Wilfork an Elite 3-4 Defensive Tackle. A Myth?

[maverick4]

RayClay thanks for the legwork.

I wasn't aware BB said that about Wilfork.

 

[RayClay]

RayClay thanks for the legwork.

I wasn't aware BB said that about Wilfork.

Obviously, I'm not saying that i watch the middle of the line the whole game, but i do try to keep track of the opinions of coaches and writers I respect, for those parts of the game I don't judge well.

I remember way back wondering what the big deal was about Hannah. Of course, he was all everything according to the pundits. We didn't have the camera work, isolation and replays anything like today. We didn't have many specials either, but they did one on Hannah, so I sat down to watch. He pulled on a sweep, feigned one guy so he slowed, then lined uo the other guy, put his arms out and whap! Knocked them both off their feet. The running back was so shocked to have no one to run into, he stumbled and almost fell. Ha ha.

Anyway, Wilfork's no Washington, no one is. I trust that he's strong enough and uses leverage well enough because everybody says so. As a bonus, he's also very athletic which cause some huge plays when things break down.

When you have two or three guys trying to defeat you, you're going to get caught off balance sometime. I remember how Washington got flipped in the air and injured by Mawae. If that's possible anything is.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The question to me is, do the 4-3 tackles projected as NTs make that switch successfully and are they happy with it? There was no guarantee Vince would, but since he has, his value is way higher than a "maybe".

Name another if there is, but I see only two premier NTs under 30 in the league. There just isn't much carryover from being a 4-3 lineman to shouldering the burden of the whole middle of the D and the only way to prove you can do it is learn and produce consistently for a number of years.

Kris Jenkins is 29 if you'd count him as premier, but personally I wouldn't because of his conditioning/durability issues. Shaun Rogers is 30. With both of them having had immediate success as NTs after playing their careers as 4-3 DTs, though, there's certainly a precedent for the move. It takes a pretty specific kind of athlete to project to NT, but, within that constraint, I think that there's a fair number of 4-3 DTs who could play NT if called upon to do so. Haynesworth, for starters, would absolutely kill as one.

 

[sieglo]

I wonder what Washington's 40 time was versus Brace's?

I also wonder where our defense ranked when opponents ran at Warren.

 

[Bartmac36]

I think Wilfork is good at what he does...but I do get frustrated with opponents always running up the middle on us for big gains...maybe we should give Brace a shot...

 

[slash83]

I think Wilfork is good at what he does...but I do get frustrated with opponents always running up the middle on us for big gains...maybe we should give Brace a shot...

Thank the football gods you have nothing to do with calling the shots for the patriots.

 

[RayClay]

Kris Jenkins is 29 if you'd count him as premier, but personally I wouldn't because of his conditioning/durability issues. Shaun Rogers is 30. With both of them having had immediate success as NTs after playing their careers as 4-3 DTs, though, there's certainly a precedent for the move. It takes a pretty specific kind of athlete to project to NT, but, within that constraint, I think that there's a fair number of 4-3 DTs who could play NT if called upon to do so. Haynesworth, for starters, would absolutely kill as one.

That's kind of the point though. Veterans switched to NT later in career. Traylor was too. Bob Golic became an All Pro, he was an LB like Traylor.

Don't ask me why, by the way, but it's been noted that many make the move from other positions, few are successful right out of the draft.

I swear I've heard it from coaches, maybe writers, but don't know how to google for it.

 

[maverick4]

Doesn't that hurt the argument for Wilfork though, if as you said it's possible to find veteran 4-3 DT's who can play NT?

 

[Deus Irae]

Doesn't that hurt the argument for Wilfork though, if as you said it's possible to find veteran 4-3 DT's who can play NT?

Why would it, given that the Patriots failed miserably when they tried that before getting Washington?

 

[RayClay]

Doesn't that hurt the argument for Wilfork though, if as you said it's possible to find veteran 4-3 DT's who can play NT?

That's the thing, it's possible. You need the size, athletic ability and willingness to put up with the punishment, boredom and lack of credit, while learning the technique.

There are now more teams than adequate NTs so it's like musical chairs. Teams will be trying and swapping out failed NTs until they get lucky. Traylor was a stop gap with Wilfork for one year and played Nose some with Miami (although Ref. lists him as a 4-3 tackle).

Here's his smooth transition from failed 3rd round linebacker to 4-3 tackle, to nose guard.

Traylor was waived by the Broncos in June 1993.

Traylor signed with the Los Angeles Raiders on July 19, 1993

Traylor was released by the team on November 9. (Green Bay 1993).

Traylor remained a free agent until being signed by the Kansas City Chiefs on January 5, 1994. He was inactive for the team's first-round playoff game and was waived the following week.

