The more you think about it and see photos, it was a dirty hit..

[3.2 Blues]

So if I can understand the overwhelming sentiment on this board it is that if a player gets knocked to the ground he should give up as the only way he will make a play is if he hits the person w/ the ball below the knees - and this can cause injury? OK, I guess this is a different game of football than what I grew up with...

Injuries happen and it sucks that one of the best players in the NFL got hurt. That's the dangers of this game, however, and to try to have players lay off the qb is ridiculous. Why not throw a yellow 'no touch' jersey on the quarterbacks?!?

 

[emoney_33]

So if I can understand the overwhelming sentiment on this board it is that if a player gets knocked to the ground he should give up as the only way he will make a play is if he hits the person w/ the ball below the knees - and this can cause injury? OK, I guess this is a different game of football than what I grew up with...

Injuries happen and it sucks that one of the best players in the NFL got hurt. That's the dangers of this game, however, and to try to have players lay off the qb is ridiculous. Why not throw a yellow 'no touch' jersey on the quarterbacks?!?

Yea giving up is the only other option... Getting up is not an option, anything aside from MISSILING yourself into his knees is not an option...

 

[40yrpatsfan]

So if I can understand the overwhelming sentiment on this board it is that if a player gets knocked to the ground he should give up as the only way he will make a play is if he hits the person w/ the ball below the knees - and this can cause injury? OK, I guess this is a different game of football than what I grew up with...

Because the QB in the act of throwing is totally vulnerable.

 

[BadMoFo]

brady is gone for the year. dirty? not dirty? what difference does it make.

Exactly, what difference does it make.

 

[Metaphors]

Met, it's pretty difficult to launch one's helmet horizontally when one is already on the ground, especially in such a way that would make it egregious to the rules as they are written. He was continuing the play and doing what he could to make the play. He extended his arms and they actually came into contact with Brady before his helmet did. Contact with a helmet is absolutely fine in the NFL and happens all the time simply because it is a physical game and it is impossible to completely guard against just such hits. It's when those hits are intentional that they are illegal. It's hard to argue Pollard's was intentional.

Wow. So much here I need a list:

1) Never said the hit was malicious since it is impossible to know for sure. The hit was negligent because it is Pollard's responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen.

2) There are limits to how you "continue the play" or "make the play". Just because you find yourself blocked around the QB doesn't give you the right to smack him in the helmet just because that was the only play you could make. Even if you are blocked and try to swing for his arm, if you contact his helmet you get a personal foul. Just because you are on the ground doesn't give you the right to hit a QB in the knee. After Pollard was blocked to the ground, if you remove Morris completely from the situation, what would the result of "continuing the play" have been? If you can look at the video and see Pollard hitting Brady anywhere but in the knee, you are fooling yourself.

3) Are you serious about hitting with the helmet? Ever heard of helmet-to-helmet contact? If a DB launches himself into a receiver with the crown of his helmet, you don't think that will be a personal foul (Geno was often accused of this back in the day when he actually still hit people)? I will agree that people get away with "spearing" all the time. It doesn't make it legal or a necessary/desirable/safe part of football. And it is certainly not something the league would agree is "absolutely fine".

4) There is only one rule on the books that I can find that requires determination of intent...amazingly enough called "intentional grounding". There is no "intentional holding" or "intentional pass interference". Intent doesn't enter into the determination of whether something is legal or not...though it can make the penalty more severe if the refs determine that there was intent (ejection vs. just a 15 yard penalty).

If you want to argue the Pollard didn't violate the letter of the rule because "unimpeded" can be interpreted in a variety of ways, go for it. Hell, that is what the league is doing. Making the leap to saying that the hit was anything but dangerous and unnecessary is where you are going to lose any credibility.

 

[3.2 Blues]

Yea giving up is the only other option... Getting up is not an option, anything aside from MISSILING yourself into his knees is not an option...

OK. So we'll go w/ your option. He could fight his was all the way up and then try to get at the QB. Seems to me that this would take longer than his route (especially w/ a 240 lb man on your back) and the objective is to get to the QB to knock him down as quickly as you can. And my definition of missiling is taking a run of at least 10 yards, building up steam and waylaying somebody. Your definition must be to struggle forward a yard or two from one position to another trying to make a play. I understand the anger but this is one of those instances where there is no good person to lay the blame on. Like I said, injuries happen and this one sucks for the NFL in general (not just Patriot fans). I lost the chance to see one of the best play during his prime for a year. I feel like I got cheated as well!!!

 

[3.2 Blues]

Because the QB in the act of throwing is totally vulnerable.

What about a receiver who has sold himself up to go over the middle for a ball thrown a little high? Should we make it illegal for a safety to come over and lay out this receiver because he is vulnerable? Football is a violent game w/ injuries and any one of those players is only one play away from never playing again. Don't like the game there is always soccer!!!

 

[karran_s]

He was not attempting to wrap up and make a tackle... He lunged on hands and knees at Brady's legs. DIRTY

I would agree with the original poster... Bernard Pollard has made his name famous by hitting TB below the belt.

