the perennial top-earning teams in the league despite Washington having only 3 winning seasons in the last 18 years, and the Cowboys having only managed a single wild-card-round playoff victory since the Aikman/Irving/Smith era. Oh, and the Texans have been the 4th highest earning team of late, despite having a single winning season in franchise history. So it really doesn't look like team success is a necessary component for revenue-generating.

Metro-market value isn't that good a predictor of earnings, either. Chicago does alright, but should be leading the pack by a good site. Even splitting NY, the Jets and Giants should be filling out the top 3, but instead have been mediocre-to-poor in terms of revenue (though that should change once the 2010 season numbers are in.) Atlanta, Phoenix, and the Bay Area teams shouldn't be bottom dwellers, judging Nielsen DMA rankings.

So while it might be simplistic to attribute low earnings to lack of effort, it makes less sense to attribute it to factors that clearly don't track. One thing we do know is that teams with new stadiums take huge leaps in revenues. I have a strong suspicion that, if one had access to the information, the figure that would track best with franchise revenues would be money invested into the team.

I disagree there. Setting the cap at a level that allows all teams to operate profitably (and at an acceptable profit level) is the solution. I don't understand the thinking that the players should have to particpate in the local revenue generated by wealthy teams that has never been part of the cap, or that the owners should agree to a cap that forces the lesser teams to lose money and be subsidized.

Ah, but the local revenues did used to be part of the cap! All licensing deals involving any and every team in the NFL used to be shared revenue. This included any sort of team sponsorship or endorsement, and anything being sold with a team logo on it. Licensing, more than anything else, has been responsible for the NFL's incredible revenue growth in the 90's and 00's. In the mid 90's, during the Cowboys' heyday, Jerry Jones chafed at the fact that his teams' merchandise sold so much more than everybody else's, yet he didn't earn any more off it, since all licensing was managed by the NFL and the revenues shared.

So Jones started entering into separate sponsorship deals outside of the centrally licensed ones, and though the league objected, eventually Jones was able to force a settlement in which teams were allowed to pursue local licensing revenues that were not subject to revenue sharing. As the growth of licensing revenues continued to outpace all other sources, these new local streams became an increasingly larger portion of team revenues, which of course did not escape the NFLPA's notice.

So when these local revenues were added into the cap computation in 2006, they players were really just winning back full participation in NFL licensing revenues that they were cut out of as a side effect of a feud between Jerry Jones and the rest of the league.
 
That is a very rudimentery approach to a very complex problem.
First, the split is actually 60/40 after excluding some revenue, which results in 50/50. That does not mean that will continue under different situations. It does not account for what percentage expense makes up of the 40% the owners keep. If exepnses are rising faster than revenues (or acutally faster than 40% of revenues) the real split changes as well. It is entirely possible that a 50/50 split translated reasonably to the bottom line in the past, but no longer does look into the future.
All businesses having changing expense structures. Why does the price of lettuce have to go up? Because the price of gas, a large part of the cost in delivering lettuce to the buyer goes up.
Saying 50/50 used to be good why shouldn't it always be is naive.

I think you misunderstood my rhetorical use of the question. I don't mean that since the 50-50 split worked since 1993, we should assume it still works now. In fact, clearly, it's not working. I asked the question "why isn't it working anymore" because I think that needs to be understood so that the league can address the real issues at root.

Now, first of all, it's inaccurate to say that the 40% is being used to cover expenses, when the ~11% deduction off the top -- amounting to $1 billion most recently -- is deducted entirely for league and team expenses. Thus, as I said in my post, this results in a split that has hovered pretty much right around 50-50, and with the owners covering league expenses from their half -- at least, the expenses that they don't pass down back to the players. (Remember how Corey Dillon used to rave that, unlike the Bengals, the Patriots didn't charge him for using using two pairs of socks during two-a-days?)

The exception I take with your argument is that a) there's no evidence that expenses are rising faster than revenues, and b) even if that were the case, the effects would be trivial compared to the rate of growth in revenue disparity between franchises. From 2005-2009, the NFL's gross unadjusted-for-the-CBA revenues increased 43%. That's 43% revenue growth during the worst economy in decades. There's absolutely no way that expenses came even close to keeping up with that.

That is certainly debatable.

Then debate it. Explain to me how the NFL's gross revenues can increase 43% over four years, every new stadium expenditure has paid off in spades, and player compensation has stayed level at 50%, and the NFL isn't more profitable.


That is as well. Again when your side gets a percentage in its pocket and mine gets a percentage that it must cover all of the expense from, the equation of the REAL split changes constantly.

I believe you might have mistaken my meaning. I mean the revenues have never been split more unequally between the league's 32 franchises (which isn't remotely debatable) not that the distribution of revenues between owners and players has become unequal, as it has remained steady at 50-50.


But the revenue that is relevant to the players and the CBA is the revenue they receive a percentage of.
This is where we are far apart. If some teams show a tremendous increase in the non includable revenue that has no impact on the split. If at the same time expenses increase, and the profitability is dropping exclusive of the non-included revenue, the split must be altered.
In other words if you have 2 teams, and they each made $1,000,000 in profit, and one found a NONINCLUDED revenue source to generate an additional $1,000,000 while expenses drove the $1,000,000 profit from includable down to $500,000 then the split must change, not stay the same because adding the increase in non-includable gets them to the same profit level.
Not sure if that is completely clear, but another way to put it is that the owners will only accept a system where everyone is profitable, so the pertinent financials are the team in the worst shape not the one in the best shape, or the average. Anything else would be a suicidal business move for a league of owners.

I understand the scenario you describe, but your hypothetical doesn't reflect the reality of what's been happening with the NFL.

