Suh to the Pats? It can happen?

[DW Toys]

McCoy would make a horrible 3-4 end, he is only a 4-3 DT imo. Penetration is his biggest ( only ? ) strength, which would be completely wasted in our system.

Yet you have guys that really want us to Draft Ordick at #22. Talk about a waste. How does this guy even grade a second round pick? He's a third rounder at best.
DW Toys

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Just to stay zany, what if McCoy fell to 6 or 7? He would make a great 3-4 end and instantly improve the pass rush.

Trade Patriots pick #22, #57 and the Patriots 2011 first rounder. Assuming the Patriots end up around pick 25 next year the trade is about equal.

NFL draft-pick value chart - NFL - ESPN

McCoy is strictly a 4-3 under tackle. He would require a ton of projecting and even more coaching to be considered in any 5 technique.

Suh on the other hand is almost perfect at DE in our defense. He plays the run incredibly well and reads his cues perfectly. He also has the power and moves to require double teams from opposing Olines on passing downs.

If I am the Rams I would always take a franchise QB with the #1 pick. But if there is any doubt at all in Bradford's ability to be that franchise QB, then I am bailing on Bradford and taking Suh.

 

[cstjohn17]

McCoy would make a horrible 3-4 end, he is only a 4-3 DT imo. Penetration is his biggest ( only ? ) strength, which would be completely wasted in our system.

Thats part of the problem, the Patriots system sucks. The NFL has passed it bye. It needs some adjusting,.

I don't think this will happen but Wilfork was considered to have a one gap, up the field mentality and he worked out ok. McCoy is a superior talent, I think he could adapt.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Yet you have guys that really want us to Draft Ordick at #22. Talk about a waste. How does this guy even grade a second round pick? He's a third rounder at best.
DW Toys

People rate him because the measurables are outstanding. But when you watch the tape, things don't appear so great. In the bowl game against a weak LSU O Line, he basically failed to rate.

I think that if Odrick came to us, he would need a year in the S&C program and on the practice field to learn the system before becoming a full time starter in the base defense.

I would take Odrick at #44, but at #22, I think we have better options.

 

[SeauOUCH]

You could be right! But....As the Lions, they are stuck looking for suitors. If he gets a top three or four, we might be stuck with it.
DW Toys

There is no such thing as being stuck with a pick, teams stick to the out of date trade value chart are just to stupid to lower their asking price. If BB was "stuck" with the #1 pick & he really didnt want it I bet you anything he would trade it for horrible chart value. ( ex. 1st for #10 + a 4th ) Most GM's don't have the balls ( & job security ) to make this kind of move cause they would get crucified by their fans & the media of "giving away the top pick".

Next year should have a rookie cap anyways so next years top pick should be much more valuable.

 

[DaBruinz]

I suspect you're getting that reaction because the trade you proposed doesn't seem realistic. Look at the precedent for trading up high in the draft. In 2004 the Giants gave up their 3rd, 2005 1st + 2005 5th just to move up three spots from #4 overall.

The cheapest move up ever was last year's Mangini-Tannenbaum sweetheart deal to move 12 spots from #17 to #5...and you're proposing essentially identical value to that deal to get you from #22 to #2 for a player who is coveted by far more teams than Sanchez was.

Unfortunately, none of DW's trades seem realistic. They are almost always poorly thought out, almost never take into consideration the financial aspects, and almost always include guys that he's got a huge distaste for.

 

[SeauOUCH]

Thats part of the problem, the Patriots system sucks. The NFL has passed it bye. It needs some adjusting,.

I don't think this will happen but Wilfork was considered to have a one gap, up the field mentality and he worked out ok. McCoy is a superior talent, I think he could adapt.

:bricks:

Wilfork was a decent DT 1 gap penetrator in Miami but even if BB agreed with you that his system sucks & traded up for McCoy we would still need 2 good 4-3 DEs ( cause we have zero on the roster ) McCoy is an elite 4-3 DT prospect only, he cannot play 4-3 DE.

Ochmed I agree with you 100% on Odrick, he just doesnt stand out to me on tape when I watched PS play this year ( granted I only saw 4 of their games ) Thankfully it seems he may be climbing the draft boards & will hopefully be picked before #22. If we trade up for him I will be pissed.

 

[VJCPatriot]

If the Raiders fall flat we could be looking at paying a top five pick in 2011. I am sure BB thought of that so the single digit Draft picks could happen...right?.

DW Toys

Except the 2011 draft has the promise of a Rookie Cap. For that reason 2011 first round picks are much more attractive if you're picking high. If Suh were coming out in 2011 and we didn't have to pay him the ginormous salary and signing bonus I might half consider, this idea but the Lions would never do it anyways, because the value doesn't match.

What I'd much rather do is trade our #22 to Detroit and get their 2nd this year and their 1st in 2011. Assuming of course that they wanted to secure a starting quality tackle who lasted to pick #22, like perhaps an Anthony Davis, to protect Stafford's blindside.

 

[TriplecHamp]

The trade value chart is way outdated, teams that want out of the top 5 picks know that they aren't going to get what that pick is "worth". 22 and a first next year with a player or two would fetch that #2 plus a 5th or 6th. Id be upset if we did it though, we need a pass rusher and a WR more than we need a 3-4 DE.

 

[patchick]

The trade value chart is way outdated, teams that want out of the top 5 picks know that they aren't going to get what that pick is "worth". 22 and a first next year with a player or two would fetch that #2 plus a 5th or 6th.

They may not want to keep #2, but dropping all the way to #22 is a hard sell. I suspect Detroit is aiming for the 8-14 range where they could pick up a Haden, Spiller or D. Williams, all of whom should be gone by 22.

