Running Back - We Have THREE Open Spots

[patchick]

Whoa, part of Maroney's difficulty was teams stacking the box when he was in the game because he wasn't going to be a receiver. Green-Ellis worked hard to move beyond that, I want whomever NE drafts/signs to be prepared to catch the ball.

If your RB doesn't catch well, it gives Brady one less viable target and the defense has one less guy to spend significant coverage resources on....for me, in order for a new RB to be an upgrade, he's going to need to have not only the second-cut/second-gear that BGE apparently lacks, he's also going to need to be a legitimate pass-catching threat.

Agree with you both. I've been thinking more about the "in order for a new RB to be an upgrade" criteria, and I made a little spreadsheet to help me think. I didn't bother coding the core on-field running attributes like vision and balance, which I leave to the eye of the beholder. I just wanted to narrow down to the field of players who pass a basic screen:

- Have a better burst/speed than BJGE
- Have more bulk/power than Woodhead
- Are legitimate options to catch the ball
- Show effort and decent effectiveness in pass protection
- Don't have major ball-security issues

Below are the RBs left standing, with some notes. S=Speed/Explosion, B=Bulk/Power, P=Passing Game Contributions. Black type indicates a notable strength, red a borderline area. I = Significant Injury Concerns.

Leshoure, M (B)
Williams, R (I)
Murray, D (P, S, B)
Vereen, S (P)
Green, A (I)
Carter, D (B)
Harper, J (P)
Scott, D (I)
Allen, A (B)

 

[patchick]

A couple more musings...

- The more I look at my little list above, the more I find Shane Vereen emerging as the best all-around skill/value package.

- Anthony Allen intrigues me. I think people see a 230-lb. bruiser running straight up the middle for Georgia Tech and think "yep, that's just what Georgia Tech does. It's Jonathan Dwyer all over again." But unlike with Dwyer, we got to see some glimpses of other skill sets from Allen as a freshman at Louisville, where they involved him more in the passing game with good success. Plus on raw athletic potential, there's a world of difference:

Dwyer 5'11" 229 4.64/2.69/1.60 15 33" 08'11" 4.67 7.56
Allen 6'1" 228 4.56/2.55/1.53 24 41.5" 10'00" 4.06 6.79

Those explosion and agility numbers are exceptional for a back that size.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Agree with you both. I've been thinking more about the "in order for a new RB to be an upgrade" criteria, and I made a little spreadsheet to help me think. I didn't bother coding the core on-field running attributes like vision and balance, which I leave to the eye of the beholder. I just wanted to narrow down to the field of players who pass a basic screen:

- Have a better burst/speed than BJGE
- Have more bulk/power than Woodhead
- Are legitimate options to catch the ball
- Show effort and decent effectiveness in pass protection
- Don't have major ball-security issues

Below are the RBs left standing, with some notes. S=Speed/Explosion, B=Bulk/Power, P=Passing Game Contributions. Black type indicates a notable strength, red a borderline area. I = Significant Injury Concerns.

Leshoure, M (B)
Williams, R (I)
Murray, D (P, S, B)
Vereen, S (P)
Green, A (I)
Carter, D (B)
Harper, J (P)
Scott, D (I)
Allen, A (B)

Interesting, on first read through two names jump out where your grades and my eyes and research disagree with the conclusion. Most of the disagreement appears to come from combining blitz pick-up and receiving strength into one grade.
-- Leshoure, for all my doubts about him, proved to be a very good receiver split wide or out of the backfield.
-- Allen was a productive receiver while at Louisville, and in the role of FB for Georgia Tech demonstrated blitz pick-up and lead blocking skills to go along with his power running - and he still had nice hands out of the backfield. He's projected as a UDFA and is the one RB I very much would like in camp to compete with Kettani and Green-Ellis.

I may have to do this exercise myself. Thanks!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

A couple more musings...

- The more I look at my little list above, the more I find Shane Vereen emerging as the best all-around skill/value package.

- Anthony Allen intrigues me. I think people see a 230-lb. bruiser running straight up the middle for Georgia Tech and think "yep, that's just what Georgia Tech does. It's Jonathan Dwyer all over again." But unlike with Dwyer, we got to see some glimpses of other skill sets from Allen as a freshman at Louisville, where they involved him more in the passing game with good success. Plus on raw athletic potential, there's a world of difference:

Dwyer 5'11" 229 4.64/2.69/1.60 15 33" 08'11" 4.67 7.56
Allen 6'1" 228 4.56/2.55/1.53 24 41.5" 10'00" 4.06 6.79

Those explosion and agility numbers are exceptional for a back that size.

Oh sure, turn around and catch your oversight whilst I was posting my carping! :snob:

 

[patchick]

Interesting, on first read through two names jump out where your grades and my eyes and research disagree with the conclusion. Most of the disagreement appears to come from combining blitz pick-up and receiving strength into one grade.
-- Leshoure, for all my doubts about him, proved to be a very good receiver split wide or out of the backfield.
-- Allen was a productive receiver while at Louisville, and in the role of FB for Georgia Tech demonstrated blitz pick-up and lead blocking skills to go along with his power running - and he still had nice hands out of the backfield. He's projected as a UDFA and is the one RB I very much would like in camp to compete with Kettani and Green-Ellis.

err...so how are those disagreements?

EDIT: fwiw, on my actual spreadsheet receiving and pass protection are separate items, as are bulk and power, etc. I ruled out anybody who graded as "no help there" on either part.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

err...so how are those disagreements?

As I read you grading I see both with a "B" for Bulk/Power, but no "P" for passing. I assumed you had not graded them high in that area.

