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Will the real fans please stand up


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ChickenLittle said:
BB sucks as a GM because he didn't get player Z


KoolAid said:
We should give a proven FO the benefit of the doubt. Just because you don't like BB's decision doesn't mean its bad.


See, I've summed up the whole argument for the entire patsfans board.

No more need to exert effort typing the same thing. Just copy and paste. :D

Are you negative? Copy ChickenLittle. Do you like Koolaid? Copy Koolaid.

Now isn't that much easier? :D
 
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Jets restructuring Cromartie's contract
Cromartie...has been dealing with some off-field and financial issues, including owing back-payments to a former agent.

The Jets are converting part of Cromartie’s $1.7 million salary for 2010 into a bonus (roughly $500,000), which he can receive now, rather than him have to wait until September...

Ross Tucker (SI_RossTucker) on Twitter
No. It's all about the benjamins. RT: @lodestonemike @SI_RossTucker Do u think Cards FAs bolted b/c Warner retired?
10 minutes ago via OpenBeak
 
I was going to post on here a few days ago...but there are so many idiots on here screaming and crying that the pats didnt do anything in the first 48 hours. CHILL THE F OUT
 
There is a future for you in politics. Or coaching the Patriots. You seem to believe that the cap in 2011 will be larger than it was in 2009. And you don't disagree with me that the owners will want a greater piece of the pie. Those two points are diametrically opposed to each other (owners get more and players get more) unless there is a new and significant infusion of cash. At the worst time in a generation for expecting new and significant infusions of cash.

Lottery deals is a new and significant infusion of cash. The Patriots announced theirs in August, 2009 after the 2009 cap limit was announced.
 
I was going to post on here a few days ago...but there are so many idiots on here screaming and crying that the pats didnt do anything in the first 48 hours. CHILL THE F OUT

This should be the motto for this forum for awhile. :D
 
Lottery deals is a new and significant infusion of cash. The Patriots announced theirs in August, 2009 after the 2009 cap limit was announced.

BTW, I'm actually asking these questions to get educated, not to be difficult. Do you know if lottery money is included in the shared revenue pool (or is the concept newer than the last CBA agreement)? Also, what kind of money are we talking about and is it a league wide thing (particularly in small markets) or just local? From what I can gather, the Patriots look to be pocketing at max $15M.

Didn't consider lotteries as a league-wide revenue source. Did a quick check and every state with a team has a lottery. So the potential is there for having a coordinated NFL affiliation with state lotteries. I would think that lottery deals would be like stadium naming rights though. There is a big difference between the lotteries in NY, Cali and Florida vs. those in Louisiana, Indiana and Tennessee. I can't imagine Jerry Jones kicking in $50M to go along with the Colts $3.95 contribution. If there is a consolidated league effort, this is a good source of supplementary revenue. Don't see it moving the cap needle unless there is a lot more money in play than it seems.
 
I love how he assumes I started this had a "chest thumping" thread. I started it cause all I saw was people complaining AFTER A FEW HOURS how the Pats were failing and that resigning players was not worth anything.

I started cause iwas sick of it. I am a fan I am a "homer" , I don't think every move they make is right but I am not going to flip out after a few hours and they miss out on a couple of players.

Konta if you want to assume you can read my mind then please go right ahead and do it
 
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Do you know if lottery money is included in the shared revenue pool (or is the concept newer than the last CBA agreement)?

That is my take from the CBA.

"Total Revenues shall include, without limitation:.....
(3) Revenues derived from concessions, parking, local advertising and promotion, signage, magazine advertising, local sponsorship agreements, stadium clubs,....

If it does not, the owners can include in the TR as part of the CBA. The owners have to give up something.
 
Other than Boldin and maybe Walters, whom would you have NE target?

I've already answered this one. I'd like to see any one of T.O., Bryant, Mason, and maybe Branch (if the FO thinks he's healthy). I don't much mind Josh Reed being brought in either. Guy had a pretty good 2008 season with Trent Edwards throwing him the ball and was all but phased out of Buffalo's offense last season. IMO, he would be good in our system.

