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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by KontradictioN, Sep 21, 2010.

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  1. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I've been indisposed for the last couple of days with a really bad fever. It really hasn't gotten much better, but it's good enough that I can get out of my bed and actually visit this website. To be honest, I was expecting much worse than what I've seen so far. But, then again, I haven't seen it all yet. Anyway, with all that in mind, here are my thoughts based on what I saw...

    Offensively:
    1. The ONLY complaint I have in regards to the coaching is the fact that Gronk was used more as a blocker than a receiver in the passing game. I understand why it happened, though. The thing with playing the Jets is that they overload one side of the line with the blitz. So keeping all the blockers back that you can is understandable. However, I thought that we should have used our 6'7" athletic freak match-up nightmare of a tight end a little bit more than we did. Especially with who he would have been matched up against. In the end, Gronkowski has only been targeted three times in the last two games. In order for this offense to have more success, he'll have to be featured in the passing game more than that.

    2. The offensive line, for the most part, protected Brady well. But they were absolutely horrible in run blocking. The main culprit in the run blocking failures was Dan Koppen. He was consistently unable to handle DeVito and it showed. The inside run blocking, coupled by the failures at the RB position, were effectively what slowed down this running game and made the team increasingly more one dimensional. With that said, we could have also used a guy like Maroney in there instead of BJGE and his 1.9 YPC average.

    3. Just to compound point number two, if this offense keeps abandoning the running game to go to the air time and time again, we're not going to have much success moving the ball this season. However, I will put that fault on the personnel in the game more than the coordinators and the coaches. Logan Mankins was possibly our best run blocker. His loss was being felt against a defense the calibre of the Jets. Koppen has always had trouble against bigger DT's and it showed again on Sunday. Stephen Neal, who is normally extremely solid, also whiffed on a couple of blocks that he shouldn't have... one of them on a key third down. There's no way around it... the interior blocking HAS to be better for this offense to execute.

    4. Where has Brandon Tate been? After a solid TC and a great offseason, Tate has all but disappeared during the regular season so far. As the split end in this offense, and the WR3 in the passing game, we need more from him. Especially when he's going one on one with his man.

    5. Brady looked absolutely baffled in there at times on Sunday. I sincerely hope that this is the one stinker that he usually manages to put up year after year. After looking sharper than ever in Week 1 and spreading the ball around to the open man, Brady was making mistakes on plays like the deep throw to Moss that got intercepted by Cromartie. On that play, at least two guys were open in the passing game. One of them was Gronk who could have broken off some series YAC. His other interception to Pool was also a horrible throw. A better pass in that situation would have led to a new set of downs.

    6. Aaron Hernandez is going to be a presence in our passing game this season. His presence was felt on Sunday and I've felt good about him ever since he's been drafted. However, he whiffed on at least one block on a key screen to Welker. On screen plays, he either needs to be taken out of the game, or he needs to do a better job of blocking. If neither happen, we might as well abandon the screen or our most important slot receiver will get killed.

    Defensively:
    1. Wilfork is a beast against the run, but that's about it when it comes to our defensive line. The Jets were just the start of something we will see all season. For all intents and purposes, our starting DE's are Wright and Warren. They are huge question marks against the run. This past game saw the Patriots use packages which moved Wilfork from NT/DT to DE and the Jets, particularly Tomlinson, responded by attacking the holes that were left by Wilfork's move. Our deficiencies at DE that started prior to 2009 are something that a lot of us have been harping about as the offseason went on and those nightmares, which were not exploited by the Bengals, came to life against a divisional opponent that had clearly done their homework. On top of this, Brace also had trouble, albeit sporadically, getting off blocks against both a single OT and against double teams.

    2. Mayo, while a good WILB in most phases of his game, has to do a better job of getting off blocks by OG's. This is the one area of his game that has been a weakness since he got drafted, and it showed again on Sunday. At SILB, we saw some growing pains with Spikes, who also had trouble getting off of a few blocks. On top of that, he also blew important coverages... one of them on a big reception by Keller.

    3. The tackling, all the way around, took a huge step back from Week 1 to Week 2. From our LB's to our CB's to our safeties, the tackling flat out sucked this past week. That's something that has to absolutely drive the coaching staff, particularly Belichick, absolutely crazy. It's also something that needs to be corrected because we had numerous opportunities to get off the field which were subsequently blown because of missed tackles.

