Hmmmm...

[upstater1]

The Gronk incompletion happened on the drive between the two interceptions.

1st down - BJGE run for 1 yard
2nd down - INC to Gronk, leading to 3rd and 9
3rd down - INC
4th down - punt

Thank you.

The only reason I mentioned it wasn't the INT is because I remembered the part of the field they were on.

The Cromartie INT occurred in Jets territory while the bad throw to Gronk occurred when the Patriots were back in their own end.

 

[upstater1]

You can pick on them, but I see like 10 "the coordinators suck" threads and very few "our guys make bad plays in big situations" threads. The reason for this is probably not that coordinators bear a larger part of the blame, rather it is probably because (1) coordinators are faceless and fans have no emotional connection with them, making them more likely targets of blame and (2) blaming the coordinators explains the problem without any play-by-play analysis, so it is easier to do in that respect.

It's funny, I'm seeing exactly the opposite. A dozen Brady/Moss/Butler sucks threads, and one thread questioning the adjustments/coaches. There's even a thread saying don't question the playcalling.

 

[upstater1]

LOL. Nice job ignoring my point to focus on semantics.

What? What are you talking about now? I was agreeing with you that the Gronk was poor play by Brady. The main point is though that you were criticizing Brady for bad throws in the series under discussion (the Cromartie INT series). That's why I was correcting you. That's not semantics. That just a fact.

Let's do this again: Brady at fault for not hitting Gronk.

Coordinator at fault for calling predictable running plays that lead to third and long: INT to Cromartie.

 

[emoney_33]

Interestingly there seems to be a contingent that feel that coordinators are infallible.

 

[letekro]

What? What are you talking about now? I was agreeing with you that the Gronk was poor play by Brady. The main point is though that you were criticizing Brady for bad throws in the series under discussion (the Cromartie INT series). That's why I was correcting you. That's not semantics. That just a fact.

An irrelevant one. Since you missed it, the point is, on a play by play basis, you can have a good playcall and a bad result, yet that doesn't stop people from simply looking at the aggregate of the results and saying "bad playcalling". I didn't mean to suggest that the bad throw was an isolated player error--check out Reiss's intern's breakdown of all the f ups in this game.

 

[emoney_33]

An irrelevant one. Since you missed it, the point is, on a play by play basis, you can have a good playcall and a bad result, yet that doesn't stop people from simply looking at the aggregate of the results and saying "bad playcalling". I didn't mean to suggest that the bad throw was an isolated player error--check out Reiss's intern's breakdown of all the f ups in this game.

So you generalize what posters are saying in order to argue that they shouldn't generalize?

 

[upstater1]

An irrelevant one. Since you missed it, the point is, on a play by play basis, you can have a good playcall and a bad result, yet that doesn't stop people from simply looking at the aggregate of the results and saying "bad playcalling". I didn't mean to suggest that the bad throw was an isolated player error--check out Reiss's intern's breakdown of all the f ups in this game.

I agree with that. But you're telling ME what the point is when YOU are the one who responded to MY post taking up the issue of the series on Cromartie's INT. That's what I was talking about when you interjected about Brady's bad throw.

Let's do this again.

Patriots began the series by throwing the ball 4 times in a row and thereby they moved the ball efficiently into Jets territory. Completions to Welker, Faulk and Hernandez.

Then they ran a run to Taylor for negative yardage and a screen to Welker for negative yardage.

Brady goes back on 3rd and 13, scans the field, sees 3 different receivers covered, finds Moss in one-on-one coverage, heaves up the ball, it's intercepted at the 3. Not the worst thing that could have happened on that down. Same as a punt.

I look back on the series and the last thing I say is that Brady was at fault. I don't think he was. I see a missed block by Hernandez on the Welker screen, but other than that, what's most glaring to me is the playcalling. You have the Jets on their heels. You took your foot off their throat.

This team was most susceptible to a hurry-up offense.