And let me make myself clear going forward: I do not, for one second, think we should just mail it in this offseason and season just because we missed out on Boldin. Would Boldin be a better option than all of the above guys? Yes. He's been, bar none, the best #2 WR in the NFL ever since Fitzgerald joined the Cardinals. $10M in guarunteed money is not a lot, IMO, to bring him in and line him up across from a GOAT in Moss.

At what point does Boldin join Peppers in asking too much for you?

When his regular salary, not counting guarunteed money, hit the $10M per year level. As of right now, he's making $7M a year with $10M guarunteed.

-- NE asked Boldin to assume some of the risk (you say you can play in our system and are healthy, all you have to do is walk onto the field in game one and you get your $3M). NE treated Boldin like Randy Moss - why shouldn't they ask him to follow the precedent of a Hall of Fame receiver?

Because I don't think we have the leverage right now to ask big time free agents to come here to take a paycut or a one year "prove it" deal. With Moss it was gravy. Not only was he playing with Tom Brady but the Patriots were just coming off a season in which they advanced to the AFCCG and came a hair away from advancing to the Super Bowl without him. This year, Boldin would be coming into a team that is clearly in full rebuild mode on one side of the ball and is coming off of a season in which they really looked like the teams of the past only for a few games, stumbled down the stretch a bit, and got creamed by the team that WAS willing to extend itself to him a bit more. It was really a no-brainer for him. See, you see Boldin not signing with New England as being Baltimore's fault for "throwing the bank vault at him". I disagree completely. I see Boldin not signing with New England as being our fault. The injury concerns are extremely overblown as he's only suffered ONE serious injury in his NFL career and still managed to come back and play that season. The money concern is overblown because Baltimore got him at a good price. IMO, the draft picks are overblown. Yes, this draft is deep, but there are (by no means) any guaranteed guys that are going to come in here and make the impact that Boldin could have made right off the bat.

Sam Aiken was a band aid. Joey Galloway was a hole. People attack Sam as if he was some demonic force who came in to suck the life out of the team - the guy played pretty well for a receiver who probably didn't get as much route time with Tommy as the primaries.

I say hole, you say band-aid. The bottom line is that Sam Aiken should have never been put in the position to be playing WR for this team and, yet, he was. And no, Sam Aiken did not play well. He had 20 receptions for 326 yards and 2 TD's. Those two TD's came on plays in which the defense just completely blew the coverage (Tampa Bay... that was one of the most ridiculous displays of wide open I've ever seen) or a play in which the DB had actually BEATEN AIKEN on the route but the throw was poor which made Aiken actually able to go up and grab it, then saw the DB that was in one on one coverage fall down so he could gallop for a TD. On top of all of this, he regularly struggled to get open DESPITE the fact that defenses really did not give a damn about him and were rolling their coverage over to Moss and Welker. Sorry, Box. I usually trust your analysis, but I have to say that I'm completely shocked to hear you say that Aiken "played well".

A hole? Connolly played as well as Hochstein has in years past for us, much better than Yates did, I never considered Hoch a "hole" behind Neal. If Billy was NE's primary interior reserve again I'd agree with you, but Wendell looked to outplay Connolly to my eyes, Ohrnberger and Bussey have had one year of conditioning and coaching (or will by April) and NE has Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kaczur, and Vollmer who all started a substantial number of games as rookies to justify waiting for the draft if they want to acquire additional competition for RG. Not a hole, merely a competitive and still uncertain position.

Maybe I'm just arguing semantics here (wouldn't be the first time), but I think that an uncertainty at a position should be counted as a hole. Connolly wasn't as terrible as his haters here made him out to be, but he certainly didn't play as well as his proponents have been saying either. I've heard good things about Bussey but the fact of the matter is (and you know where I'm going with this as I've said it before) that we still do not know anything about him as a professional football player. Same thing with Ohrnberger. As for Wendell, well, he's still behind Connolly on the depth chart which would mean, if anything happened to Neal, guess who we would probably be seeing again? Either way, I don't think it would hurt to draft a RG prospect on day two to come in and compete. Of course, Neal will be the starter. That's what he was signed for. But he's only got two more years left with us so we should start thinking about bringing someone in right now who can pick up where he leaves off two years from now.