    4. On top of our DE's getting completely taken out of running plays by the Jets' OT's, the only OLB who showed even a remote knack for setting the edge was Jermaine Cunningham. Even then, he wasn't consistent at it. The OLBs' presence against both the run and the pass was something that was a question mark for this defense entering the offseason. Sadly, it's still a question mark. However, with that said, I like what I saw from Cunningham in particular. He showed good technique in getting a push toward the backfield on multiple plays. He should have a bright future with us if he keeps this up. Sadly, I can't say the same for Ninkovich in any area. Absolutely no ability to set the edge, not much better in the pass rush, and a liability in coverage.

    5. We officially started seeing our growing pains at CB this last Sunday. I don't think I really need to go into detail on Butler. It was apparent to anybody with a set of eyes how badly he got abused. However, McCourty didn't hold up much better either. This was evidenced on the TD play to Cotchery, who made a simple double move on McCourty, then cut back inside for the easy TD. This should be the first of many growing pains this season as our young corners learn on the run. We need to offset this with better play from the front seven. However, with the personnel issues we have there, I'm not sure how much easier we can make life for our young corners.

    6. I have never been one to harp on the pass rush here, but it would be inappropriate if I didn't mention it today. Earlier, I was going to go with a description of "utterly abysmal" to describe the pass rush, but that would be a compliment. Instead, I'll go with "completely non-existent". At one point, I counted Sanchez having six seconds to stand back in the pocket in the second half in order to complete a pass. That's absolutely unacceptable. Rodak, IMO, did a good job of pointing out that the Patriots defense probably could have afforded to be a little more aggressive in the second half on Jets' passing plays. However, by my watch, we still weren't having much success getting to Sanchez even on blitzes. While the earlier dynasty didn't live on the pass rush, it was able to generate one from multiple angles which consistently got to the quarterback. This defense? Not even close. If that keeps up, quarterbacks like Manning, Rivers, Rodgers, and even Roethlisberger are going to absolutely pick us apart.

    Two sad facts:
    1. Mark Sanchez outplayed Tom Brady in this game.

    2. Having gone 21/30 for 221 yards and 3 TD's, Mark Sanchez completed a career day against our vaunted defense. That makes him the third quarterback since the start of the 2009 season to have a career day against the Patriots defense, joining the immortal Chad Henne and the venerable Kyle Orton.
  2. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Ron Brace started this game at LDE, did he not?

    I'd also say that TBC had a pretty solid game in both aspects.

    Not much else to add, beyond those two points. Other than to say I'm pretty surprised to see that's the only complaint you have with respect to the coaching.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  3. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    With as many people as we have playing DE and as sick as I was, I'm really not sure who was the "starter" at LDE. But I did see Brace in early.
  4. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The play of the team in the second half was enough to make someone sick
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  5. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The problems this team went through on Sunday were OBVIOUSLY personnel related. It's actually so obvious that it's laughable. There's not much that the coaching staff can do to coach around those personnel issues to turn this 28-14 loss into a win.
  6. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Rodak noted that he played well most of the game, though he did struggle a bit with double teams in the second half. I think that's to be expected.

    I have a hard time blaming the FO for the current DL or CB situation. Fact is, a line of Brace-Wilfork-Warren with G. Warren-Pryor-Wright as subs would be fine.

    But, as always seems to happen with this team, we have the usual season-ending injuries at critical spots. Balls.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  7. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    You might want to listen to the podcast, as there are many who would disagree with that assessment.
  8. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I listened to the podcast. I'm just not in favor of throwing the "adjustment" blame entirely on the coaching staff when Brady made some of the horrible throws that he made. The only problem that I can throw entirely at the coaching staff is the misuse of our huge second round tight end.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  9. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    Your #1 point on Defense is the one that scares me the most. Not being able to stop the run with the front 7 destroys BB's ability to gameplan on D and will result in even more pressure on a young secondary. Worse, there's nothing you can really do about it. 2002 all over again, I'm afraid.
  10. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Well, clearly the blame belongs with the players and coaching staff. Brady played terrible, and he/they keep(s) trying to force it to Moss.

    However, this trend of complete and total second-half collapse is a bit worrisome, no? What kind of personnel issue could there be to cause such implosions? Especially when you have Jets players essentially come out and declare that they adjusted to our adjustments and proceeded to mash us into a pulp.