The last person I blame in that series is Brady. He didn't do anything wrong.

 

[letekro]

Interestingly there seems to be a contingent that feel that coordinators are infallible.

No one is saying anything of the sort. I'm sure if you through the film you can find some plays that had no chance from the beginning. But I'm sure you will also find quite a few that were well designed and were f-ed up by various players. But that's not what your "contingent" is doing. Many here are just saying---A-ha! the team can't do sh*t in the second half---MUST BE the adjustments! That's a fallacy IMO.

 

[emoney_33]

No one is saying anything of the sort. I'm sure if you through the film you can find some plays that had no chance from the beginning. But I'm sure you will also find quite a few that were well designed and were f-ed up by various players. But that's not what your "contingent" is doing. Many here are just saying---A-ha! the team can't do sh*t in the second half---MUST BE the adjustments! That's a fallacy IMO.

Could you point me to the people that are doing that? There are quite a few well respected posters who are questioning O'Brien at this point who have defended most other coordinators in the past. I don't see any "A-HA must be the coordinator" going on here at all.

Both sides are bringing up very valid points and in the end I think any rational person can agree that the problems in the 2nd half of the Jets game were a combination of both coaching and execution. (BB isn't lying when he says they need to do a better job of everything from coaching to executing).

 

[letekro]

The last person I blame in that series is Brady. He didn't do anything wrong.

OK, but what's your beef with the playcalling? Are you suggesting that if we had just continued throwing we would've sauntered right into the end zone? Are you saying that calling a run play where the blocking got annihilated was a bad play call? Are you saying that calling a screen pass where the blocking sucked was a bad playcall? Sounds like you're playing the result in an attempt to explain away poor execution.

 

[letekro]

Could you point me to the people that are doing that? There are quite a few well respected posters who are questioning O'Brien at this point who have defended most other coordinators in the past. I don't see any "A-HA must be the coordinator" going on here at all.

Both sides are bringing up very valid points and in the end I think any rational person can agree that the problems in the 2nd half of the Jets game were a combination of both coaching and execution. (BB isn't lying when he says they need to do a better job of everything from coaching to executing).

Look, there's a number of threads, some on the first page, many on the second page where the rationale is this (VERBATIM): Patriots are great in the first half. They suck in the second. The only logical explanation for this is the failure to make adjustments at halftime.

Congratulations to you if you don't subscribe to this idiocy, but it's rampant right now on this board if you take the time to look.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Could you point me to the people that are doing that? There are quite a few well respected posters who are questioning O'Brien at this point who have defended most other coordinators in the past. I don't see any "A-HA must be the coordinator" going on here at all.

It's what I'm doing, to some extent, although it's a bit of a reductionist interpretation. There are a number of reasons to question O'Brien; the consistent second-half failings suggest that he may be the culprit, and then you dig as deep as you have to from there to find however much evidence it takes to convince you.

FWIW, I've always refrained from laying blame on coordinators in the past. Even Pees.

 

[emoney_33]

Look, there's a number of threads, some on the first page, many on the second page where the rationale is this (VERBATIM): Patriots are great in the first half. They suck in the second. The only logical explanation for this is the failure to make adjustments at halftime.

Congratulations to you if you don't subscribe to this idiocy, but it's rampant right now on this board if you take the time to look.

Maybe bring that up in those threads and those instances? It seems you are in some sort of mad rush to absolve the coordinators in every thread possible. After a 2nd half like the one they just played in NJ, EVERYONE deserves blame, from Brady to Moss to O'Brien to BB.

 

[JackBauer]

Maybe bring that up in those threads and those instances? It seems you are in some sort of mad rush to absolve the coordinators in every thread possible. After a 2nd half like the one they just played in NJ, EVERYONE deserves blame, from Brady to Moss to O'Brien to BB.

Not to mention resorting to straw men arguments that I frankly don't see many people here espousing.

