Emperor Bill

[PatsFanSince74]

...
I would liek to know one other time in NFL history when one man has assumed so many responsibilities for one organization with a good outcome.

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To those of you with rose colored glasses..I would like to see the positive spin on this.

Vince Lombardi? Tom Landry didn't have an OC for most of his coaching career. Just to name two pretty good coaches.

Why are we so hung up on titles all of a sudden? The titles of Offensive Coordinator and Defensive Coordinator are relatively recent innovations.

It seems to me that Belichick is trying to flatten his organization and work directly with both sides of the ball. What's important is that people's "roles" are clearly defined, not what their "title" is.

 

[RayClay]

We never have, and never will have a coordinator who develops game plans or calls play that conflict with BBs philosophy. Coordinators here CARRY OUT philosophy they do not determine philosophy.

When Charlie Weis became our coordinator, he was experienced in that role as well as a number of other offensive coaching jobs in the NFL. Belichick had one years experience coaching offense, in 1977.

Why would you assume he dictated the offense to Weis to implement?

Seems to me, Weis developed our offense and we are handing down a more and more diluted version to trainees.

I haven't worked with the coaching staff, and i don't believe you have, but I would put my money on Weis having the ability to successfully design, manage and implement an NFL offense.

 

[RayClay]

Vince Lombardi? Tom Landry didn't have an OC for most of his coaching career. Just to name two pretty good coaches.

Why are we so hung up on titles all of a sudden? The titles of Offensive Coordinator and Defensive Coordinator are relatively recent innovations.

It seems to me that Belichick is trying to flatten his organization and work directly with both sides of the ball. What's important is that people's "roles" are clearly defined, not what their "title" is.

Dan Reeves was an offensive coordinator for Landry. I'm not sure if there were others, but when you have coaching talent like him and Mike Ditka John Mackovic Gene Stallings and Raymond Berry, I think you've got some NFL offensive minds to tap.

You going to put O'Brien in that group? I don't think so.

Yeah, it's not what their title is, it's what their talent is.

If they're just parrots, where's the creativity coming from?

 

[scout]

Dan Reeves was an offensive coordinator for Landry. I'm not sure if there were others, but when you have coaching talent like him and Mike Ditka John Mackovic Gene Stallings and Raymond Berry, I think you've got some NFL offensive minds to tap.

You going to put O'Brien in that group? I don't think so.

Yeah, it's not what their title is, it's what their talent is.

If they're just parrots, where's the creativity coming from?

How do you know? You just took a look at history and proclaimed O'Brien will never be in that group..........Two years ago, you could say the same thing about Josh McDaniels, and we still don't know, but you could say there's a solid chance.

 

[Rob0729]

When Charlie Weis became our coordinator, he was experienced in that role as well as a number of other offensive coaching jobs in the NFL. Belichick had one years experience coaching offense, in 1977.

Why would you assume he dictated the offense to Weis to implement?

Seems to me, Weis developed our offense and we are handing down a more and more diluted version to trainees.

I haven't worked with the coaching staff, and i don't believe you have, but I would put my money on Weis having the ability to successfully design, manage and implement an NFL offense.

Weis implemented the same offense that Belichick ran in Cleveland which was the same offense that Parcells ran with the Jets. Weis didn't develop the Pats offense. Ray Perkins and Ron Ehrhart developed the offense. Weis did throw some of his own aspects into it, but since then so has Belichick and McDaniels. The 2007 offense had as much or more influence from Urban Meyers as it did Charlie Weis.

And let's not forget that Weis' career before Brady was less than stellar. The reason why Weis and Parcells had such a bad falling out was because Parcells stripped Weis of his play calling duties in 1999. In 2000, he insisted on running an offense that clearly exploited Bledsoe's weaknesses and played to very few of his strengths. He did have some success with Testeverde, but Testerde's best year was still in Baltimore.

As for the duleted version of the Pats offense? You means when it got duleted to be superior under McDaniels? So are you saying Weis needed to dillute his offense to improve it. I know for some crazy reason people on this board think McDaniels sucked because he coached the most prolific offense in NFL history and then still had a top offense the following year with a QB who hadn't started since high school (who also played this past season without McDaniels as if he was a QB who hadn't started since high school), but you can make the argument McDaniels improved the Weis offense.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm pretty sure that Al Davis had no coordinators either when he was the coach of the Raiders.

 

[RayClay]

How do you know? You just took a look at history and proclaimed O'Brien will never be in that group..........Two years ago, you could say the same thing about Josh McDaniels, and we still don't know, but you could say there's a solid chance.

I don't know. Do you think we'll look back on our current crop of coaches and say wow, who can believe all that talent on the same staff?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't know. Do you think we'll look back on our current crop of coaches and say wow, who can believe all that talent on the same staff?