To make it easier I will call includable revenue 'football revenue' and local revenue excluded from the cap calculation 'other income'
The owners need a system where every team is profitable on football revenue,and the other revenue in excess of that is profit that the NFLPA* really has no claim to.


But that would simply be for the sake of transferring more money from owners to players. Why would the owners have any interest in that?


I think 'other revenue' hasn't been part of the equation all along, so shouldnt be considered here either.
It is wrong IMO, the use 'other revenue' and its sharing among owners as a way to raise the cap, and make that revenue a subsidy to a franchsie that cant make a profit under the cap.
The revenue sharing is not designed to mitigate payroll expense, or resce a team from losing money. It is shared because they are a group of owners, and they believe each of the 32 benefits from the existence of the other 31.
Wrapping that revenue sharing up into the cap and the CBA is just a ploy by the NFLPA* to take the revenue they do not particpate in and find a back door into getting a share.

The NFL already has designations for 'football revenue' and 'non-football revenues.' Non-football revenue describes proceeds from non-NFL events at NFL stadiums, and revenues from certain side-attractions around stadiums on gamedays, among other things. Non-football revenue is retained in total by the franchise's owner -- neither the other owners nor players participate. "Football revenue" would be unadjusted Total Revenue, which is the expense-deducted "aggregate revenues... from all sources, whether known or unknown, derived from, relating to or arising out of the performance of players in NFL football games," minus a few very specific exemptions, such as luxury box money above regular ticket cost.

This includes, obviously, the shared revenue streams, in addition to any local revenue streams derived from the game -- particularly, the local licensing revenues that the players got cut out of when Jerry Jones went rogue in 1996. So, going forward, the distinction between "shared" and "retained" revenues applies only to how the revenues are divided amongst the owners -- it does not affect how the revenues are split between owners and players.

So the problem now is that in the original NFL revenue sharing plan, all franchises benefited equally from the licensing of any NFL franchise name and logo, but this no longer became the case in 1996. The 2006 CBA restored the players' share of this money, but didn't redistribute it among the owners, so now for every $32 million dollars Jerry Jones off Cowboys' licensing, the salary cap goes up $1 million dollars for every team. Since the Cowboys, Redskins, Patriots and Texans revenues are rising so much faster than the Lions, Bengals and Bills, they cant' keep up. This, and not any phantom expense increases is what accounts for the poorer franchises' shortfalls.

So, really, all you'd have to do is reset things back to the pre-1996 revenue sharing system, and the revenue disparity gap will shrink back down to size, and all of the teams would be able to afford the 50-50 split again. But the successful owners would argue -- and I'd agree with them -- that this takes away their incentive to pursue these local licensing deals that have been so prosperous. That's why the only workable solution is one in which the low-revenue teams are temporarily subsidized by being lent the money needed to invest in developing the local revenue streams that will help keep the revenue gap narrow, and the same 50-50 split salary cap that's worked since 1993 affordable by all teams.
 
The owners need a system where every team is profitable on football revenue,and the other revenue in excess of that is profit that the NFLPA* really has no claim to.


.



No kidding? Poor ownership and poor management should be guaranteed profits regardless of their efforts to bring winners to their communities? I can't think of a worse idea when it comes to making a league better than guaranteeing people millions of dollars regardless of their efforts. Why would any bad owner sell to someone who really wants to win when they have a lockdown guarantee of millions and millions. So rather than allowing these franchises that suck to fail they should be propped up so their owners have zero motivation to sell the team and the community is stuck with a bad franchise that is guaranteed millions and millions.


What a great idea, i'm sure the NFL will get much better with that as the business model.
 
No kidding? Poor ownership and poor management should be guaranteed profits regardless of their efforts to bring winners to their communities? I can't think of a worse idea when it comes to making a league better than guaranteeing people millions of dollars regardless of their efforts. Why would any bad owner sell to someone who really wants to win when they have a lockdown guarantee of millions and millions. So rather than allowing these franchises that suck to fail they should be propped up so their owners have zero motivation to sell the team and the community is stuck with a bad franchise that is guaranteed millions and millions.


What a great idea, i'm sure the NFL will get much better with that as the business model.

I'm not commenting either way here... but it's funny how the payment model you just discussed is the exact contracts people like haynesworth, the raiders 1st pick, gholston and other bust draft picks get with guaranteed money... paid a large amount of money regardless of performance. Isn't that what the owners are trying to stop with a rookie pay scale?

Now back to the discussion about the NFLPA and Owners making a deal. I wonder if this deal will be done without the players seeing the owners books... seeing as that was the major sticking point to begin with hahah hopefulyl when this deal is done someone can put up a list of things that were said pre and post deal and see how idiotic and how many lies were sprouted from both parties.
 
I'm not commenting either way here... but it's funny how the payment model you just discussed is the exact contracts people like haynesworth, the raiders 1st pick, gholston and other bust draft picks get with guaranteed money... paid a large amount of money regardless of performance. Isn't that what the owners are trying to stop with a rookie pay scale?

Now back to the discussion about the NFLPA and Owners making a deal. I wonder if this deal will be done without the players seeing the owners books... seeing as that was the major sticking point to begin with hahah hopefulyl when this deal is done someone can put up a list of things that were said pre and post deal and see how idiotic and how many lies were sprouted from both parties.

The NFLPA won't see the owners' books. Personally, I think it was a red herring all along. I think the players knew there was no chance of the owners of opening their books and it was a PR move to decertify without looking bad or at least minimizing the demage of decertifying.

Both sides have played games to win the PR battle. I think that was one of the games the players played.
 
Your comments indicate that you believe the players should have to agree to a deal that guarantees financial success for those owners who steadfastly refuse to invest in their franchises and don't succeed as a result.
I didnt come close to suggesting that the players should have to agree to anything.
I'm not sure where you get that owners are refusing to invest in their franchises. Please clarify which owners are not investing in their franchise.