Well, whether he's a run stuffer or not, TBC did close that window a bit from where it was. NE made an offer to Peppers. Burgess is reportedly still on the radar. Ninkovich was looking pretty good in a reserve role and is a year wiser. Woods has been tendered, perhaps he can bounce back and play the way he did in 2008, and Charlie Casserly is calling this an incredibly deep draft class (okay, there I shot myself in the foot ;) ) - day "two," my worry meter is still pegged on zero.

It's definitely a good thing that TBC was brought back. Props to the FO for realizing how important he is as he was pretty much the only semblance of a pass rush on this defense. I'm not high on Burgess at all. He improved only a little bit over last season. His trade was a bad one, in my opinion. Ninkovich did look good, but he should be kept in the reserve role. He should only be starting due to injuries. I have no problem with the Woods tender but, like Nink, should only be kept in a reserve role. AD is likely gone this offseason and, even if he isn't, we still need to draft at least one OLB on days one to two. If he's gone, we're looking at two of them being needed.

Bodden hasn't signed elsewhere yet has he? Then I'm not worried. NE has four young CBs on the roster, three of whom actually have some starting time, plus old Mr. Springs and his powered wheelchair, and Bill hired a veteran coach to come in and work with the youngsters and their young position coach -- sounds to me as if the expert with the inside knowledge doesn't see a "hole" as much as a young, inexperienced roster. CB doesn't rise to the level of my "hole" threshold.

With Bodden, we don't have a CB1. Bodden is a very, very solid CB, but is ideally a CB2 IMO. Without Bodden, we don't have a CB1 or a CB2. Perhaps Butler would be able to step up (I actually think he'll make the leap this year) but CB would still be a need. And no, Bodden hasn't signed elsewhere yet. But he hasn't signed here either and there are teams interested in him, one of them a team that has been our direct competition over the last decade or so.

One reportedly was a black hole during the season, addition by subtraction works for me. Further, NE has gone away from TE as a primary receiving weapon - I wasn't putting much emphasis on it before and for now I'm willing to wait and see if Bill makes it an OL assignment or what he's planning.

When the O-Line wasn't banged up, the TE's were running routes last season. When the O-Line got baned up, the TE's needed to stay back and block. See BritPat's thread for proof on this. However, we can both agree that if Olsen is signed, we're going back to using the TE's as receiving weapons. I would also fully expect a blocking TE to be signed. I wouldn't mind see Watson brought back either.

Not so much. I know Wright isn't everyone's final answer, but he's adequate, the draft is deep, Jarvis Green hasn't signed elsewhere yet, and it's day two.

I hope Jarvis does sign elsewhere. I don't even think he'd be good as a reserve anymore. He couldn't so much as sniff the backfield last season and teams were ripping off runs with alarming regularity off the right side of our D-Line last season. DE is definitely a hole.

Why shouldn't the team be expected to play at a high level with rookies?

Because a team having success with rookies filling in at that many spots happens few and far between. Look what happened last year with the team as young as it was. Now imagine filling even more of those spots with rookies playing in their first year in a Belichick system. Ouch. That wouldn't be pretty.
 
Part II

-- It's NOT obvious that NE made the wrong decision in their negotiations with either Boldin or Peppers.

It's pretty obvious, to me, that they made the right decision with Peppers. Equally as obvious that they made the wrong decision with Boldin. The only question now is whether or not they can redeem themselves. I, personally, do not want to see WR filled through the draft. We need someone that can come in there and immediately be another threat that the defense needs to acccount for next season to take the pressure off of Moss and Edelman (Welker when he gets healthy). Since BB has been here, only two rookies have seen immediate success in our offense as WR's: Branch and Edelman. And, even then, they weren't smash hits either.

-- It's NOT obvious that NE is in trouble in anyway for the upcoming season.