No one heard of this guy before yesterday. Now, he's really made a name for himself.. I think he should be fined / suspended...

Anyway, just my opinion... 100% dirty from the get go...

 

[pheenix11]

I wonder why its not ok to crack back an offensive lineman in the knee but its ok to spear a QB in the knee?

 

[Metaphors]

So if I can understand the overwhelming sentiment on this board it is that if a player gets knocked to the ground he should give up as the only way he will make a play is if he hits the person w/ the ball below the knees - and this can cause injury? OK, I guess this is a different game of football than what I grew up with...

If a lineman misses a blocking assignment and the only way to stop the pass rusher is to stick out his leg and trip him, is that OK?

How about if a pass rusher is blocked around a QB and the only part of his body he can reach is his head, should he smack him in the helmet?

If a sideline pass is underthrown and a defender is between you and the ball, are you allowed to push the defender out of the way?

No, No and No. Players are put in situations all the time where the only choice to get a successful result would be to break a rule. Just because you won't make the play doesn't give you license to do whatever you want. Pollard had a choice. Swing his hand and hit Brady's leg. Use his energy to get back on his feet in the direction of Brady. Anything but spear a stationary player in the knee.

 

[3.2 Blues]

I wonder why its not ok to crack back an offensive lineman in the knee but its ok to spear a QB in the knee?

Because in the officials eyes he is not a QB, he is a ball carrier. Same reason you can tackle a running back or receiver at the knees if they have the ball. If you wanna push for a change to the rule that is one thing but to equate one thing to the other is quite a stretch.

By the way, if the QB was out leading a play to throw a block (like on a reverse) and somebody came in and took his knees out that would be illegal as well!!!

 

[3.2 Blues]

If a lineman misses a blocking assignment and the only way to stop the pass rusher is to stick out his leg and trip him, is that OK?

How about if a pass rusher is blocked around a QB and the only part of his body he can reach is his head, should he smack him in the helmet?

If a sideline pass is underthrown and a defender is between you and the ball, are you allowed to push the defender out of the way?

No, No and No. Players are put in situations all the time where the only choice to get a successful result would be to break a rule. Just because you won't make the play doesn't give you license to do whatever you want. Pollard had a choice. Swing his hand and hit Brady's leg. Use his energy to get back on his feet in the direction of Brady. Anything but spear a stationary player in the knee.

A lineman missing a block and tripping the player that beat him is illegal - it's in the rule book.

A DL that overruns the play and hits the QB in the head is illegal - it's in the rule book.

If a sideline pass is underthrown and a defender is between a player and the ball then the player cannot push the player out of the way. It's illegal because it's in the rule book.

Getting knocked to the ground, scrapping to get to the ball carrier (this means he was impeded) and then hitting the ball carrier below the knee is OK because it is NOT in the rule book.

Not sure what you were going for here but you just solidified my point...

 

[kolbitr]

Not sure what you were going for here but you just solidified my point...

Are you really this dense, you crackerheaded troll? You have missed the entire point of the larger issue, which would certainly not have been lost on you last season in your attacks on Wilfork...hiding behind a specious at-best understanding of the rulebook on such matters is a sophistic and cowardly approach, when if the situation were reversed, you would be among the first to fling it aside.

 

[3.2 Blues]

Are you really this dense, you crackerheaded troll? You have missed the entire point of the larger issue, which would certainly not have been lost on you last season in your attacks on Wilfork...hiding behind a specious at-best understanding of the rulebook on such matters is a sophistic and cowardly approach, when if the situation were reversed, you would be among the first to fling it aside.

HUH?!? I never attacked Wilfork last season as I think that is another example of how rough of a game football is. And my "specious at-best understanding of the rulebook" being a "sophistic and cowardly approach" is laughable! I guess the last 10 years of my life I've spent being a high school and college official (for the last 2 years) doesn't qualify me. I'll take the insight you have gained by watching Madden every Sunday during football season as more significant.

All I did was merely point out that it sucked Brady got injured but that to direct your anger at Pollard is misplaced. I know how Patriot nation feels. When Terrell Davis went out w/ a knee injury during his prime I was pissed off at Brian Griese for a while (one of his weak throws knocked Ed McCaffery out of the game as well on a pass over the middle). But this is football and injuries happen...

 

[emoney_33]

A lineman missing a block and tripping the player that beat him is illegal - it's in the rule book.

A DL that overruns the play and hits the QB in the head is illegal - it's in the rule book.

If a sideline pass is underthrown and a defender is between a player and the ball then the player cannot push the player out of the way. It's illegal because it's in the rule book.

Getting knocked to the ground, scrapping to get to the ball carrier (this means he was impeded) and then hitting the ball carrier below the knee is OK because it is NOT in the rule book.

Not sure what you were going for here but you just solidified my point...

Do you realize that the rulebook constantly changes and has changed since the game was invented?

