Decade of players "drafted" under BB and Pioli

[wilfork is beastin']

It wasn't like Brady was just grabbed up because no one wanted him. the Pats' QB coach raved about him and wanted the team to draft him when they got the chance. I remember reading somewhere that the Chargers considered taking him around where we did and I think the Bills had looked at him as well.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Maroney is getting 750 yards per season on a team that is pass oriented and has multiple RBs. How anyone can call that a "bust" is beyond me.

You throw away Wilhite when he has played 57% of the snaps, 10th most on defense and more than any other CB except Bodden.

Matthew Slater is a significant special teams contributor, that is NOT meaningless nor "bust".

David Thomas was traded.

2 draft picks were used to get Welker and Moss.

And you continue to ignore the very good draft of last year.

Wow, you have a good imagination and also a possible problem with reading comprehension.

1. I did not call Maroney a bust, I called him a disappointment, there is a difference.

2. Wilhite ended the year behind Springs, Bodden and maybe even Butler.

3. Slater was not mentioned so I don't know where you get where I called him a bust.

4. David Thomas also was not mentioned because he is no longer on the team.

5. Actually Welker was traded for two picks, Moss was traded for one that would equal three picks.

6. See the part when I said it appears that they turned things around in 09. I don't recall ever saying anything bad about the 09 class so maybe you could enlighten me.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

Don't see how you could call Kaczur a bust, he was a 3rd rounder and has started 62 games for. He was a starter on the 18-1 team as well definitely not a bust.

 

[Brady_12]

Two questions:

3. Slater was not mentioned so I don't know where you get where I called him a bust.

Omitting him would certainly suggest that you don't think much of the pick, wouldn't it?

5. Actually Welker was traded for two picks, Moss was traded for one that would equal three picks.

Are you suggesting that the Patriots got the short end of these deals?

 

[Deus Irae]

...they just need a couple of impact players.

This is really the important part to me, because I think this separates the elite from the 2nd tier. It's not the lack of Eric Alexanders among the draft picks that has been the problem, and it's not the lack of Watson/Maroney types that teams need. The problem's been the lack of Seymour/Wilfork/Brady types.

 

[Brady_12]

This is really the important part to me, because I think this separates the elite from the 2nd tier. It's not the lack of Eric Alexanders among the draft picks that has been the problem, and it's not the lack of Watson/Maroney types that teams need. The problem's been the lack of Seymour/Wilfork/Brady types.

Agreed. I think I'd Mayo to the "lack of" list even though he had a down year with the knee.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Two questions:

Omitting him would certainly suggest that you don't think much of the pick, wouldn't it?

Are you suggesting that the Patriots got the short end of these deals?

Honestly, drafting a player who has no position on offense or defense, not only that but trading an additional pick to move up to get him didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. He wasn't even a starter in college. If he turned out to be another Josh Cribbs than that would be great-he hasn't had that kind of impact, what he does well is kick coverage. Is that worth mutiple draft picks, I'm not sure. What I'm sure of is I didn't call him a bust, which is what I was responding to.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Where did you get from? They were both great trades.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

This is really the important part to me, because I think this separates the elite from the 2nd tier. It's not the lack of Eric Alexanders among the draft picks that has been the problem, and it's not the lack of Watson/Maroney types that teams need. The problem's been the lack of Seymour/Wilfork/Brady types.

I completely agree.

 

[Brady_12]

Honestly, drafting a player who has no position on offense or defense, not only that but trading an additional pick to move up to get him didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. He wasn't even a starter in college. If he turned out to be another Josh Cribbs than that would be great-he hasn't had that kind of impact, what he does well is kick coverage. Is that worth mutiple draft picks, I'm not sure. What I'm sure of is I didn't call him a bust, which is what I was responding to.

I'm not suggesting that at all. Where did you get from? They were both great trades.

I'm not sure either, the Pats must have seen something but they have mixed results when it comes to drafting receivers.

As for the the Moss/Welker question, I was responding to the trade of 2 picks vs. 3 argument and wondering if you thought they'd given up too much...

 

[emoney_33]

Wow, you have a good imagination and also a possible problem with reading comprehension.

1. I did not call Maroney a bust, I called him a disappointment, there is a difference.

"disappointment" is subjective and requires your subjective expectations of him. Fact is once again he is 750 yards per season, starting RB in a committee of a pass-first team. You have no ground here.

2. Wilhite ended the year behind Springs, Bodden and maybe even Butler.

Fact of the matter is once again Wilhite played more snaps on the year than both Springs and Bodden. Who played the first snap at LCB at the end of the year is pretty meaningless to the discussion.

4. David Thomas also was not mentioned because he is no longer on the team.

Neither is Seymour would you discount him from the 2001 draft?

5. Actually Welker was traded for two picks, Moss was traded for one that would equal three picks.

touche, thanks for the help.

6. See the part when I said it appears that they turned things around in 09. I don't recall ever saying anything bad about the 09 class so maybe you could enlighten me.

"turned things around"? So you handpick 3 years that you think seem like "down" years, even though they weren't that bad and then claim it as turning it around in 2009?