    One thing I'll agree with you on is that I hope OC is a priority next offseason. Seeing Koppen get utterly manhandled by Kris Jenk...err...Albert Hayn...err...Jay Rat...err...oh, Mike friggin' DeVito is beyond embarrassing.
  11. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    Do you think Bill has Caserio's phone number?
  12. West Philly Patriot

    West Philly Patriot Rookie

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    I just wanna let you know that i blame your absence from the forum on sunday as the catalyst for this heart wrenching loss :enranged:

    Nah but in all seriousness i for one thought the coaching could've been better in certain aspects but there is no doubt in my mind that we just need to play better call it execution, lack of concentration whatever. But you made some good points we are a young D and these things are to be expected but I also saw brady just flat out miss throws and not go through his progressions. Which just baffles me as a patriot fan having watched him make soo many good decisions with the football. Gronk has to be apart of this offense going forward agreed 100%

    Get well soon kontra.
  13. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Haven't been able to re-watch the game but after going over the play by play and drive chart, I'm starting to lean back to this side. 3 of the 5 2nd half drives ended in turnover that was at least as much to blame on the players than the calls. A 4th drive ended in a 3 and out that contained an underthrow to Gronk on 2nd & 9. And the 5th drive was a 3 & out I can't remember but it was INC to Crumpler, run for 3, INC to Moss, punt. I think this INC to Moss may have been the lousy decision/throw that Moss had to play D on to avoid another INT.

    Btw, your recollection of the 1st INT is off, no one else was open and Moss was 1 on 1.
  14. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, it's been pointed out in the "stop blaming the coordinators" thread, but I'll point it out again. You can directly point to the personnel for the second half collapses more than anything else. Mistakes like the ones that were made in the Jets game come with the "getting younger" territory which, as of right now, we are firmly in.

    Look, I really don't want this to turn into another coordinator bashing thread. That's why I gave this post it's own thread and got that point out of the way right off the bat. However, a lot of people bashing the coordinators, particularly O'Brien, should go back to 2005 and take a look at McDaniels. If they don't want to do that, they should take a look at last week against the Bengals.
  15. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Have to disagree with this. The replay showed Brady scanning the field looking for 3 different options before he even looked to his far right. TE was double covered (I couldn't see the WR on his left in the replay), and Welker broke his route wrong, smack into double coverage. Brady seemed to go to Moss as a last resort. It was 3rd and 13. The ball ended up with the Jets at the 3. Not the worst outcome right there.
  16. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    I'm not really sure how this argument holds water logically with respect to the offense, but I'll just leave it at that.
  17. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    Actually, it's blaming the coordinators that doesn't make logical sense. It's intellectually lazy and that's precisely why it has such broad-based appeal. When you blame the coordinators, you can just say "The players played poorly because they had a bad plan." It requires zero actual analysis. However, to blame the players, you actually have to look at each individual play to see what happened. I'm not saying I've done that, but I can point to several plays where Brady made terrible throws that cost this team. The intern on Reiss's blog does a pretty good job of showing what went wrong on key plays, and, of course, it's players making bad plays. It's no surprise they make more bad plays on the road in the second half because the players' faults become more apparent as the pressure mounts.
  18. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It wasn't about the offense. I was talking about the defense in that post, specifically addressing your "second half collapses" complaint. On offense, it all started and ended with the play at the quarterback position compounded with the interior blocking that destroyed the running game and turned this offense into a one dimensional offense this past weekend. Those are absolutely personnel issues.
  19. Krugman

    Krugman Rookie

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    Nice post Kontra.I had to work on Sunday,so I dvr'ed the game,now I have some things to look for when I get time to watch it.
  20. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I'm still not buying it. With the playcalling leading us into 3rd and longs, an INT at the 3 is not exactly the most undesirable outcome. Too much emphasis on the INT, IMO.
  21. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    They knew they were going to be a one-dimensional offense going into the game, unless they really thought they were going to have much success throwing to Moss repeatedly and running the immortal BJGE for 2 yards on 2nd-and-10. Moreover, why would they call runs out of a ZBS when Koppen has been more or less out to lunch the entire game?
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  22. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Funny, i consider it intellectually lazy to do the opposite. To simply look at an INT and not realize what lead up to it, including the playcalling. The playcalling, when it's predictable or not smart (i.e. running against the Jets when they are keying on it), leads you to third and long. The zones are then flooded with DBs, and the Jets rushers still manage some pressure. Then what? Then-->INT.
  23. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When does the coaching staff take any responsibility for not winning games on the road and not being able to score in the second half?