Were horse-collar tackles not dirty before they made them illegal?
Were clothesline tackles not ugly or dirty before they were outlawed?

This isn't about the f'ing letter of the law, so throw your stupid rule book out. NO GOOD can possibly come from missiling at a players knees, especially a QB who is vulnerable. It was still a completed pass, but he took Brady out for the year. Are you that blind/ignorant that you think what Pollard did was really OK? What's the difference between what he did and say another player "slipping" and then missiling into the QB's knees rather than getting up.

Patriots players have not ever missiled into a QB's knees and they HAVE been knocked down before, they get up, crawl, go for the waist, try to grab the ankle with their hands, but never have I seen a pats player just missile himself from his hands and knees into a QB's knees like that. Watch the play 100 times in a row, please, go to youtube.


I didn't think it was dirty until I saw the full speed replay on youtube.

 

[Two Eight]

Not dirty (neither was Wilfork IMO) but it was illegal and it's BS there was no flag especially since the play resulted in a turnover. It should have been 1st & 10 on the KC 27 instead of Cassel having to start from his own 2 yard line.

 

[DaBruinz]

Really?



http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5007

I don't care what caused the writing of the rule. The only thing that we can assume with a long-standing (several years) rule is that it is written as it is intended to rule. As it is currently written, the rule is to prevent unimpeded blows to a quarterback's legs.

Read the friggin' rule.

I've read the rule. It doesn't explain why Wilfork was fined when he was BLOCKED (impeded) right into Losman by Brad Badger, the Bills OG.

I'm sorry but LUNGING your full body weight into a QBs knees has MORE intent than Wilfork "sticking his arm up".

 

[DaBruinz]

He didn't do any of what you claim.

You're an ignorant fool who is arguing against reality, reason and the rule. The people who wrote the rules, too.

Sorry, but you are the one who is arguing against reality and reason. As for the rule, its CLEAR that they are not enforcing it the same way.

1) Morris landed on top of Pollard because Pollard attempted to cut block Morris to begin with.

2) Pollard DID launch himself at Brady even though it was CLEAR that Brady was already in his throwing motion.

Vince Wilfork got fined when he was blocked into Losman by Brad Badger last year, yet they are claiming the same rule applies. That's fact. I watched the play enough times and nothing you can say will change that.

If we follow that the rule says that its only an UNIMPEDED BLOCKER that can't hit the QB below the knee, then Wilfork shouldn't have been fined.

 

[DaBruinz]

So if I can understand the overwhelming sentiment on this board it is that if a player gets knocked to the ground he should give up as the only way he will make a play is if he hits the person w/ the ball below the knees - and this can cause injury? OK, I guess this is a different game of football than what I grew up with...

Injuries happen and it sucks that one of the best players in the NFL got hurt. That's the dangers of this game, however, and to try to have players lay off the qb is ridiculous. Why not throw a yellow 'no touch' jersey on the quarterbacks?!?

I'll be nice to you since you are a newbie. Your making a MAJOR exaggeration of what is being said and you are misrepresenting it.

1) Brady was already in his throwing motion when Pollard launched himself.
2) No one says that you have to give up on the play. However, if you are going to fine one player for being BLOCKED (impeded) by the OG into the QB and it results in the defensive player hitting the QB low, then you should also FINE the defensive player who cut block a RB and then launched himself at the QB and hit him low. The results are the same. The QB got hit LOW and suffered a season ending injury. The penalties, though, are different. Its an inconsistency and a major one. And its one that I would argue against whether it was Wilfork and Brady or it was Pat Williams and Tavarius Jackson.


Yes, this is a physical sport. However, when a QB is in a defenseless position the way that Carson Palmer, JP Losman and Brady were, then there need to be rules against hitting them in the legs because, more often than not, it will result in a major injury.

As someone else pointed out. The league has changed several rules over the past years to help protect players. From the hitting of defenseless WRs as they go up for a catch to "horse collar" tackles.

The league has a rule and its not being dispensed fairly.

 

[DaBruinz]

OK. So we'll go w/ your option. He could fight his was all the way up and then try to get at the QB. Seems to me that this would take longer than his route (especially w/ a 240 lb man on your back) and the objective is to get to the QB to knock him down as quickly as you can. And my definition of missiling is taking a run of at least 10 yards, building up steam and waylaying somebody. Your definition must be to struggle forward a yard or two from one position to another trying to make a play. I understand the anger but this is one of those instances where there is no good person to lay the blame on. Like I said, injuries happen and this one sucks for the NFL in general (not just Patriot fans). I lost the chance to see one of the best play during his prime for a year. I feel like I got cheated as well!!!

How did the 240 lb RB get on Pollard's back to begin with? OH YEAH, that's right. Pollard attempted to cut block Morris and, instead, landed with Morris on his back.

Your definition of missiling isn't reality. I can LUNGE with enough force to propel myself into someone even with 240lbs on my back. And I am not football player.

You're making excuses for Pollard is ridiculous.