 

[upstater1]

OK, but what's your beef with the playcalling? Are you suggesting that if we had just continued throwing we would've sauntered right into the end zone? Are you saying that calling a run play where the blocking got annihilated was a bad play call? Are you saying that calling a screen pass where the blocking sucked was a bad playcall? Sounds like you're playing the result in an attempt to explain away poor execution.

All but the screenplay, yes.

Yes, the running plays sucked.

Running Faulk out of shotgun is effective. Running BJGE from a running formation--much less so.

And it wasn't tried once, it was tried multiple times.

Look at this in the 4th qtr, it happened AFTER the Jets stoned our running plays (and our series) twice already in the third:

1st and 10 at NE 11 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to R.Moss. PENALTY on NYJ-A.Cromartie, Illegal Contact, 5 yards, enforced at NE 11 - No Play.

1st and 10 at NE 16 K.Faulk left end to NE 24 for 8 yards (D.Coleman). NE-K.Faulk was injured during the play.

2nd and 2 at NE 24 B.Green-Ellis left guard to NE 26 for 2 yards (S.Pouha).

1st and 10 at NE 26 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to A.Crumpler.

2nd and 10 at NE 26 B.Green-Ellis right guard to NE 29 for 3 yards (M.Devito, S.Ellis).

3rd and 7 at NE 29 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to R.Moss.

4th and 7 at NE 29 Z.Mesko punts 38 yards to NYJ 33, Center-J.Ingram. J.Leonhard to NYJ 37 for 4 yards (M.Slater).

Brady is to blame here for the throw to Crumpler. The 3rd down play is a write-off because the jets were in dime and everyone was covered. Faulk ran out of shotgun. But BJGE twice? 2.5 yard average?

Then I look at passing throughout the second half. Brady's short throws were mostly on target and kept the offense moving. We had only two series in Jets territory, and both series were pass heavy. They got down there by passing. Both ended badly (INT and fumble) but the first was stalled initially by two running plays. The second was a hurry-up obviously.

I think we can break the second half down like this: those of us who had little faith in BJGE denting the Jets run defense would have preferred short passes. We look like idiots though when others point out Brady's long throws to Moss (3 of them) that ended up producing nothing. All three throws, however, were on 3rd and long situations.

Did Brady make bad throws? Yes, one to Gronk, one to Crumpler, and maybe the second INT to Moss (though AndyJohnson seems to think it was a good throw). That being said, the coordinators had a hand in the ineptitude.

 

[Kontradiction]

Well, they should have known as the Patriots are a slightly above-average running team playing against probably the best run defense in the league. I'd say their complete neutering of Ray Rice would have also set off alarm bells.

Things change week to week. The Jets offense from Week 1 to Week 2 highlights that point. Again, the fact that the team attempted more running attempts in the first half than the second half destroys the assumption that they thought they wouldn't be able to run the ball at all prior to the game.

Of course you go for your rote rushing attempts, but I'd say the expectation would be to assume an inability to run, and focus your game plan accordingly.

Assuming an inability to run would be a failure among the coaching staff. You always assume at least a little ability to run. Assuming an inability to run and instead attempting 50+ pass attempts would have resulted in an even worse loss than the 28-14 one we just experienced. Then you would REALLY have a point about Bill O'Brien.

The point about the ZBS, as was noted in the podcast, is that it's not something you use against a penetrating defense. And, as you noted, they had issues preventing penetration (heh) in the running game all game long. So why go to a scheme that essentially compounds your woes when your interior OL isn't consistently winning battles in the trenches?

This team has used to zone blocking scheme for YEARS against every type of defense... including the one that the Jets showed us on Sunday in a 28-14 loss and the one that they showed us in the blowout in the second game last season. Why go to that scheme? Because that's the one that our undersized and fleet of foot offensive line is best suited to run. Going to a different scheme mid-game when personnel failures on the interior line were to blame would have been a horrible decision. As for your last sentence...