No. The draft is still on the horizon. However, we are certainly not any better right now (three days into free agency) than we were at the end of last season. Right now, we've retained Vince, TBC, and Neal. We still have re-sign Kevin Faulk. On top of that, Welker is in doubt to start next season and, even if he is, most likely will not be the same right off the bat. Where we are right now and what we know from last season, I will say that this present team is a 9-7 team at best. 8-8 at the worst. But, like I said, free agency isn't over and we do still have the draft. I just hope we don't go into the draft with as many needs as we currently have. There's absolutely no way that we can fill all of them through even a solid draft.

-- It's NOT obvious that NYJ and MIA have improved their teams significantly with the trade for Cromartie or the money Dansby just collected.

It's not obvious with the Jets but I think it's very obvious that Karlos Dansby is an improvement over Akin Ayodele. If you continue to disagree, then that's your right.

It was a poor word choice which did not help your argument and your use of it was no less ad hominem than anything I wrote.

Went back and reviewed the post and, to be honest, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I didn't once attack you in any way. I've only attacked your points in this thread.

Let's see, Peppers has $42.5M guaranteed on a contract which may reach $91M, about 47% guaranteed. Boldin's guaranteed money is about 36%, but Baltimore also had to use two draft picks. I'd say they are closer then you seem to think.

No, they really aren't. Peppers is making $42.5M guaranteed on a $91M contract and Boldin is making $10M guaranteed on a $28M contract. Boldin is making $7M per year while Peppers is making almost $16M per year. To put it simply, Boldin will be making about half of what Peppers is making. Their contracts are in no way similar.

NE certainly could have made that same offer, and doubtless many here would have looked at Boldin coming in and ignored the money - but Bill can't do that. So let's look at what he might have been thinking about given he does have a budget to manage (even if we don't know what it is this year):

-- Randy Moss $6.4M plus under the CBA his "cap" would have been a shade over $11M which accounts for $4.75M in previously paid guaranteed money.
-- Boldin $10M for 2010, plus two draft picks.

I know BB played it safe. My point is that I don't think he should have. Based on Moss' age and what he said to the media recently, he doesn't really expect to be here next year. On top of that, I can't see us ponying up the money that Moss is going to want. Therefore, it would have made sense to bring in a guy like Boldin now to play across from him and then take over for him in a year. Hopefully, in that year's time, Edelman, Tate, or whoever else we draft this year will be ready to step up to fill the hole that Boldin left by moving into Moss' spot. Of course, there is always the possibility that Moss signs a new contract with us, but I highly doubt it.

Feels like I'm in a deck chair on a luxury liner instead of drowning in despair, but the difference between a one year rental at $3M/2011 3rd and a one year rental at $10M/two 2010 picks is greater then the difference between a penny and a dollar. WR is a need, perhaps dire, but then again it's day two...

$10M in guaranteed money for a top WR prospect that would be able to come in and help immediately should never been looked at as being too expensive. That's where we are disagreeing. $10M in guaranteed money is actually pretty fair considering what most of us thought Boldin was going to command this offseason.

How do you know they improved? The money they spent? I don't remember Dansby's name coming up the last time NE met Arizona, I already know Crowder is no Joey Porter. Dansby is not a savior anymore than Peppers is likely to be a savior for Chiacago or Boldin for Baltimore, he's just another piece of the puzzle and his guarantee is about twice what Mayo's entire contract is - that's a lot of scrambling to fill a hole with a guy who doesn't give his team much more then Mayo gives NE.

I know they've improved because I've seen both Karlos Dansby play and I've seen Akin Ayodele play. Dansby is leaps and bounds better than Ayodele (who is really just a JAG). And no, Crowder is not Joey Porter. One plays ILB and the other plays OLB. :p And who said "savior"? Coming in and improving one side of the ball does not make you a savior. Luckily for us, the Dolphins still have a ton more holes to fill.

The Jest dumped an underachiever and traded for an underachiever. They reduced their overhead, but we won't know if they made their team better until we see him on the field. What we do know is they are foregoing drafting a CB in favor of hoping they can motivate an underachiever - how many times does that work out?