Rather than agree to a fair deal the players need to agree to a deal that guarantees profits for every franchise regardless of their efforts on their own behalf. So Ralph Wilson and Mike brown must be guaranteed profitability rather than allowing the market to let them fail and have new ownership buy them, invest in them, and move them when needed.
Why do you insist on thinking that the owners wanting to make a profit is inconsistent with 'fair'?
Where am I saying they are guaranteed a profit? I am saying the deal that works for the owners would have to include each franchise projecting profitablity.
Just because the Bengals don't spend a lot of money on free agents or scouting does not mean they are not investing in their franchise or dragging down profits. Quite the contrary, their frugality helps the bottom line. Ralph Wilson is stuck in a market that may be the smallest of all professional sports (off the top of my head) what do you want him to do? Are you asking him to make an investment in buying houses and giving them to fans willing to move to Buffalo?

For years the Browns have refused to invest in a scouting department and coaches,
That has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand, profitability.

and for years Ralph Wilson has gone cheap on coaches and both franchises have sucked because of it,
Really? The Bills have been more successful than the Jets. For the last 30 years they have been more successful than Miami. Thats just the division, we can find many more teams throughout the league.
What do you want Wilson to do? Have the highest paid coach in the smallest market?

but under your plan the players should take the hit so they can make money rather than let them fail and have them bought out.
ITs not 'my plan' its a statement of reality. If you seriously think the owners are going to agree to a deal that would cause some of their group to have to sell or file bankruptcy, you are living in a fantasy world.

How this makes the NFL a better league is beyond me as all it does is prop up sucky ownership by guaranteeing they will make a ton of money whether they try to succeed or not.
This is where you get whacky. Do you seriously believe the league gets stronger by shifting money away from ownership into the hands of the players? You are crying about owners investing in their franchise, and you would prefer the money they could invest in a players bank account. I get that you are anti-business, but dollars kept by ownership can be reinvested to grow the league, or spent on attempts to make fans happeir with the product. Of course not all will, but if you hand it to the players, it is simply gone.
Look at it this way. If nothing else changed and there was either a 150mill cap or a 50mill cap, the 100 mill difference in the players hands can do nothing to improve the league, in the owners hands, it can be reinvested to improve the product and/or grow the league. Even if 1mill of the 100mil was, the league is better than if the cap was 150mil.



Guaranteeing profits for bad ownership is a terrible idea and if that's the root of this issue then the players should refuse to agree to any deal that has that as the underlying basis.
Who said anything about guaranteeing profits? I said the split should be set so that each team projects to make a profit. I know you see red when anyone suggests a nickel should go to ownership, but please read before responding.
 
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That's some interesting reading lamafist. Thanks for that.
 
Not sacrifice their own? I think George Wilson and Mike Brown would have had something to say to that after the final vote approving the 2006 CBA. They saw that the supplemental revenue sharing plan wasn't going to amount to much more than a gesture.
Of course the lowest grossing owners are going to like any deal less. It would probably be impossible to get a deal done that would fully satisy them. Nonetheless, the league will not put them in a position where they are set up to fail.

owners don't care about one another, and many of them outright dislike each other.
Business do not have to like each other to work to each others mutual benefit. In fact, they rarely do, at the top of the food chain.

[quote[They are able to present a united front in these negotiations because of a detante in which the lower-revenue owners don't try to augment the revenue sharing agreement in return for the high-revenue owners driving a hard line to make up the money from the players. [/quote]
They are on the same side.



Actually, Kraft had already taken the Patriots from an NFL bottom-dweller to a top-10 money earner by the time the Pats won their first Super Bowl. Meanwhile, the Cowboys and Redskins are two of the perennial top-earning teams in the league despite Washington having only 3 winning seasons in the last 18 years, and the Cowboys having only managed a single wild-card-round playoff victory since the Aikman/Irving/Smith era.
If the Patriots did not win, the Patriots would still be in the same financial situation.
The Cowboys and Redskins are living off the past. They, along with the Steelers were the most popular teams when people who are now at the age of being the biggest spenders becamse fans.
The Cowboys were America's team. The Redskins have one of the 5 largest fan bases in the league and have for 50 years.


Oh, and the Texans have been the 4th highest earning team of late, despite having a single winning season in franchise history. So it really doesn't look like team success is a necessary component for revenue-generating.
Not hard to figure that out. The market lost its team, was without football for many years, and is an enormous market.

Metro-market value isn't that good a predictor of earnings, either. Chicago does alright, but should be leading the pack by a good site. Even splitting NY, the Jets and Giants should be filling out the top 3, but instead have been mediocre-to-poor in terms of revenue (though that should change once the 2010 season numbers are in.) Atlanta, Phoenix, and the Bay Area teams shouldn't be bottom dwellers, judging Nielsen DMA rankings.

So while it might be simplistic to attribute low earnings to lack of effort, it makes less sense to attribute it to factors that clearly don't track. One thing we do know is that teams with new stadiums take huge leaps in revenues. I have a strong suspicion that, if one had access to the information, the figure that would track best with franchise revenues would be money invested into the team.
Listing each factor and finding a few examples that do not fit is not proof that your factor is correct.
Actually the factor that would corrolate perfectly is popularity, which is a factor of the size of fan base, and its current excitment for the team.
Bob Kraft didn't create Patriot fans. The success of the team brought them out of the woodwork, and probably did create many fans out of ambivalent people, but Kraft did not create fans by spending money (aside from the obvious cost of the coach)



Ah, but the local revenues did used to be part of the cap! All licensing deals involving any and every team in the NFL used to be shared revenue. This included any sort of team sponsorship or endorsement, and anything being sold with a team logo on it. Licensing, more than anything else, has been responsible for the NFL's incredible revenue growth in the 90's and 00's. In the mid 90's, during the Cowboys' heyday, Jerry Jones chafed at the fact that his teams' merchandise sold so much more than everybody else's, yet he didn't earn any more off it, since all licensing was managed by the NFL and the revenues shared.