 

[jeffbiologist]

I proposed this exact trade a couple weeks ago but tweaked it a bit last week....Those 2 draft picks get you in the neighborhood but the Lions are also looking for a big time guard....Mankins, IMHO, is in his last year here and like McNabb is maxing value right now. No way can we franchise him with the price paid to big-time guards. The team really likes Light, and he is more likely to take a pay cut to get bumped inside when Vollmer comes along....sooner than later. Detroit wants to move the pick having paid big $$ in alot of hi picks recently. We have cap room when it comes back with all these vets being cut the last couple years. If we like Suh and he is on the clock at pick #2....watch out.

 

[jays52]

They may not want to keep #2, but dropping all the way to #22 is a hard sell. I suspect Detroit is aiming for the 8-14 range where they could pick up a Haden, Spiller or D. Williams, all of whom should be gone by 22.

This is likely the most accurate description of the situation. Moving 20 places down is a tough pill to swallow when you have the opportunity to add a franchise level player. However, let's say that they were hypothetically given sufficient ammo to move from 22 into the mid teens.

I think that in order to get Suh, NE would have to give up 22, their '11 first, and a second in the form of a trade down resulting in a 3rd and the subsequent trade of that and a 4th, and likely some late round minor ammo. Suh is the best prospect for the NE defense since Seymour (and in all likelyhood, better), but I don't think that's worth it.

 

[crowell33]

Best case scenario is Suh drops to the Chiefs at #5. If Pioli will take the Raiders #1 next year ( probably with a rookie wage scale ), and the #22 first rounder this year, and one of the second rounders this year, Pats may consider.

If Pats hit on a pass rusher to put opposite TBC, and WR with the other second rounders, we might be on to something.

 

[Seneschal2]

Nobody wants what Suh will cost, but the Pats might not get down that low to get a blue chipper for some time (and hopefully only by trade).

One "blue chip" player does not automatically equal Super Bowl victory. Let's first start with creating a roster of players who fit the system, while making room for a few potential impact players who can be found outside the draft's top 10.

There are several key positions in need of upgrade, and for this -- picks are required.

 

[DW Toys]

Unfortunately, none of DW's trades seem realistic. They are almost always poorly thought out, almost never take into consideration the financial aspects, and almost always include guys that he's got a huge distaste for.

OK, Who am I trading now that I hate?
I don't hate Brace. I have no real thoughts on him but he fits a 4-3 DT better than our supposed 3-4 so I guess I am pretty cool to understand that and you don't. My poorly thought out trade makes sense but as I have said, yes financials must be considered. I did make mention.

If you read what I said, please note that I felt Brace was a pick that had a lot to do with VWs contract. I actually thought about that. Did you? Agree?

FACT:
They Lions want out of 2

Although I am not a Suh jock sniffer, he could make sense in our D and arguably one of the best D-Linemen in the last few years.

He would adapt quite nicely to a 5 Tech DE like Seymour.

Seymour would have cost us more to keep (financials)

We have some ammo that the Lions could like

The Lions had interest in DT Hargrove and he was resigned by the Saints who intend to keep him.

If they get a DT, there are four decent OT's that will be available around #22 for the Lions

Brace is better suited for a 4-3 DT and was a second round talent.

Brace will sit third NT behind VW and Pryor (perhaps even Wright)

If BB sees a pick at second third or tenth in the Draft he will go after that guy if he needs to. He traded up for Jackson and Slater and they were never a win. Maybe Suh would be.

Our non CBA financial situation is not bad this year.

There are no guarantees that a new CBA will be done in 2011 and the Financials could be worse or as bad.

DW Toys

 

[patriotscpfc]

He traded up for Slater...

Yes. In the 5th round. Not giving up the farm for it all.

Although I am not a Suh jock sniffer, he could make sense in our D and arguably one of the best D-Linemen in the last few years.

Which is why he is a top 5 pick and going to a weak team.

We cannot get up into the top 5 without ruining the future for the team.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I think we should do it just so we can end all this 4-3 and 3-4 talk.

If we get Suh we will be a 4-3 team

... we can then go on to contemplate if we are a 1 or 2 TE type of team.

 

[DW Toys]

I think we should do it just so we can end all this 4-3 and 3-4 talk.

If we get Suh we will be a 4-3 team

... we can then go on to contemplate if we are a 1 or 2 TE type of team.

I see Suh here as a Tech 5 DE ala Seymour in a 3-4.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

He traded up for Slater...

Yes. In the 5th round. Not giving up the farm for it all.


Which is why he is a top 5 pick and going to a weak team.

We cannot get up into the top 5 without ruining the future for the team.

So I ask you again Cousin. Would You trade our #22, our #53 and Brace for Suh? I can't see that as a mortgage of our future. #22 and #53 plus Braces' salary are still a consideration to be paid and if added together may make the #2 money aspect closer.


Miguel, are you reading any of this? You have an idea of the approx. costs?
DW Toys

 

[patchick]

So I ask you again Cousin. Would You trade our #22, our #53 and Brace for Suh? I can't see that as a mortgage of our future. #22 and #53 plus Braces' salary are still a consideration to be paid and if added together may make the #2 money aspect closer.

Heck no, you're not even in the same stratosphere.

Last year's #2 overall signed a six-year, $61.775 million contract (final two years voidable), with $33 million guaranteed.

Vs.:

#22 five years, $12.05 million, $8.425 million guaranteed
#53 four years, $3.47 million, $1.72 million guaranteed
Ron Brace has 3 years left, <$3 million total.

Not that it matters, since #22, #53 + Brace wouldn't get you close to #2.