"So why go to a scheme that essentially compounds your woes when your interior OL isn't consistently winning battles in the trenches?"

...the last 11 words seal my points about the personnel. When your personnel is failing the way they were, there's not much the coaching staff could have done to gameplan around that in order to get a win.

No comprende?

What's so hard to understand? BJGE is a JAG running back running behind an offensive line that couldn't run block. Again, these are personnel issues.

So, we don't have a running back talent issue. Green Ellis is an all-pro running back. The fault is that the offesnive line is so poor. What utter BS!

Perhaps you should practice your reading comprehension a bit more. Nowhere did I say that BJGE is an all-pro running back. He isn't. He's a JAG whose issues are compounded by a horrible run blocking interior O-Line.

You are seeing something that no one else has mentioned seeing so far. On the play in question (Brady throwing INT to Cromartie) they ran a replay and showed a TE double covered and Welker breaking his route wrong. They showed Brady scanning the field and going to Moss as a last resort. Poster AndyJohnson went over that particular play in depth in another thread he started.

Go to 1:00 in this video: YouTube - Week 2 2010: Patriots vs Jets Highlights

In this video highlight, you can see Gronkowski start off as a blocker, not having anyone to block, and then sitting out in the flats. He's open for a short dump-off pass that could have went for serious YAC up the middle of the field, especially considering the only guy he would have to get through/passed is a CB who is much shorter than he is. There isn't a LB in sight in front of him and Welker took two men with him.

Part of the disagreement is this: some of us aren't expecting much from BJGE running behind Connolly and Koppen against the Jets D. If we're not expecting much, then why is O'Brien? Sure, you can put it on the run blocking and RB... but I'm not sure where that gets us.

O'Brien is expecting the offensive line to block well and he's expecting BJGE, who is a downhill runner to be able to gain at least a couple of yards with decent run blocking. That's the expectation that most coaches should have with their team. If a coach comes in not expecting much out of the run blocking and the running backs (not just BJGE), then there is something wrong. O'Brien saw the personnel issues on the interior O-Line and in the running game, and went away from it. Those personnel issues, not the coaching staff, forced our offense to become one-dimensional.

Brady saw that it was the players themselves who were unable to make plays. He even threw some of the blame on himself. Why can't we see that?

 

[JackBauer]

Things change week to week. The Jets offense from Week 1 to Week 2 highlights that point. Again, the fact that the team attempted more running attempts in the first half than the second half destroys the assumption that they thought they wouldn't be able to run the ball at all prior to the game.

Or it could be as simple as the fact that their run game wasn't working, and, suddenly, they found themselves playing from behind?

Assuming an inability to run would be a failure among the coaching staff. You always assume at least a little ability to run. Assuming an inability to run and instead attempting 50+ pass attempts would have resulted in an even worse loss than the 28-14 one we just experienced. Then you would REALLY have a point about Bill O'Brien.

I didn't mean that to imply you should be prepared to not run at all. But you should have a contingency plan in place for the extremely likely event that you'll be unable to run. I don't really see how calling runs to BJGE on 2nd-and-10 would fit into that scheme, but there you have it.

This team has used to zone blocking scheme for YEARS against every type of defense... including the one that the Jets showed us on Sunday in a 28-14 loss and the one that they showed us in the blowout in the second game last season. Why go to that scheme? Because that's the one that our undersized and fleet of foot offensive line is best suited to run. Going to a different scheme mid-game when personnel failures on the interior line were to blame would have been a horrible decision. As for your last sentence...

If Jay S. is correct, then the Pats mixed both types of blocking schemes against the Jets. They started out in non-ZBS, had some success, then mixed in ZBS that, theoretically, wouldn't be ideal against the Jets and (surprise), realistically, sucked wind.

If his observation is indeed correct, I could call that an issue with adjustments and offensive coaching, and not execution.

What's so hard to understand? BJGE is a JAG running back running behind an offensive line that couldn't run block. Again, these are personnel issues.