Yep, but then I'm just an incurable optimist. :singing:

 

[RayClay]

Weis implemented the same offense that Belichick ran in Cleveland which was the same offense that Parcells ran with the Jets. Weis didn't develop the Pats offense. Ray Perkins and Ron Ehrhart developed the offense. Weis did throw some of his own aspects into it, but since then so has Belichick and McDaniels. The 2007 offense had as much or more influence from Urban Meyers as it did Charlie Weis.

And let's not forget that Weis' career before Brady was less than stellar. The reason why Weis and Parcells had such a bad falling out was because Parcells stripped Weis of his play calling duties in 1999. In 2000, he insisted on running an offense that clearly exploited Bledsoe's weaknesses and played to very few of his strengths. He did have some success with Testeverde, but Testerde's best year was still in Baltimore.

As for the duleted version of the Pats offense? You means when it got duleted to be superior under McDaniels? So are you saying Weis needed to dillute his offense to improve it. I know for some crazy reason people on this board think McDaniels sucked because he coached the most prolific offense in NFL history and then still had a top offense the following year with a QB who hadn't started since high school (who also played this past season without McDaniels as if he was a QB who hadn't started since high school), but you can make the argument McDaniels improved the Weis offense.

McDaniels had Moss, Gaffney, Stallworth, Welker and a mature Faulk in the passing game.

My opinion is that 40 point wins are great, but the test of an offensive coordinator is making adjustments when defenses take away what you do best.

You're going to compile a ton of yards and victory margins, I'm going to say making the adjustments to win the last game is all that matters. Weis teams adjusted (with far less talent).

 

[RayClay]

Yep, but then I'm just an incurable optimist. :singing:

I'm really fine with the defensive adjustment, Brown is a plus. I'm sorry for the sacrilege, but i have no reson to assume BB is as good on offense as defense and I haven't seen good adjustments in the second half or late season in a longtime.

Maybe I'm missing them.

To be thankful, we have a coach and front office that plans ahead and puts a competitive team on the field each year. I just think we're so close, probably with better athleticism, to getting back the efficient, smart, balanced, teams we had that it's even more frustrating than if we sucked.

The last team i felt got the most out of it's talent was 2005 and that team was pretty much a Mash unit.

 

[RayClay]

Oh ****, I posted in the Emperor thread. Didn't even realize.

 

[scout]

I don't know. Do you think we'll look back on our current crop of coaches and say wow, who can believe all that talent on the same staff?

I'm just saying. Back then, do you think the people of Dallas thought they had three coaches who would all coach teams in the Superbowl (tho, only one winner). It's possible the Patriots have three future Superbowl coaches on this team. At some point, BB's tree will blossom.

 

[Rob0729]

McDaniels had Moss, Gaffney, Stallworth, Welker and a mature Faulk in the passing game.

My opinion is that 40 point wins are great, but the test of an offensive coordinator is making adjustments when defenses take away what you do best.

You're going to compile a ton of yards and victory margins, I'm going to say making the adjustments to win the last game is all that matters. Weis teams adjusted (with far less talent).

That is the falicy of Weis. In 2003, the offense didn't make adjustments other than getting three and outs so the defense could make turnovers. Look at some of the wins. The defense won games like vs. Dallas (12-0) or the Miami snow fireworks game (Bruschi scored the only TD of the game again in a 12-0 win). Weis' brilliant call of a FB draw on third and long cost the Pats the chance to win vs. Washington that year. Weis became a genius when he had talent.

In 2004, Weis has arguably the best QB and RB in the league. You can argue the talent of the 2004 offense was as good or better than the talent of 2007. No he didn't have Moss, but he had Dillon who rushed more per game played than any RB that year. He had Branch, Givens, Faulk, Graham, and Patten as receivers. Talent-wise, I will put the 2004 offense up against the 2007 offense. No one ever dismisses Weis' year because he had elite talent eventhough the year before the offense was the worst offense of the Brady era.

I do agree that all McDaniels did was get the offense to score a lot of points and get a lot of yards which gave the Pats a great margin of victory. Big deal! Tell me how many games are you going to win by scoring more points than the other team? Maybe one or two a season.

Besides, McDaniels adjustments and strategies were severely underrated by the fans because apparently his biggest crime was being a great OC not named Charlie Weis. Look at the Jacksonville playoff game where Brady broke a playoff record because McDaniels totally changed the offense because the Jags tried to take away what the Pats did best that season. Or the year before against Minnesota when he changed everything because of the Vikes defense.

Seriously, I don't know why people don't want to give McDaniels his due. The guy was an excellent OC who coached the best offense of all time and then followed it up by defying the odds and fielded the 5th ranked offense (8th in points scored) without Brady and with a QB who made his first start since high school (BTW, Cassel was on the 28th ranked offense this year). We have seen this year that Moss, Welker, and Brady can't make this a great consistent offense who could close games without McDaniels. And this was before Brady's injuries.