Anyway, forget 2009, nitpick any years you want. This team has had good to great drafts consistently. Some years better than others, but usually in the top 5 each draft.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

"disappointment" is subjective and requires your subjective expectations of him. Fact is once again he is 750 yards per season, starting RB in a committee of a pass-first team. You have no ground here.



Fact of the matter is once again Wilhite played more snaps on the year than both Springs and Bodden. Who played the first snap at LCB at the end of the year is pretty meaningless to the discussion.



Neither is Seymour would you discount him from the 2001 draft?



touche, thanks for the help.



"turned things around"? So you handpick 3 years that you think seem like "down" years, even though they weren't that bad and then claim it as turning it around in 2009?

Anyway, forget 2009, nitpick any years you want. This team has had good to great drafts consistently. Some years better than others, but usually in the top 5 each draft.

Maroney was 1st round pick who has yet to rush for 1000 yards in a season.
He was 26th in the league in rushing this past year while being unable to wrestle the starting job from three RBs all over the age of 32. In the playoffs he had 1 carry for 2 yards and his most memorable play was whiffing on blocking Ray Lewis as he sacked Brady. Maybe I'm not being subjective enough but I consider him a disappointment. Wilhite started most of the year but the defense improved when he was replaced as a starter. Thomas was drafted in the third round, played sparingly and was traded for a 7th. Not sure what your point is with him but he won't help the Pats in 2010.

 

[emoney_33]

Maroney was 1st round pick who has yet to rush for 1000 yards in a season.

Maroney is not asked to rush for 1000 yards, hence not getting 20+ carries a game. Maroney has done what has been asked of him, with a career 4.2 YPC, when called upon he usually gets the job done.

He was 26th in the league in rushing this past year while being unable to wrestle the starting job from three RBs all over the age of 32.

This is absurd, he has been the starting RB the entire season, but this team does NOT rely on any one back. They split the carries, usually per drive, sometimes per quarter. The idea is that a few RBs with less stress is better than putting all of your running success into 1 back (a position most susceptible to injury).

In the playoffs he had 1 carry for 2 yards and his most memorable play was whiffing on blocking Ray Lewis as he sacked Brady.

Maybe you should pay attention a little more. The game was 24-0 after the 1st quarter that saw a fumble and 2 INT early in the drives. The situation meant we could not run the ball as we wanted to. You may want to check out what he did in the 2007 playoffs though. He also did the right thing with Lewis as he steered him to Brady's left (Brady is a righty). Brady misread, misjudged or otherwise made the wrong decision to roll left right into Lewis. I suggest you watch the games and have the actual facts before stepping into a debate.

Maybe I'm not being subjective enough but I consider him a disappointment.

You mean you are not being OBJECTIVE enough, which you clearly aren't.

Wilhite started most of the year but the defense improved when he was replaced as a starter.

Wow, where do you get this stuff? The defense improved when James Sanders experience was re-inserted and the communication stepped up in the secondary. Wilhite played more snaps on the year than every CB except Bodden. Also let's assume he never started a game, a 3rd CB is still a very useful thing and is a positive from the draft. Playing behind solid corners in Bodden and Springs is somehow a knock on Wilhite and the draft? No. Even so, again 57% of snaps, only Bodden had more.

Thomas was drafted in the third round, played sparingly and was traded for a 7th. Not sure what your point is with him but he won't help the Pats in 2010.

This is/was never about how does the draft help in 2010. I agree the David Thomas point was stupid, I'll withdraw it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maroney was 1st round pick who has yet to rush for 1000 yards in a season.
He was 26th in the league in rushing this past year while being unable to wrestle the starting job from three RBs all over the age of 32. In the playoffs he had 1 carry for 2 yards and his most memorable play was whiffing on blocking Ray Lewis as he sacked Brady. Maybe I'm not being subjective enough but I consider him a disappointment. Wilhite started most of the year but the defense improved when he was replaced as a starter. Thomas was drafted in the third round, played sparingly and was traded for a 7th. Not sure what your point is with him but he won't help the Pats in 2010.

Maroney was the starting RB.

 

[Synovia]

Any metric that includes two 4+ year starters as Busts is f*ing ridiculous.

 

[Synovia]

Simply not true.

Just because you have your eye on someone and think they can succeed doesn't mean you will draft him until you have to. They could have liked Givens and thought no one else would draft him so they could sit on him and draft other players that were on other teams' radars first. Same for Brady.

If the patriots thought there was a good chance Brady was a Franchise QB, they would have drafted him earlier. You don't pass up on a Franchise QB for a what essentially amounts to a 3rd round pick. There definitely was some luck there.

I've heard a couple of GMs say theres not a whole lot of difference between the 4th to 7th rounds. If they really thought Brady had a good chance, they would have taken him earlier. There was some good evaluation there, and a healthy dosing of luck.

 

[emoney_33]

If the patriots thought there was a good chance Brady was a Franchise QB, they would have drafted him earlier. You don't pass up on a Franchise QB for a what essentially amounts to a 3rd round pick. There definitely was some luck there.

I've heard a couple of GMs say theres not a whole lot of difference between the 4th to 7th rounds. If they really thought Brady had a good chance, they would have taken him earlier. There was some good evaluation there, and a healthy dosing of luck.