EDIT: Talking past each other again!

 

[patchick]

As I read you grading I see both with a "B" for Bulk/Power, but no "P" for passing. I assumed you had not graded them high in that area.

Ah, gotcha -- so you see both as significant "plus" guys in the passing game?

 

[mgteich]

Let's break down your comments

BEFORE FIRST RUNNING BACK
I'm not a fan of slotting when we should draft a particular position. I do agree that we should draft a front seven and an OL or two early. I too would be disappointed if we finished the second round having addressed RB but not front seven and OL. I don't think that this will or should happen.

But I could see us drafting a RB at 28 or 33 and drafting an OL or 2 a bit later.

BEFORE THE SECOND RUNNING BACK
I would not want us to consider a 2nd running back before we have our front seven addition plus two offensive linemen.

Yes, we should consider a defensive back, and we should consider defensuive back before our second running back.

I don't see the advisability of a wide receiver after the top 10 picks of the draft. Obviously, one could fall into our laps as a top value, but that seem unlikely.

....

Before the first running back is drafted I'd like to see at least one (preferably two) offensive linemen and at least one (preferably two) players to join the defensive front seven. Then before a second running back is drafted let's at the very least consider a safety, corner, and wide receiver as well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ah, gotcha -- so you see both as significant "plus" guys in the passing game?

If you combined blitz-pu with receiving all under "P" Allen gets a bright and shiny "P". Leshoure would get a lower case "p" for his receiving, his blitz-pu makes Maroney's look like Kevin Faulk.

 

[patchick]

If you combined blitz-pu with receiving all under "P" Allen gets a bright and shiny "P". Leshoure would get a lower case "p" for his receiving, his blitz-pu makes Maroney's look like Kevin Faulk.

I was bending over backwards to try to be fair to Leshoure, because his running style bugs the heck out of me. I'm perfectly happy to add "Sub-Maroney Pass Protection" to his black marks!

 

[Off The Grid]

In terms of drafting an "Alpha Back", I am a little paralysed by analysis @ this moment. Obviously I would love one, I just don't know his name right now....

That would be because there IS no Alpha Back this year, my good man.

- The more I look at my little list above, the more I find Shane Vereen emerging as the best all-around skill/value package.

Absolutely.

And as I remember, Brother Maine is behind him, I believe.

- Anthony Allen intrigues me. I think people see a 230-lb. bruiser running straight up the middle for Georgia Tech and think "yep, that's just what Georgia Tech does. It's Jonathan Dwyer all over again." But unlike with Dwyer, we got to see some glimpses of other skill sets from Allen as a freshman at Louisville, where they involved him more in the passing game with good success. Plus on raw athletic potential, there's a world of difference:

Dwyer 5'11" 229 4.64/2.69/1.60 15 33" 08'11" 4.67 7.56
Allen 6'1" 228 4.56/2.55/1.53 24 41.5" 10'00" 4.06 6.79

Those explosion and agility numbers are exceptional for a back that size.

Yeah, I love Allen.

Honestly, there're about 30 Running Backs in this Class that intrigue me.

 

[RayClay]

How about a late flyer on Mario Fannin from Auburn? More pass catching experience than rushing, but he ran a best 2.32 40 at the combine and he's 230 lbs. Plays fullback returns kicks and blocks well.

Watched a vid and he doesn't go down easy either. Obviously hasn't siezed the big role, but worth a shot if his combine time isn't leading to him being overvalued.

 

[Water Boy]

A couple more musings...

- The more I look at my little list above, the more I find Shane Vereen emerging as the best all-around skill/value package.

I agree. I think he's a perfect fit for the RBBC.

 

[townes]

Prior to this offseason i would have bet the faqrm on faulk return ing for one more year, now i have serious doubts he returns, so i guess there are 3 spots open. I would go for 1 in the draft, another in free agency, and one UDFA.

 

[BlueThunder]

How about a late flyer on Mario Fannin from Auburn? More pass catching experience than rushing, but he ran a best 2.32 40 at the combine and he's 230 lbs.

Damn he's FAST......

 

[patchick]

How about a late flyer on Mario Fannin from Auburn? More pass catching experience than rushing, but he ran a best 2.32 40 at the combine and he's 230 lbs. Plays fullback returns kicks and blocks well.

Watched a vid and he doesn't go down easy either. Obviously hasn't siezed the big role, but worth a shot if his combine time isn't leading to him being overvalued.

FWIW the item that knocked him off my list was poor ball security.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

FWIW the item that knocked him off my list was poor ball security.

Not to mention a point Parcells just made - you don't draft a RB who doesn't produce with the ball in his hands.

 

[sbpatfan]

Not to mention a point Parcells just made - you don't draft a RB who doesn't produce with the ball in his hands.

I saw that too. If Mario Fannin sucked in college why would he be good in the NFL? People put way to much into RB combine stats. Despite some "crazy speed" Fannin had one touch in the national championship game. All of his stats came against joke schools.

 

[Off The Grid]

How about a late flyer on Mario Fannin from Auburn? More pass catching experience than rushing, but he ran a best 2.32 40 at the combine and he's 230 lbs. Plays fullback returns kicks and blocks well.

Watched a vid and he doesn't go down easy either. Obviously hasn't siezed the big role, but worth a shot if his combine time isn't leading to him being overvalued.

Absolutely.

Marion Fannin has been one of the very few constants in my Mocks since November.

 

[RayClay]

FWIW the item that knocked him off my list was poor ball security.

Yeah, and other things, but he's versatile and damn, that would be a fast FB/RB/receiver. I'm talking 5th round or lower, if that's the case.