A lot of guys see a career renaissance with another team. Cromartie could be one of them, especially if the Jets get the quarterback as much as they did last year. And please, save the sack statistics. If you feel the need to go find those then I beg you to go to either NFL.com or ESPN.com and take a look at the shiney, new "QB hits" statistic. Yes, Cromartie is an underacheiver. But he's just a little bit better than what they had before. I hope it doesn't work out as much as the next guy though.

You threw a few drops of paint around in your original post too neighbor.

Did I create a beautiful mosaic?

You admit to being angry that NE hasn't made a bigger splash in Free Agency all the while appearing to ignore the concrete moves they did make.

No I didn't. I just don't happen to think the team needs a pat on the back for moves that it SHOULD have made when it came to retaining guys like Vince and TBC. In fact, those moves should have been made a couple of months ago.

You admit to being angry about Boldin not getting signed here - you are angry at your team and if none of what Bill & Co. have done in the past or in yesterday's meat market are going to give you pause... :confused2:

I'm not angry about it. More like disappointed. I don't see why $10M guaranteed and a $7M contract for a proven product should have kept the team away. However, like I said, all that matters is what they do after this. Will they make moves which make us all forget about this missed opportunity? I hope so.

I do humbly apologize for the remarks to which you took offense.

No biggie. And no need to be humble either.
 
How do you know if you are a real fan or not???
 
How do you know if you are a real fan or not???

There are those on the board who feel that they are qualified to judge another person's fandom over the Internet.

I had my Patriots fandom questioned by several persons on this board because I doubted that Manning's contract would lead the Colts to cap hell
 
Part I

You don't know Moss' thoughts at all, you know a few sentences that came out of Moss' mouth to the media

Sure I know Moss' thoughts. I know them because he opened up his mouth and gave them to me and anybody else that was listening to or reading at interview. He doesn't expect to be back after 2010. Why should we, the fans who know even less than he does (according to your assertion, correct?) expect him to be back next season, then?

$8M a year for 4 years is not a "stopgap". I do not want Boldin taking up $8M as our #1 for 2011 through 2013. We can (and will) do better than that.

Actually, it's $7M per year. And yes, he would have been a nice veteran presence to have on the field in the coming years with Moss again and guys like Tate and Edelman just getting their bearings under them. But, alas, it wasn't meant to be. As I said in my last two posts to Box, I just hope that they continue to try to make moves. It's rather obvious that BB wants to fill this position through free agency. If he didn't, we wouldn't have tried for Boldin, we wouldn't be bringing in Reed on Monday, and there wouldn't be rumors of interest in Antonio Bryant.

As for your "we can do better" assertion, I doubt it. Boldin was the very best available WR2 in free agency. I don't think we could have done better than him. What we CAN do is perhaps find someone that can generate a good amount of production for less money. Like I said before, I'm hoping for either T.O., Bryant, or Mason. I hope the rumors are true and we are interested in the second guy.

Did I ever claim what your stance was on Cassel?

??? You made a pretty clear assertion on it. You pretty much stated that most "objective posters thought that Cassel should have been cut before 2008". You have called me an "objective non-homer poster". You even do so in the next paragraph which I'm about to respond to. You can then see from there where I would have thought that you were lumping me into the "cut Cassel" crowd, which I then addressed. If you didn't want my thoughts on the matter, you shouldn't have thrown the red herring in there in the first place, bud.

No, but you are defending more than yourself with your post here, you are lumping in all the so-called "objective" non-homers on the board.

I hope you don't honestly believe that. I don't presume to speak for anybody but myself in this thread.

Also a requirement to being "objective" is understanding that the people in charge know infinitely more than you or I.

"Infinite" is a terrible choice of words here. They know more than you or I, but it isn't infinite. If that was the case, the front office wouldn't have made a bad move by giving up two draft picks for Derrick Burgess (what it would have taken to get Boldin). Remind me again of how awesome Burgess was for our defense in 2009...

So debate with the facts that we have but also understand there are tons of facts we don't have. Something that the vast majority of self-proclaimed objective posters refuse to understand.