I understand the main point, but if they didn't have Bledsoe they would have taken him earlier. Pioli said as much. Obviously no one thought it was likely that Brady would morph into the GOAT at the time, and that is a credit to his incredible work ethic and dedication.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Maroney is not asked to rush for 1000 yards, hence not getting 20+ carries a game. Maroney has done what has been asked of him, with a career 4.2 YPC, when called upon he usually gets the job done.



This is absurd, he has been the starting RB the entire season, but this team does NOT rely on any one back. They split the carries, usually per drive, sometimes per quarter. The idea is that a few RBs with less stress is better than putting all of your running success into 1 back (a position most susceptible to injury).



Maybe you should pay attention a little more. The game was 24-0 after the 1st quarter that saw a fumble and 2 INT early in the drives. The situation meant we could not run the ball as we wanted to. You may want to check out what he did in the 2007 playoffs though. He also did the right thing with Lewis as he steered him to Brady's left (Brady is a righty). Brady misread, misjudged or otherwise made the wrong decision to roll left right into Lewis. I suggest you watch the games and have the actual facts before stepping into a debate.



You mean you are not being OBJECTIVE enough, which you clearly aren't.



Wow, where do you get this stuff? The defense improved when James Sanders experience was re-inserted and the communication stepped up in the secondary. Wilhite played more snaps on the year than every CB except Bodden. Also let's assume he never started a game, a 3rd CB is still a very useful thing and is a positive from the draft. Playing behind solid corners in Bodden and Springs is somehow a knock on Wilhite and the draft? No. Even so, again 57% of snaps, only Bodden had more.



This is/was never about how does the draft help in 2010. I agree the David Thomas point was stupid, I'll withdraw it.

The description of Maroney as a disappointment is my opinion of him. If a running back drafted in the first round getting 750 yards is your idea of a successful pick than thats setting the bar pretty low. I called Maroney a part time starter which he is and Whilite a nickel back which is what he ended the season as. Did he (Maroney) or did he not get benched towards the end of the year?

 

[Sicilian]

The description of Maroney as a disappointment is my opinion of him. If a running back drafted in the first round getting 750 yards is your idea of a successful pick than thats setting the bar pretty low. I called Maroney a part time starter which he is and Whilite a nickel back which is what he ended the season as. Did he (Maroney) or did he not get benched towards the end of the year?

What's wrong with getting a nickelback in the 4th round?

 

[emoney_33]

The description of Maroney as a disappointment is my opinion of him. If a running back drafted in the first round getting 750 yards is your idea of a successful pick than thats setting the bar pretty low. I called Maroney a part time starter which he is and Whilite a nickel back which is what he ended the season as. Did he (Maroney) or did he not get benched towards the end of the year?

He did not and will open as the starter in 2010... again. Your supposition of what a 1st RB SHOULD be is meaningless to the discussion. Maroney has clearly done a -good- job of doing what he has been ASKED to do by the team that actually drafted him.

Call Wilhite whatever you want, you cannot argue against the fact that he had more snaps than any other CB except Bodden. That's a simple fact, and doesn't really matter what you believe it to be or what you want to make it look like based on your subjective criteria of who played the first snap in the last couple of games. Plus since when can a team survive WITHOUT a nickel back?

 

[BradyFTW!]

By your own account from 06-08 Steelers drafted;
Santonio Holmes
Lamar Woodley
Lawrence Timmons
R.Mendenhall
W.Colon -starting RT
W.Gay -starting CB
Sepulveda P

Pats starters 06-08
Meriweather
Mayo

part timers
Maroney
Wilhite

Gostkowski

Every team is going to have its misses. It's the hits that matter. By my account Steelers still did better during that span

How are Mendenhall, Colon, Gay, and Sepulveda considered starters, but Maroney, Wilhite and Gostkowski aren't? Wilhite, when he was eventually displaced, was pushed out of the starting lineup by a 2009 draft pick, btw, so I'm really not sure how that supports your point that the Pats haven't drafted well recently.

Yes, the Steelers drafted more starters in 2006-2008. But that is because the Patriots didn't have any 2nd or 3rd round picks in 2007- when you have ONE first day pick for a draft, that has a huge impact on the number of starters you draft over a three-year span. I don't advocate pretending that we drafted Welker since that's where the 2nd and 7th went, but you also can't compare straight-up without adjusting at all for the fact that we turned a pick into Welker, thus foregoing a chance at what might have become a Greg Jennings (or a Chad Jackson). For a true evaluation, you have to find a middle ground between those two extremes.

The real point, which Deus made very well, is that the Steelers whiff just as badly as we do, and maybe even worse. Every team swings and misses from time to time. We did on Chad Jackson, they did on Limas Sweed. We did on Crable, they did in Davis. And we've never whiffed on a first-round pick as badly as they did on Hood.

Have the Steelers drafted better than we have since 2006? You could say that. Is there some enormous gap between the two teams? Absolutely not. IMO the Steelers have drafted slightly better, mostly on the strength of the Woodley pick, which we don't have an equivalent for.