 

[DaBruinz]

When Charlie Weis became our coordinator, he was experienced in that role as well as a number of other offensive coaching jobs in the NFL. Belichick had one years experience coaching offense, in 1977.

Why would you assume he dictated the offense to Weis to implement?

Seems to me, Weis developed our offense and we are handing down a more and more diluted version to trainees.

I haven't worked with the coaching staff, and i don't believe you have, but I would put my money on Weis having the ability to successfully design, manage and implement an NFL offense.

RayClay - There was an article on ESPN about Bill Belichick and how the offense that has been used from Weis to now was one that is of BB's design and that Weis, McDaniels, etc, just implemented it with the personnel.

Weis does have the ability, but he's a better strategist than Tactician. Just as McDaniels is also a better strategist than tactician. Just not to the same levels as Weis..

 

[Jangles]

Tell me how many games are you going to win by scoring more points than the other team? Maybe one or two a season.

Is this a joke

 

[IcyPatriot]

Tell me how many games are you going to win by scoring more points than the other team? Maybe one or two a season.

When you score more points than the other team you win all of those.

 

[RayClay]

That is the falicy of Weis. In 2003, the offense didn't make adjustments other than getting three and outs so the defense could make turnovers. Look at some of the wins. The defense won games like vs. Dallas (12-0) or the Miami snow fireworks game (Bruschi scored the only TD of the game again in a 12-0 win). Weis' brilliant call of a FB draw on third and long cost the Pats the chance to win vs. Washington that year. Weis became a genius when he had talent.

In 2004, Weis has arguably the best QB and RB in the league. You can argue the talent of the 2004 offense was as good or better than the talent of 2007. No he didn't have Moss, but he had Dillon who rushed more per game played than any RB that year. He had Branch, Givens, Faulk, Graham, and Patten as receivers. Talent-wise, I will put the 2004 offense up against the 2007 offense. No one ever dismisses Weis' year because he had elite talent eventhough the year before the offense was the worst offense of the Brady era.

I do agree that all McDaniels did was get the offense to score a lot of points and get a lot of yards which gave the Pats a great margin of victory. Big deal! Tell me how many games are you going to win by scoring more points than the other team? Maybe one or two a season.

Besides, McDaniels adjustments and strategies were severely underrated by the fans because apparently his biggest crime was being a great OC not named Charlie Weis. Look at the Jacksonville playoff game where Brady broke a playoff record because McDaniels totally changed the offense because the Jags tried to take away what the Pats did best that season. Or the year before against Minnesota when he changed everything because of the Vikes defense.

Seriously, I don't know why people don't want to give McDaniels his due. The guy was an excellent OC who coached the best offense of all time and then followed it up by defying the odds and fielded the 5th ranked offense (8th in points scored) without Brady and with a QB who made his first start since high school (BTW, Cassel was on the 28th ranked offense this year). We have seen this year that Moss, Welker, and Brady can't make this a great consistent offense who could close games without McDaniels. And this was before Brady's injuries.

Nevertheless, a one point win is as good as a 50 point one. We had two romps mid season this year. The stats look great. But my eyes tell me the offense that went into Baltimore was not going to cut it. Average stats? Just fine.

 

[RayClay]

RayClay - There was an article on ESPN about Bill Belichick and how the offense that has been used from Weis to now was one that is of BB's design and that Weis, McDaniels, etc, just implemented it with the personnel.

Weis does have the ability, but he's a better strategist than Tactician. Just as McDaniels is also a better strategist than tactician. Just not to the same levels as Weis..

I doubt it.

Seriously, people write articles and i don't, so don't believe my feeling.

However, BB and Weis were contemporaries with tons of coaching experience. Weis had coached every skill position on offense and had been an offensive coordinator. BB coached defense, special teams every year he wasn't HC or co HC except one year, 1977 in Detroit.

So ESPN says, with no defensive coordinator, BB ran the defense and also told his life long offensive specialist how to run an offense and Weis merely carried out orders. I don't believe it.

Sorry, I don't write for ESPN, all I have is logic and my presumption.

 

[Patspsycho]

Weis does have the ability, but he's a better strategist than Tactician. Just as McDaniels is also a better strategist than tactician. Just not to the same levels as Weis..

Everyone who has half a brain is a great strategist, but to be a great tactician requires serious balls. Great tacticians execute good strategy in the heat of the battle without stalling or choking.

We have the benefit of having a HC who has the latitude to be a great tactician because he doesn't have the hands on owner breathing down his neck problem that so many of the coaches in the league have.

I don't watch college football so I don't know how much of a tactician Weiss turned out to be at ND- the next season or two will tell if McDaniels has the capability to be a tactician.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

...all I have is logic and my presumption.

I've seen your "logic"...so I agree you have a "lot" of presumption.