And you can't blame B.O.B. for making that playcall and personnel assignment?

 

[Pewsterbaby]

Oh, there you are. You momentarily disappeared & I envisioned you passed out from typing exertion due to a high fever. I was gonna call 911...

"Where's the incident in question, sir?"

"Oh, wherever Kontrdiction is down Flawda way. You must know where. You know, Kontradiction, that famous PatsFans guy. He felt he had to get over to the computer, but it was just too much for him."

Get well soon.

 

[Kontradiction]

Or it could be as simple as the fact that their run game wasn't working, and, suddenly, they found themselves playing from behind?

The Jets taking the lead in the second half wasn't as "sudden" as you make it out to be. Nor was the lead itself so large that it would have forced the Pats to go to the air on every play. The Patriots still could have afforded to keep a good mix of runs and passes to at least try to keep the defense off guard.

I didn't mean that to imply you should be prepared to not run at all. But you should have a contingency plan in place for the extremely likely event that you'll be unable to run. I don't really see how calling runs to BJGE on 2nd-and-10 would fit into that scheme, but there you have it.

The contingency plan was in place as the Pats adjusted to pass more often, as has been pointed out. The lack of execution isn't the fault of the coaching staff. Execution comes down to the players on the field.

If Jay S. is correct, then the Pats mixed both types of blocking schemes against the Jets. They started out in non-ZBS, had some success, then mixed in ZBS that, theoretically, wouldn't be ideal against the Jets and (surprise), realistically, sucked wind.

If his observation is indeed correct, I could call that an issue with adjustments and offensive coaching, and not execution.

I can't see how he would be considering how the ZBS has been the primary blocking scheme that we've used since BB has been here. Again, it's also best suited for our offensive line. However, you who are complaining about lack of adjustments, shouldn't be complaining about this. The running game wasn't exactly setting the world on fire in the first half. The coaching staff decided to mix some things up. The interior run blocking still sucked.

And you can't blame B.O.B. for making that playcall and personnel assignment?

No. In order for this offense, or any offense for that matter, to have success, there needs to be a good mix of run and pass. Very few teams and quarterbacks are going to have success with passing the ball 50+ times while completely abandoning the running game. If calling a run play on 2nd and 10 with Brady at the helm for 3rd down is your biggest complaint about O'Brien, you should probably take a better look at your gripe.

 

[upstater1]

Go to 1:00 in this video: YouTube - Week 2 2010: Patriots vs Jets Highlights

In this video highlight, you can see Gronkowski start off as a blocker, not having anyone to block, and then sitting out in the flats. He's open for a short dump-off pass that could have went for serious YAC up the middle of the field, especially considering the only guy he would have to get through/passed is a CB who is much shorter than he is. There isn't a LB in sight in front of him and Welker took two men with him.

We are certainly seeing two different things. Brady was into his throwing motion already when Gronk broke away from blocking, and Gronk was not far off the LOS.

O'Brien is expecting the offensive line to block well and he's expecting BJGE, who is a downhill runner to be able to gain at least a couple of yards with decent run blocking. That's the expectation that most coaches should have with their team. If a coach comes in not expecting much out of the run blocking and the running backs (not just BJGE), then there is something wrong.


Yes, BJGE is not great. And, we're playing the Jets. Ray Rice and the same guys that ran roughshod over the Patriots last January were stonewalled by the Jets last week.

Those personnel issues, not the coaching staff, forced our offense to become one-dimensional.


I wish our offense had been MORE one-dimensional. The coaching staff is paid to overcome personnel issues by calling the proper plays and scheming. IMO, running BJGE against the Jets was just a waste of down.


Brady saw that it was the players themselves who were unable to make plays. He even threw some of the blame on himself. Why can't we see that?

I'd be disappointed in Brady if he caused dissension by overtly questioning the coaching staff... but rewind what Brady said. Certainly, by implication, he blamed the coaching staff in one quote.