I honestly don't know what the hell you're going on about here. We have plenty of facts on the Boldin trade. We have what he got in guaranteed money. We have the draft picks it took to move him (eerily similar to what we gave up for good ole' Derrick Burgess, impact player that he was in the pass rush). We have his contract numers ($7M per). We have plenty of "facts" about this trade.

Which is why it is a joke that you claim to be "objective". The fact that you can't even accept that they know a whole lot more than us about evaluating a player and valuating a player's worth not only in general but with regards to the specifics of their system and all the other factors that they have to take into account. They also know far more about a guy like Tate's chances of helping or not helping etc... (Tate is one example please don't harp on it).

Your definition of "objective" is pretty sorely lacking. Free thinking is a gift, emoney. I suggest that you go out and improve your capacity in that area. Being an "objective" fan and poster entails the ability to judge the front office's decisions on a decision by decision basis. For example, singing Vince was a good move (albeit one that should have been done before two days ago). Bringing back TBC was a good move. Hosting Josh Reed appears to be a good move. Jumping off the Peppers wagon was a good move. Shying away from the best WR2 because of two draft picks (picks which are completely unproven) and $10M in guaranteed money is a bad move, but one that can be corrected. As for Tate, you seem to talk about him like proponents of Chad Jackson used to talk about him. His speed looked promising last season, but there's not much more to be known other than that, not even from a FO perspective. They can "know" more about how he looks in practice. But we know just as much as the FO about how he looks in game situations.

I'm not arguing the Boldin non-move was 100% guaranteed to be the right decision. I'm arguing that it is NOT homerish or outlandish to give the proven FO that made that decision the benefit of the doubt. Just because on the surface YOU don't like the move, doesn't mean it is factually a bad move. This is the major point that some of you continuously fail to grasp.

That's a pretty funny paragraph. You admit to not being completely convinced that the non-move was the right decision by the front office, but then simultaneously say that you have faith that the FO made the right move. So which one is it?

What authority? What are you talking about?

If it wasn't obvious that you've never had critical thinking experience before, it is now. An appeal to authority is a critical thinking fallacy. The fallacy looks something like this: "Well they are the front office and they decided not to go with a good WR2 so therefore that WR2 was not worth it". I'm basically saying that the Boldin non-move was a good one just because the front office made it is not a very strong argument.

You have 0 credentials to be able to tell me definitively what mistakes they have made and why they were mistakes.

I have a few credentials. Those are my eyeballs and history. My eyeballs are the ones that told me that giving up two draft picks to the Raiders for Derrick Burgess was not a good move last offseason. My eyeballs saw that we could have used those two picks on Anquan Boldin, who is much more of a proven product at his position than Derrick Burgess was at his. History tells me that rookie WR's never really make an impact in our offense under Bill Belichick. The two guys that have had better seasons in their rookie years as WR's in this system have been Deion Branch and Julian Edelman. Here are their stats:

Branch (2002) - 43 rec. 489 yards 2 TD's
Edelman (2009) - 37 rec. 359 yards 1 TD

Sorry, but your arrogance is mind boggling. You can't accept that you do NOT have more than a sprinkling of the facts and that is where the major problem lies. You seem to believe that everything on the surface is what it is.

As I said before, ad hominem is always good. It lets me know that I'm making solid points. By the way, your argument would stronger if you actually attacked my points with a little more than "the FO knows more than you!" and attacked me less.
 
Part II

What if behind the scenes Patriots scouts had GOOD reason to believe that Boldin wouldn't be the same player in a couple of years. Or had GOOD reason to believe their risk evaluation for the next 4 years? Or a hole host of other things that we'll never so much as hear about. Sure it may LOOK like a bit of a miss right now, but the point is you are trying to argue definitively that you are right and the front office is wrong. Sorry but that's the same type of hubris that the media accuses BB of.

So basically, you accuse me of arguing without having any of the facts and then turn around and take a wild leap of logic yourself? Well played. :bricks:

Allow me to use your own argument against you: you have zero way of knowing that the NE scouts saw something that turned them off. I should say, though, that I don't think that is the case. If it were, it would have probably turned Baltimore off as well. Since that didn't happen, I would have to think that there isn't that type of concern there. According to Mort, it was all about the money. If that is the reason for it, then it's a shoddy reason, to say the least. The money was actually very good considering what most of us thought Boldin was going to command prior to free agency beginning.