    Since the beginning of 2009, we won a game in London and one in Buffalo. And then, there is the string of losses.

    We were not able to put teams away in 2009 as we did in 2007.

    We're told that there is nothing for the coaches to do. Well, if the offensive coaches can't figure out a way to score points with the offense we had in 2009 and have in 2010, we probably need a new set of coaches. We have a lot of talent on offense.

    In the past, we have had season with all sorts of holes in the offense. The coaches found away around the weaknesses.
  24. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    I think there's plenty of blame for both sides (players/coaches). At what point do you start to hold coordinators and coaches accountable for their performance, or lack thereof?

    I've been reticent when it comes to criticizing the coordinators because they're new and inexperienced. But at some point I think you have to start to question whether or not the necessary development is occurring, and I guess we'll see as the year progresses.

    I don't think it's always sloppy to pick on offensive coordinators for their team's woes. Jason Garrett, in Dallas, for example, is a terrific example.
  25. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with most everything you said, although i didn't see the bad throws on those INT's. Bad decision, maybe, but that's a whole different matter and a case where it shouldn't be a bad decision, but it has been more often than not since late 2007. No QB is perfect and they all make the occasional bad read or errant throw just like elite WR's make mistakes. Brady and QB's of his ilk do way less of that than average, although they tend to get lumped into the mix in part because kneejerk thinkers forget that we don't know where the receiver was supposed to be and guys who look open on broadcast tape aren't always necessarily as open as they appear nor are they open even if appearing open in a spot where the post snap defense dictates they should be...as opposed to a spot where if the QB tries to hit them despite his progression he may look even stupider after the fact...
  26. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think they knew that they were going to be a one dimensional offense going into the game at all. The amount of runs in the first half as compared to the second half shows that assumption to be false. As for your complaints about the zone blocking scheme, you should look at how the outside blockers fared. Light, aside from one play, was solid as was Vollmer. Neither were all world, but they were solid. The interior issues should be more or less blamed on personnel. Koppen is an undersized center whose struggles have increasingly become more and more clear. Connolly is a third string LG who has been forced to start and had his fair share of issues in the game. And Neal has been a good RG for us but has been injury prone and has had issues related to his age. In all, the interior run blocking should be blamed more on the personnel in the game and less on the coaching and the scheme.

    Like I said, you can't blame Bill O'Brien when Brady is making some of the throws that he was making out there. You can't blame Bill O'Brien when BJGE is taking sizeable reps behind an offensive line that, for all intents and purposes, cannot run block. You CAN blame Bill O'Brien for not using Gronkowski more in the passing game, though.
  27. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, it should be noted that on the particular INT in question, it's not so much the decision that I have a problem with. I did note that there were other options open, the biggest of which was Gronk who would have had a lot of room after the catch and would have only had to beat a CB. However, the decision to go to Moss when he was 1-on-1 with Cromartie is fine. If you're going to make that decision, though, you have to make a better thrown than the one Brady made.
  28. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    Yes, let's look at what got them to third and long. For example, BOB or BB, or whoever is responsible for calling plays, calls a play on 2nd and 9 that results in 6' 7" Rob Gronkowski streaking 30 yards down the seam with 5' 9" Kyle Wilson trailing in single coverage. Brady throws the ball woefully short, allowing Wilson to catch up and break up the pass. The result: 3d and long. Now, instead of looking at this play individually and saying "that's a good playcall and bad execution," and then going through the plays in the same manner, you look at the aggregate result of all the plays (bad) and conclude, "bad plan". This is the intellectual laziness of which I speak. (Btw, I'm finding it hard to believe that you actually think the Jets were "keying" on BJGE with Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Tom Brady on the field)
  29. ctpatsfan1

    ctpatsfan1 Rookie

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    well doesn't the bold statement then counter completely the statements by anyone who said we didn't make any adjustments in the 2nd half?
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  30. emoney_33

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    The 1st INT is arguably a bad throw since Cromartie had position the entire time but it was a 3rd & long, last resort heave that ended up as "good as a punt" so whatever. The 2nd INT is absolutely a bad throw and there's really no way to argue that if you watch the play. Moss almost made up for the bad throw manipulating Cromartie away from the ball and getting himself in position to make a reach for it, but alas there was not enough glue on the hand :p
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