So Jones started entering into separate sponsorship deals outside of the centrally licensed ones, and though the league objected, eventually Jones was able to force a settlement in which teams were allowed to pursue local licensing revenues that were not subject to revenue sharing. As the growth of licensing revenues continued to outpace all other sources, these new local streams became an increasingly larger portion of team revenues, which of course did not escape the NFLPA's notice.

So when these local revenues were added into the cap computation in 2006, they players were really just winning back full participation in NFL licensing revenues that they were cut out of as a side effect of a feud between Jerry Jones and the rest of the league.
I do not believe that is correct, but certainly have no inclination to research it, so we'll have to table that part of the discussion.
 
I think you misunderstood my rhetorical use of the question. I don't mean that since the 50-50 split worked since 1993, we should assume it still works now. In fact, clearly, it's not working. I asked the question "why isn't it working anymore" because I think that needs to be understood so that the league can address the real issues at root.
This is where we do not see eye to eye.
The owners will decide what is acceptable to them, and negotiate from that perspective. IMO, they have no obligation, and frankly it would be fool hardy of them, to explain the reasoning behind their business decisions.

Now, first of all, it's inaccurate to say that the 40% is being used to cover expenses, when the ~11% deduction off the top -- amounting to $1 billion most recently -- is deducted entirely for league and team expenses.
That is not true. The deduction off the top is a function of revenue, not expense.
Are you seriously saying that the owners profit is 40% of the revenue after the deduction off the top?


Thus, as I said in my post, this results in a split that has hovered pretty much right around 50-50, and with the owners covering league expenses from their half -- at least, the expenses that they don't pass down back to the players. (Remember how Corey Dillon used to rave that, unlike the Bengals, the Patriots didn't charge him for using using two pairs of socks during two-a-days?)
Socks? We are really going to talk about socks?
I agree that it works out to about 50/50 (which is why I stated that it was 40% after the deduction) but there is no certainty that 60/40 after will remain 50/50 before. There is also no certainty that the expenses that come out of that 40 or 50 will rise at the same rate.

The exception I take with your argument is that a) there's no evidence that expenses are rising faster than revenues, and b) even if that were the case, the effects would be trivial compared to the rate of growth in revenue disparity between franchises. From 2005-2009, the NFL's gross unadjusted-for-the-CBA revenues increased 43%. That's 43% revenue growth during the worst economy in decades. There's absolutely no way that expenses came even close to keeping up with that.
No way because you say no way? How much did the cap rise during that time?
You just said there is no evidence that expenses are rising faster than revenue and proved it by saying revenue rose 43% and the evidence that expenses are not rising as fast is you don't think it is??????



Then debate it. Explain to me how the NFL's gross revenues can increase 43% over four years, every new stadium expenditure has paid off in spades, and player compensation has stayed level at 50%, and the NFL isn't more profitable.

Again, you want it to be true because you think it is.
You have not shown that expenses have grown equally, less or more than revenue. Stating that every new stadium expenditure has paid off in spades, is simply something you made up. If not please show how Bob Kraft has made back all of his investment in building Gillette stadium in just 9 years. Certainly you aren't telling me the difference in ticket revenues has created so much extra profit that he has paid off his debt, are you? How about Jerry Jones? There is no evidence at all yet of whether he will ever make back what he spend on that monstrosity. You want to think he will without even knowing what he spent and how much it increaed cash flow.




I believe you might have mistaken my meaning. I mean the revenues have never been split more unequally between the league's 32 franchises (which isn't remotely debatable) not that the distribution of revenues between owners and players has become unequal, as it has remained steady at 50-50.
OK, but I don't know why the comment is relevant then.



I understand the scenario you describe, but your hypothetical doesn't reflect the reality of what's been happening with the NFL.
Sure it is. There are revenues that the players do not receive a share of. Those revenues are not all of a sudden part pf the equation, unless you go back to including them at 50/50 instead of excluding them at 60/40.
The players and owners TOGETHER agreed to change the split from 50/50 of all to 60/40 of included. There is no secret hold back, its just a different method getting to the same result. It would seem logical that both sides would think that is a good deal. The owners get protection if business slides at the expense of giving away a larger share of success.
60/40 of included instead of 50/50 of all is better for the owners if revenue sags (certainly a protection any business owner would value) and better for the players if business booms.
I think the stark reality is that THIS equation changed. That is why the owners primary goal was to increase the excluded calculation.
If you and I agree to split $100 either 50/50 or I get the first 10 then you get 55.5% of the rest, its the same thing. If 100 becomes 200, I need more than the first 10 to make it equitable.
Of course neither of us truly have any real understanding of the inner workings of how the owners view the expired CBA, how far away from acceptable it is, where they really feel the line should be, or even more importantly where they project their business to go in the next 5 years, which is problem the most important factor of all.



The NFL already has designations for 'football revenue' and 'non-football revenues.' Non-football revenue describes proceeds from non-NFL events at NFL stadiums, and revenues from certain side-attractions around stadiums on gamedays, among other things. Non-football revenue is retained in total by the franchise's owner -- neither the other owners nor players participate. "Football revenue" would be unadjusted Total Revenue, which is the expense-deducted "aggregate revenues... from all sources, whether known or unknown, derived from, relating to or arising out of the performance of players in NFL football games," minus a few very specific exemptions, such as luxury box money above regular ticket cost.