So you lack the ability to be patient and let things play out and rather just kvetch about it in the moment? I for on am extremely confident that they will upgrade the receiving corps by the time the first game is played

So basically, you haven't been reading anything that I've been saying. I don't find that to be far fetched, personally. It all makes sense now. I sincerely hope they upgrade the receiving corps by next season. As of right now, we're looking at the possibility of a 9-7 or an 8-8 team next season without key upgrades. And I've said time and time again in this thread that I wish to judge each move by itself and not judge all moves the same way. That is the reason why I can judge the Boldin move as a bad one and say at the same time that the team can redeem themselves by brining in a guy like Bryant.

As for this comment, it is mostly ridiculous bull**** and a big lie:

No one ever said that or insinuated that. Branch screwed the team that year and put them in a terrible position. At the same time, you do NOT decline a first round pick for a good but not great WR that is holding out. EVER.... did I mention EVER.

I highly suggest you take some time to peruse some of the older threads in this forum. There were plenty of posters that put trust in the front office when it came to Doug Gabriel and Reche Caldwell coming in and replacing Branch's production. PLENTY. I should know, as I was one of those people. As for your comment about Branch screwing the team, I don't think I could disagree with that.

Not to mention in the 2006 playoffs we scored:

37, 24 and 34 points.

Well, first of all, the reason for our offensive production in those playoffs was part in due to Brady having what, in my opinion, was his finest season as a QB. Secondly, it was due to Jabar Gaffney playing OUT OF HIS MIND in that period of time. The same Jabar Gaffney who took Stallworth's place as our third threat to take the defense's attention off of primarily Welker and Moss in 2007. Another factor had to do with the defenses we played: the Jets (20th), Chargers (10th), and Colts (21st). Now, before you harp on how well we played against the Chargers, I should remind you of how many picks Brady threw in that game trying to force the ball to receivers who weren't breaking away from their men effectively.
 
There are those on the board who feel that they are qualified to judge another person's fandom over the Internet.

I had my Patriots fandom questioned by several persons on this board because I doubted that Manning's contract would lead the Colts to cap hell

LMAO. Seriously? Why doesn't that suprise me?
 
??? You made a pretty clear assertion on it. You pretty much stated that most "objective posters thought that Cassel should have been cut before 2008". You have called me an "objective non-homer poster". You even do so in the next paragraph which I'm about to respond to. You can then see from there where I would have thought that you were lumping me into the "cut Cassel" crowd, which I then addressed. If you didn't want my thoughts on the matter, you shouldn't have thrown the red herring in there in the first place, bud.

You were never called out specifically, you responded to a statement about a general group of people. Most != All, and therefore you made an improper logical jump. Let's leave it at that, or you can go ahead and take the last word on this.

"Infinite" is a terrible choice of words here. They know more than you or I, but it isn't infinite. If that was the case, the front office wouldn't have made a bad move by giving up two draft picks for Derrick Burgess (what it would have taken to get Boldin). Remind me again of how awesome Burgess was for our defense in 2009...

Way to avoid the point and harp on the word choice, definitely makes the discussion fun. PS: Knowing infinitely more does not mean being perfect, it's a figure of speech.

You think the Burgess move was bad, so I'm assuming you hated it the day it was made and will continue to hate it even if Burgess starts performing after learning the system more. Or are you basing your judgement of a move based on end-result which can't be known at the time of said decision?

I honestly don't know what the hell you're going on about here. We have plenty of facts on the Boldin trade. We have what he got in guaranteed money. We have the draft picks it took to move him (eerily similar to what we gave up for good ole' Derrick Burgess, impact player that he was in the pass rush). We have his contract numers ($7M per). We have plenty of "facts" about this trade.

I don't expect you to know what I am talking about because as a determined objective poster you are unwilling to concede the fact or unable to recognize the fact that we do NOT know everything about any situation. We don't have the information of BB's scouting department on Boldin, Tate, the draft, other WR, Welker etc... That's just the beginning. We also don't have any facts regarding the hard budget, the percentage allotment for each position, etc... Maybe part of their budget dictates they not have $20M locked up in 2 receivers.