He was re-signed by the Chiefs in May 1994, but was released by the team on August 28 during final cutdowns and spent the entire season out of football.

Traylor was once again re-signed by the Chiefs on February 28, 1995.

Playing in the World League of American Football (now NFL Europa) Traylor began to add mass to his linebacker's body for a move to the defensive line. He started three of the eight games that he played with the Barcelona Dragons, recording 18 tackles and a pair of fumble recoveries.

Traylor made the Chiefs' roster out of training camp (1995) and appeared in all 16 games in a reserve role. He was credited with 19 tackles, 1.5 sacks, a fumble recovery, a forced fumble and four passes defensed.

In 1997, Traylor returned to the team that drafted him six years prior (Denver)

Traylor joined the Chicago Bears as an unrestricted free agent in 2001...Traylor and fellow big man Ted Washington controlled the middle of the field.

Traylor joined the New England Patriots in 2004 and went on to start 10 of the 16 regular season games at nose tackle.

Keith Traylor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RayClay]

Doesn't that hurt the argument for Wilfork though, if as you said it's possible to find veteran 4-3 DT's who can play NT?

Few players able to start in a 4-3 are willing to change to Nose tackle. Ted Washington hated the position. I think he rightly realized as the best he could demand a bigger check and a longer career.

Wilfork has a real winning personality, is a fan favorite and gets lots of props from the coach as we've seen. How would you like to do twice as much work and get no credit by changing jobs? That's the typical NT.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Few players able to start in a 4-3 are willing to change to Nose tackle. Ted Washington hated the position. I think he rightly realized as the best he could demand a bigger check and a longer career.

Wilfork has a real winning personality, is a fan favorite and gets lots of props from the coach as we've seen. How would you like to do twice as much work and get no credit by changing jobs? That's the typical NT.

So Washington hated being a NT in Buffalo's 3-4 before he went to the Bears? You guys know that Buffalo used to run a 3-4 right?

 

[RayClay]

So Washington hated being a NT in Buffalo's 3-4 before he went to the Bears? You guys know that Buffalo used to run a 3-4 right?

Where did i say he only played it for the Pats? That would be stupid. He's probably the most well known contemporary nose tackle.

Jeez, I suppose i could have written that better, but reread it. I never said NE was his first NT job. He was obviously a well known great NT at the time we acquired him.

 

[RayClay]

For your information, Pro ref has him listed at NT one year in San Fransisco and later in Cleveland.

And he hated every minute of it.

 

[Dragda]

Im not saying there supposed to be prolific pass rushers, Wilfork does a damn good job VS the run, Id take him over Williams or Hampton, not only cause hes younger but hes just as good as the two. Mangold of the Jets praised Wilfork as the hardest DT to go against, so did former Dolphins C Satale or something like that, he put Vince ahead of all the NT's he faced, which included Jenkins, Williams, and Hampton I believe.

I no Wilfork didnt have his best year last season and there were a couple times I was like wtf, but the guy is an elite NT; as good as he is or any other nt is they all need help from the ilbs behind them in one way or another.

I just don't agree. There isn't that dramatic of a drop off when someone like Mike Wright has to man the position. That said, he's quite good--not elite. If both Seymour and Warren, who are both elite (IMO), are fully healthy this year Wilfork will look great again as he will seldom see the double team. He's the weakest link of our starting three, but that is a luxury problem if it's even a problem at all.

Our defense is built to stop the run and Wilfork does a good job there. I agree it's unfair to compare him to Ted Washington because he can't hold Ted's jock. He's not at that elite level and it appears he never will be.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: NTs not getting recognition, I'd agree to some extent, but not really. As 3-4 is increasingly adopted across the league, recognition of them as a key cog in the defense has risen as well. I'd argue that it's already there. Sure, there aren't a ton of statistics to be had, but defensive tackles in general aren't very effectively evaluated using tackles or sacks, so that's hardly new.

Considering that there are about 1/4th as many starting NTs in the league as there are 4-3 DTs, and that 2 of the 7 highest-paid defensive tackles in the league were NTs last year (Hampton and Jenkins), and that Wilfork will almost certainly break into that group in the next year, I'd say it's pretty clear that NTs are highly valued from a salary standpoint. If they're underpaid, it's because top-tier DTs in general don't make a ton of money. Looking at the franchise and transition tag amounts, they're coming in well behind LBs and DEs (not to even mention CBs) and about on par with safeties.