This includes, obviously, the shared revenue streams, in addition to any local revenue streams derived from the game -- particularly, the local licensing revenues that the players got cut out of when Jerry Jones went rogue in 1996. So, going forward, the distinction between "shared" and "retained" revenues applies only to how the revenues are divided amongst the owners -- it does not affect how the revenues are split between owners and players.

So the problem now is that in the original NFL revenue sharing plan, all franchises benefited equally from the licensing of any NFL franchise name and logo, but this no longer became the case in 1996. The 2006 CBA restored the players' share of this money, but didn't redistribute it among the owners, so now for every $32 million dollars Jerry Jones off Cowboys' licensing, the salary cap goes up $1 million dollars for every team. Since the Cowboys, Redskins, Patriots and Texans revenues are rising so much faster than the Lions, Bengals and Bills, they cant' keep up. This, and not any phantom expense increases is what accounts for the poorer franchises' shortfalls.

Again, I disagree that the 2006 CBA gave players rights to additional revenues they did not previously have, but have no inclination to researching the proof.

So, really, all you'd have to do is reset things back to the pre-1996 revenue sharing system, and the revenue disparity gap will shrink back down to size, and all of the teams would be able to afford the 50-50 split again.
Why would the owners agree to that? Your argument is that some teams make more than others, so instead of negotiation expense based on the budget of the weaker teams, they should just agree to give money from the rich to the poor, so the players don't have to suffer.


But the successful owners would argue -- and I'd agree with them -- that this takes away their incentive to pursue these local licensing deals that have been so prosperous. That's why the only workable solution is one in which the low-revenue teams are temporarily subsidized by being lent the money needed to invest in developing the local revenue streams that will help keep the revenue gap narrow, and the same 50-50 split salary cap that's worked since 1993 affordable by all teams.
Again, ownership is not interested in making sacrifices so they can continue to give the same percentage to the players.
As to your conclusion, what would you expect Ralph Wilson to do in order to create more revenue from the Buffalo market?
I think your misconception centers around the Patriots, and thinking that the revenues of the team have increased because of expenditures by Bob Kraft. That really just isnt the case. Revenues have increased because of the exploding popularity of the team.
 
No kidding? Poor ownership and poor management should be guaranteed profits regardless of their efforts to bring winners to their communities?
Again, who said anything about guaranteeing profits?



I can't think of a worse idea when it comes to making a league better than guaranteeing people millions of dollars regardless of their efforts.
Please read before responding.

Why would any bad owner sell to someone who really wants to win when they have a lockdown guarantee of millions and millions. So rather than allowing these franchises that suck to fail they should be propped up so their owners have zero motivation to sell the team and the community is stuck with a bad franchise that is guaranteed millions and millions.
Really? Your solution to the labor situation is to agree to a deal that will cause a half dozen teams to lose money? You expect that will get done?


What a great idea, i'm sure the NFL will get much better with that as the business model.
I don't know what business model you are talking about, because you butchered having any understanding of my post, but I can guarantee you that shifting money from owners to players, which seems to be your goal, will do nothing but decrease the growth rate of the league.

Look at it this way.
My company has $1,000,000,000 in revenue.
Payroll cost is $500,000,000
Other expenses are $200,000,000
Profit is $200,000,000
and the other $100,000,000 is reinvested in r&d, marketing, branding etc, to grow the company.
If I renegotiate payroll cost to $600,000,000 I can guarantee you that the extra $100,000,000 in the employees pockets and whatever portion of that is taken out of reinvestment (because I would still sacrifice SOME of the profit to invest for future success, but certainly not all.) will ****** the growth of the company.
 
If the Patriots did not win, the Patriots would still be in the same financial situation.

As I pointed out in my previous post, Robert Kraft had already turned around the Patriots' financial situation by 2000, when Forbes dubbed the Patriots the 9th most valuable franchise. Your claim is simply counterfactual.

The Cowboys and Redskins are living off the past. They, along with the Steelers were the most popular teams when people who are now at the age of being the biggest spenders becamse fans.
The Cowboys were America's team. The Redskins have one of the 5 largest fan bases in the league and have for 50 years.

Then why aren't the 49ers still one of the NFL's top earners? Or the Bills, for that matter, who were one the NFL's most popular teams in the 90's? Or the Packers, who were the NFL's first flagship franchise? Or the Raiders, who as late as the 90's still had merchandising sales better then everyone but Dallas?

Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing supporting your theory here.

Not hard to figure that out. The market lost its team, was without football for many years, and is an enormous market.

So losing its team boosted its popularity? Gee, that worked wonders for Cleveland, didn't it? Oh, and no, Houston isn't an "enormous" market. New York, LA and Chicago are the only outlier markets -- after them, Philly, Dallas, Atlanta, SF/Oakland, Houston, Detroit, and Phoenix are all comparatively neatly grouped.

Sorry, but again, you float an ad hoc guess that turns out to have absolutely nothing supporting it.

Listing each factor and finding a few examples that do not fit is not proof that your factor is correct.

Neither does coming up with some rationalization and making no effort to see if it tracks with reality. At least I'm trying to shape a theory to fit the facts.

Actually the factor that would corrolate perfectly is popularity, which is a factor of the size of fan base, and its current excitment for the team.

Would it, now? Popularity is kind of a vague metric. The Wall Street Journal tried to quantify popularity last year with a formula based on local TV ratings, national ratings, the team's website's traffic, and how much it gets mentioned on the internet. The results don't track to revenues the way you'd think. Yes, Dallas is first in both. But the Steelers come next in popularity, and they're not in the top tier of revenue earners. The Bears Packers and Vikings are 4th, 5th, and 6th in popularity, and are comparitively moribund in revenue. Then you've got those pesky Texans, ranked only 28th in popularity, yet the perennial #4 in revenue.