You not understanding that we don't have all the facts is the basis for all of the "objective" issues. You call others homers for recognizing that there is a lot more than meets the eye that goes into building an entire roster and there are many factors that go into each decision not just isolated money for that specific case.

Not to mention, spacecrime had a very good analogy comparing the philosophy to blackjack strategy.

Your definition of "objective" is pretty sorely lacking. Free thinking is a gift, emoney. I suggest that you go out and improve your capacity in that area.

Yeah I lack the ability to think freely. Yet I'm the one that is willing to incorporate ALL facts, while you want to harp on only the facts you want to make your case with. So tell me again how you know just as much as the FO.

Being an "objective" fan and poster entails the ability to judge the front office's decisions on a decision by decision basis. For example, singing Vince was a good move (albeit one that should have been done before two days ago). Bringing back TBC was a good move. Hosting Josh Reed appears to be a good move. Jumping off the Peppers wagon was a good move. Shying away from the best WR2 because of two draft picks (picks which are completely unproven) and $10M in guaranteed money is a bad move, but one that can be corrected. As for Tate, you seem to talk about him like proponents of Chad Jackson used to talk about him. His speed looked promising last season, but there's not much more to be known other than that, not even from a FO perspective. They can "know" more about how he looks in practice. But we know just as much as the FO about how he looks in game situations.

Being objective also REQUIRES you to acknowledge there are other factors that may alter whether a decision is "right" or not. These factors will never be known and those that you accuse of being a "homer" are simply understanding of that fact.

For example, the Hobbs trade does not make sense to me given the limited facts I have. At the same time I am perfectly willing to concede that the FO has more facts that MIGHT make the decision make more sense.

A poster like you on the other hand will DEMAND that it's a fact the decision was bad. It is when you get into that arrogant tone and dismissing all other possibilities as homerish that you destroy all claims of being objective.

That's a pretty funny paragraph. You admit to not being completely convinced that the non-move was the right decision by the front office, but then simultaneously say that you have faith that the FO made the right move. So which one is it?

Maybe I've just been giving you way too much credit this whole time. I concede that there may be OTHER factors that I will never know that makes the decision right or even completely plausible. It's really not hard to understand and in fact is the very definition of "benefit of the doubt". In the absence of ALL the facts, a proven FO deserves the benefit of the doubt. That does NOT mean they were absolutely correct. I don't understand why I have to waste so many words explaining this.


If it wasn't obvious that you've never had critical thinking experience before, it is now. An appeal to authority is a critical thinking fallacy. The fallacy looks something like this: "Well they are the front office and they decided not to go with a good WR2 so therefore that WR2 was not worth it". I'm basically saying that the Boldin non-move was a good one just because the front office made it is not a very strong argument.

I never made that argument, you either misread my posts or don't know what the term benefit of the doubt means.


I have a few credentials. Those are my eyeballs and history. My eyeballs are the ones that told me that giving up two draft picks to the Raiders for Derrick Burgess was not a good move last offseason. My eyeballs saw that we could have used those two picks on Anquan Boldin, who is much more of a proven product at his position than Derrick Burgess was at his. History tells me that rookie WR's never really make an impact in our offense under Bill Belichick. The two guys that have had better seasons in their rookie years as WR's in this system have been Deion Branch and Julian Edelman. Here are their stats:

Branch (2002) - 43 rec. 489 yards 2 TD's
Edelman (2009) - 37 rec. 359 yards 1 TD

Apparently you do not know what a credential is. Also this "argument" assumes that Boldin was the only (and best) way to improve the WR core. Plus if you want to use history as proof, I offer you the history of the Patriots FO.


As I said before, ad hominem is always good. It lets me know that I'm making solid points. By the way, your argument would stronger if you actually attacked my points with a little more than "the FO knows more than you!" and attacked me less.

You really should learn what ad hominem actually means. You may also want to re-read your responses before you accuse others of "attacks".
 
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