Franchise and transition tender amounts

 

[RayClay]

Re: NTs not getting recognition, I'd agree to some extent, but not really. As 3-4 is increasingly adopted across the league, recognition of them as a key cog in the defense has risen as well. I'd argue that it's already there. Sure, there aren't a ton of statistics to be had, but defensive tackles in general aren't very effectively evaluated using tackles or sacks, so that's hardly new.

Considering that there are about 1/4th as many starting NTs in the league as there are 4-3 DTs, and that 2 of the 7 highest-paid defensive tackles in the league were NTs last year (Hampton and Jenkins), and that Wilfork will almost certainly break into that group in the next year, I'd say it's pretty clear that NTs are highly valued from a salary standpoint. If they're underpaid, it's because top-tier DTs in general don't make a ton of money. Looking at the franchise and transition tag amounts, they're coming in well behind LBs and DEs (not to even mention CBs) and about on par with safeties.

Franchise and transition tender amounts

Certainly recognized by teams, in fact they demand a good wage if they are also in demand as 4-3's. Less sacks, less tackles and wrestling 2-3 guys every play.

I think I've already stated that guys like Washington that could start at either position, make sure they get paid to play nose. I don't think I ever said underpaid, they are highly valued by teams.

I just mean not glamorous, not fun. Like digging a ditch all day. You couldn't pay a guy like Warren Sapp enough to do that all day.

And they get screwed in the franchise pay by being tied into average tackles as well.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Ted Washington is unique. Wilfork is a different player, but not easily replaceable. First page of articles I googled says KC looking for NT and you can bet they'd pay big for Wilfork.

Every other article says it's the hardest position to fill in a 3-4.

Yupyup. And with more and more teams trying the 3-4 Big Vince could command some demand if he were to hit the open market. He rarely blows a play and he does his job everytime all the time. And he's fairly athletic for his size plus he's such a stand-up guy; what team could go wrong banking with Big Vince.

Ted Washington was one of the best too and IMHO Big Vince is the closest we've come to Ted's effectiveness, but still they're two different kinds of players so adjustments are likely made for that fact.

I'd love another Ted Washington but NT isn't exactly a rock star position that attracts hundreds. Big Vince is elite in his position and given the trends lately the good old NT position may finally see some recognition around the league and if it does I think Big Vince will have had a lot to do with that.

He (and some of his antics ) made himself a household name and brought NT into focus. Whatever BB does and chooses comes into focus anyway; add a tough,excellent NT into the mix and it's a bonanza

 

[supafly]

I think this is something we could debate for pages and pages (Adam Seward--anyone??), as both players are tremendously talented. I think we can all agree that we would love to have both players, and both bring so much to this defense.

What it comes down to for me the average fan, is that IF and only IF-- we had to choose one or the other, it seems there may be at least some other options as far as replacing Wilfork. I have no idea if those options would work or not, or how much (significant) drop off we'd have using Wright/Brace, or maybe bringing in another 4-3 DT to try and transition to 3-4 NT, or even the fact that there seems to be at least some other decent 3-4 NT's out there etc, etc.

It just seems the fact remains that there may at least be some other options out there, while I really don't see too many current available options to replacing Seymour right now--as many feel he is the elite 3-4 DE in the game. All that said, it seems like we could just continue to go 'round and 'round with other variables such as Wilfork's being younger, maybe having more possible overall career upside, etc.

While I'm still on the 'rather keeping Seymour side,' I'd have to say it'd still be pretty damn hard to replace Vince too. I think this will certainly be one of the most interesting storylines of the upcoming season/offseason.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Certainly recognized by teams, in fact they demand a good wage if they are also in demand as 4-3's. Less sacks, less tackles and wrestling 2-3 guys every play.

I think I've already stated that guys like Washington that could start at either position, make sure they get paid to play nose. I don't think I ever said underpaid, they are highly valued by teams.

I just mean not glamorous, not fun. Like digging a ditch all day. You couldn't pay a guy like Warren Sapp enough to do that all day.

And they get screwed in the franchise pay by being tied into average tackles as well.

Being lumped in together for determining franchise/transition tag values actually helps both nose tackles and defensive tackles. Since it only averages the top 5 and 10 salaries at the position, it logically follows that sampling from a larger group of players can only benefit all of them (or, at the very least, can't hurt any of them).

If NTs were separate, you'd be starting with Hampton as the highest-paid at $5.2M, and Jenkins would be #2 at $5.15M. Which means that it would be theoretically impossible for the franchise tag value to above $5.2M (an average of 5 values can't be larger than the highest value in the dataset), and it would probably be much lower. The defensive tackle franchise tag, OTOH, is $6.06M, so the value is going to be at least $1M higher due to being lumped together. It's 4-3 DTs that don't benefit at all from the arrangement. Their franchise value would be only $10,000 lower if they were separated from NTs.