It strikes me that you don't seem to have a firm grasp on where teams make their money. The packaged TV rights means that though Steelers games are watched by many times more people than Jaguars games, they don't make any more money from that. Stadium gate is also shared revenue. Just because a team has a lot of fans doesn't automatically make the team able to monetize them.

Bob Kraft didn't create Patriot fans. The success of the team brought them out of the woodwork, and probably did create many fans out of ambivalent people, but Kraft did not create fans by spending money (aside from the obvious cost of the coach)

The Steelers, Packers, Colts, Vikings, Bears and Eagles all have more fans than the Patriots, but the Patriots out-earn them all by a good site. Having fans is great, but it's not the same thing as making money off them.




I do not believe that is correct, but certainly have no inclination to research it, so we'll have to table that part of the discussion.

If you don't have any inclination to know what you're talking about, then why do you have such strong opinions about it? This isn't some obscure bit of constitutional law, this is something at the very heart of the matter of the NFL's next CBA that happened only five years ago. This wasn't a low key deal -- Jerry Jones and the NFL sued one another. If you have a lexis/nexis account, I highly recommend you read this account. Or read the briefs available from the NFL v. American Needle case, which makes frequent reference.
 
As I pointed out in my previous post, Robert Kraft had already turned around the Patriots' financial situation by 2000, when Forbes dubbed the Patriots the 9th most valuable franchise. Your claim is simply counterfactual.
Most valuable and highest revenue are not the same thing, you have switched criteria to fit your argument.



Then why aren't the 49ers still one of the NFL's top earners?
You don't know that? They have been pathetic for years. Apathy of the fan base holds down merchandise sales, which is mostly what we are discussing here.

Or the Bills, for that matter, who were one the NFL's most popular teams in the 90's?
Not even close.

Or the Packers, who were the NFL's first flagship franchise?
Small market

Or the Raiders, who as late as the 90's still had merchandising sales better then everyone but Dallas?
See 49ers.

Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing supporting your theory here.
Actually it completely supports it.



So losing its team boosted its popularity?
No, getting one back did. You seriously cannot see the logic that merchandise sales for a new franchise would be strong? You can't understand that a market that lost a franchise it supported reasonably well appreciates the return of a franchise to the market and meets it with excitement? Really?


Gee, that worked wonders for Cleveland, didn't it? Oh, and no, Houston isn't an "enormous" market. New York, LA and Chicago are the only outlier markets -- after them, Philly, Dallas, Atlanta, SF/Oakland, Houston, Detroit, and Phoenix are all comparatively neatly grouped.

Houston is the 4th largest city in America. I consider that enormous.
Dallas is 9
Detriot is 18
Atlanta is 40

List of United States cities by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry, but again, you float an ad hoc guess that turns out to have absolutely nothing supporting it.
Again not guessing, and is supported.



Neither does coming up with some rationalization and making no effort to see if it tracks with reality. At least I'm trying to shape a theory to fit the facts.
Wait. You twist the facts to say my argument doesn't work with every example, and you expect yours should require no facts?



Would it, now? Popularity is kind of a vague metric. The Wall Street Journal tried to quantify popularity last year with a formula based on local TV ratings, national ratings, the team's website's traffic, and how much it gets mentioned on the internet. The results don't track to revenues the way you'd think. Yes, Dallas is first in both. But the Steelers come next in popularity, and they're not in the top tier of revenue earners. The Bears Packers and Vikings are 4th, 5th, and 6th in popularity, and are comparitively moribund in revenue. Then you've got those pesky Texans, ranked only 28th in popularity, yet the perennial #4 in revenue.
You are kidding right?
So your argument is that this study and its arbitrary and quesitonable method of gauging popularity (especially in the context of this discussion) proves that the popularity of a team does not correlate to how much money its fans spend on it. Thats just silly.
It actually isn't even arguable that popularity correlates directly to revenue. It was the starting point of a discussion of what affects popularity, but, alas we even need to argue that.:rolleyes:



It strikes me that you don't seem to have a firm grasp on where teams make their money.
It strikes me that you want to be a condescending d0uche, so this discussion will go nowhere.

The packaged TV rights means that though Steelers games are watched by many times more people than Jaguars games, they don't make any more money from that. Stadium gate is also shared revenue. Just because a team has a lot of fans doesn't automatically make the team able to monetize them.
Right, because thats what I said.:rolleyes:
But please enlighten me. Where do these teams get all of this revenue that isn't coming from their fans?



The Steelers, Packers, Colts, Vikings, Bears and Eagles all have more fans than the Patriots,
sourcde?

but the Patriots out-earn them all by a good site. Having fans is great, but it's not the same thing as making money off them.
Yeah, it kind of is. Your fan base is where your revenue comes from. The size of the fan base, combined with their current fervor for your team, your teams success, which creates that interest, along with the income level of that fan base are the factors that affect the revenue you generate. In other words all of the things I have been saying.

Other than none of the above, do you actually have anything to offer as a specific factor that causes one team to generate more revenue than another?






If you don't have any inclination to know what you're talking about,
Well, that isnt what I said is it? I said I don't care to research the details to discuss it.



then why do you have such strong opinions about it?
Yes, very strong opinion to say I suggest tabling the discussion. What a stubborn attempt to force my opinion on you.




This isn't some obscure bit of constitutional law, this is something at the very heart of the matter of the NFL's next CBA that happened only five years ago.
Then it would be very easy for you to show me that these revenues did not count in prior CBAs and do count in this one right? Shouldn't be too hard to show proof that the players scored a huge win by getting previolsly excluded revenue to now be part of the revenue they share, should it?


This wasn't a low key deal -- Jerry Jones and the NFL sued one another. If you have a lexis/nexis account, I highly recommend you read this account. Or read the briefs available from the NFL v. American Needle case, which makes frequent reference.
Not necessary. Neither address the CBA, or indicate that the NFL and NFLPA* used to not count those revenues, but now they do.
You are mistaking the shift from 50/50 of all to 60/40 after exclusion with Jerry Jones attempts to generate revenue outside of league shared revenue. Again, as I said I have no interest in researching the details, so if you want, you can just say you won this one, 'kay.
 
This is where we do not see eye to eye.
The owners will decide what is acceptable to them, and negotiate from that perspective. IMO, they have no obligation, and frankly it would be fool hardy of them, to explain the reasoning behind their business decisions.

Again, you mistake my meaning. I'm not saying we ask the owners, I'm saying that it's the question we need to answer for ourselves in order to understand the issue.


That is not true. The deduction off the top is a function of revenue, not expense.
Are you seriously saying that the owners profit is 40% of the revenue after the deduction off the top?

No. I'm saying that the deduction off the top is comprised of various credit deductions from Total Revenue for various league expenses, not that it covers the entirety of the NFL expenses.

Socks? We are really going to talk about socks?
I agree that it works out to about 50/50 (which is why I stated that it was 40% after the deduction) but there is no certainty that 60/40 after will remain 50/50 before. There is also no certainty that the expenses that come out of that 40 or 50 will rise at the same rate.

Actually, for the first bit, there is certainty. Mathematical certainty, in fact. The amount of the credit deductions off the top of TR are set by percentages of TR. There's a reason why the players' post-deduction percentage is set at 58.6 and not a straight 60% -- because the CBA was being set up specifically so that the cut remained 50-50 after the deduction off the top.

No way because you say no way? How much did the cap rise during that time?
You just said there is no evidence that expenses are rising faster than revenue and proved it by saying revenue rose 43% and the evidence that expenses are not rising as fast is you don't think it is??????

How much did the cap rise? The cap is a function of revenue, remember?

As for expenses rising -- I'm saying there's no evidence of expenses rising for the simple reason that there's been no evidence of expenses rising. Neither you, nor any of the owners, nor Goodell, nor any of the NFL's flaks, have presented any evidence of expenses rising outside of normal inflation. If there's some reason why owning an NFL franchise has gotten so much more costly, I'd love to hear it.

Until then, I'll assume I think the owners' silence on the matter speaks for itself. If there really were some huge, unavoidable spike in expenses, the NFLPA wouldn't have to twist the league's arm for financial disclosure because the owners would be shouting it from the rooftops.


Again, you want it to be true because you think it is.
You have not shown that expenses have grown equally, less or more than revenue. Stating that every new stadium expenditure has paid off in spades, is simply something you made up. If not please show how Bob Kraft has made back all of his investment in building Gillette stadium in just 9 years. Certainly you aren't telling me the difference in ticket revenues has created so much extra profit that he has paid off his debt, are you? How about Jerry Jones? There is no evidence at all yet of whether he will ever make back what he spend on that monstrosity. You want to think he will without even knowing what he spent and how much it increaed cash flow.

According to Forbes, Kraft had an annual debt service of $20 million after paying for the stadium -- but $40 million in increased revenue off of luxury seating and stadium sponsorships alone. That's just two of the additional revenue streams from the new stadium. The introduction of premium concessions, gameday side attractions, increased merchandising space, and the added draw for Patriots Place adds more. Meanwhile, in the first year of Jerry World, the Cowboys' annual revenues jumped an incredible $140 million.

It's funny, I asked you to explain to me how the NFL's revenues can grow 43% in four years without the league getting more profitable, and as usual, all you can do is continue to defer the entirety of the burden of proof onto me. You haven't made a single positive argument, you realize that right?


Sure it is. There are revenues that the players do not receive a share of. Those revenues are not all of a sudden part pf the equation, unless you go back to including them at 50/50 instead of excluding them at 60/40.
The players and owners TOGETHER agreed to change the split from 50/50 of all to 60/40 of included. There is no secret hold back, its just a different method getting to the same result. It would seem logical that both sides would think that is a good deal. The owners get protection if business slides at the expense of giving away a larger share of success.
60/40 of included instead of 50/50 of all is better for the owners if revenue sags (certainly a protection any business owner would value) and better for the players if business booms.
I think the stark reality is that THIS equation changed. That is why the owners primary goal was to increase the excluded calculation.
If you and I agree to split $100 either 50/50 or I get the first 10 then you get 55.5% of the rest, its the same thing. If 100 becomes 200, I need more than the first 10 to make it equitable.
Of course neither of us truly have any real understanding of the inner workings of how the owners view the expired CBA, how far away from acceptable it is, where they really feel the line should be, or even more importantly where they project their business to go in the next 5 years, which is problem the most important factor of all.

All I can say is that you have some pretty serious misconceptions about how the 2006 CBA works.

Again, I disagree that the 2006 CBA gave players rights to additional revenues they did not previously have, but have no inclination to researching the proof.

This being the worst. The #1 change in the 2006 CBA was the inclusion of previously excluded local revenue streams in the TR figure from which the salary cap is computed. Put simply in a paper from the Penn State Institute for Sports Law, Policy and Research :
The CBA in place before 2006 calculated the salary cap primarily through league generated revenue; it excluded significant unshared streams (like sponsorships, luxury boxes, etc.) But the players wanted a cut of all the new, unshared revenue that was being generated by new stadiums (and the settlement in 1996 that allowed teams to increase their unshared revenue), and they got that in the 2006: all stadium revenue (including unshared) was now included in the base from which the salary cap was calculated.


Seriously, you need to apprise yourself of some the very basic facts of this issue if you want to keep arguing about it.

Why would the owners agree to that? Your argument is that some teams make more than others, so instead of negotiation expense based on the budget of the weaker teams, they should just agree to give money from the rich to the poor, so the players don't have to suffer.

Hence my next paragraph.


Again, ownership is not interested in making sacrifices so they can continue to give the same percentage to the players.

And the players are not interested in making less than the 50-50 split that's been in place since 1993.

As to your conclusion, what would you expect Ralph Wilson to do in order to create more revenue from the Buffalo market?
I think your misconception centers around the Patriots, and thinking that the revenues of the team have increased because of expenditures by Bob Kraft. That really just isnt the case. Revenues have increased because of the exploding popularity of the team.

Again, you're asserting something that runs completely contrary to fact. Kraft had already turned around the Pats' finances during the 90s, and the luxury-box and sponsorship deals that boosted revenues starting when Gillette opened were inked well before the Pats' miracle season.
 
Again, who said anything about guaranteeing profits?




.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
The owners need a system where every team is profitable on football revenue,and the other revenue in excess of that is profit that the NFLPA* really has no claim to.






You did, and you reiterated several times claiming the deal needs to be based upon the financial needs of the weakest teams, so guaranteeing the financial success of the Bills and Bengals is apparently your solution to the labor problem. I.e. making sure that teams who don't make the effort to succeed should be guaranteed prolfits so they don't fail, which is as counterproductive to the league improving as a deal could be
 
Again, who said anything about guaranteeing profits?




Please read before responding.


Really? Your solution to the labor situation is to agree to a deal that will cause a half dozen teams to lose money? You expect that will get done?



.


According to you the owners had to opt out of the 2006 CBA because Jon kraft had created such a horrible deal that the owners couldn't make enough under it, although you have also steadfastly refused to provide any support for that claim and record attendance, merchandise sales, TV deals, and new revenue streams all fly directly in the face of that claim. Under that horrible deal Jon kraft wrote the Green Bay Packers, a NON PROFIT team in a market that has absolutely no business having an NFL franchise both made money and won the world championship. So unless the owners agree to a deal worse than the Kraft Deal then every team has the ability to profit and the only ones who would go under are those so poorly run they shouldn't remain in business anyways and should be sold to ownership who can make a can't miss deal work.


If guaranteed profits for all are the goal then they already had that under the 2006 deal as not one franchise has demonstrated they are losing money and even a team that had no business succeeding won the Lombardi and made money.



If you want to revisit your claims that bad franchises should be guaranteed profits by all means do so but don't try to claim you didn't say it when you are quoted as doing just that.
 
Then it would be very easy for you to show me that these revenues did not count in prior CBAs and do count in this one right? Shouldn't be too hard to show proof that the players scored a huge win by getting previolsly excluded revenue to now be part of the revenue they share, should it?



.



Wow.

You have to this point absolutely refused to provide factual evidence that NFL teams aren't making enough money but here you demand the same type of evidence?

Every team in the NFL is making money, even the non profit world champions in a market unfit for double A baseball, yet you want to see a deal constructed that insures that even the worse run franchises are guaranteed to make millions and millions and millions of dollars, ensuring that that sucky ownership will stay in charge because there is absolutely no incentive for them to give up their sacred cash cow. Nothing could be worse for the game and the league than guaranteeing bad ownership will stay in charge because their share is guaranteed.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
The owners need a system where every team is profitable on football revenue,and the other revenue in excess of that is profit that the NFLPA* really has no claim to.






You did, and you reiterated several times claiming the deal needs to be based upon the financial needs of the weakest teams, so guaranteeing the financial success of the Bills and Bengals is apparently your solution to the labor problem. I.e. making sure that teams who don't make the effort to succeed should be guaranteed prolfits so they don't fail, which is as counterproductive to the league improving as a deal could be
You are misrepresenting what I said, even while quoting it, while refusing to respond to any of my post.
You are having an argument with yourself
 
You are misrepresenting what I said, even while quoting it, while refusing to respond to any of my post.
You are having an argument with yourself


I quoted you directly, and the rst of your post was a bizarre analogy about what one company needs to survive, not a system of franchises where bad management leads to weak profits or losses.



Quoting you exactly is not misrepresenting you in any way.
 
Wow.

You have to this point absolutely refused to provide factual evidence that NFL teams aren't making enough money but here you demand the same type of evidence?
Do you read?
Of course I cannot show what they are or are not making because it is not public information. In this case however, he is stating a fact that is easily verifiable.

Every team in the NFL is making money
You just made that up.

, even the non profit world champions in a market unfit for double A baseball, yet you want to see a deal constructed that insures that even the worse run franchises are guaranteed to make millions and millions and millions of dollars, ensuring that that sucky ownership will stay in charge because there is absolutely no incentive for them to give up their sacred cash cow. Nothing could be worse for the game and the league than guaranteeing bad ownership will stay in charge because their share is guaranteed.
Again, you are prusposely misrepresenting what I say.
Please show me where I want to 'insures that even the worse run franchises are guaranteed to make millions and millions and millions of dollars, ensuring that that sucky ownership will stay in charge because there is absolutely no incentive for them to give up their sacred cash cow'. Because I never said anything close to that.

READ THIS TIME> The owners are going to need to set up a system that will make all owners profitable. Whether that is best for the players, or for you, or whether you cry yourself to sleep at night because they have more money than you, it is an incontovertible fact of what they will agree to.
Somehow you seem to think that statement of that perspective of what it is going to take equates to be supporting a welfare system for Ralph Wilson.

One day the world will end. By your comprehension I just said I am wishing for the world to end tomorrow.
 
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