SB51 Review: Did Malcolm Butler play himself out of a big contract with NE?

[RobertWeathers]

This is a great post.

It's pretty straightforward.

Malcolm doesn't have any leverage and his agent is not giving him good advice.

If it's true the NEP offered Malcolm $10m AAV he is a goddamn fool.

 

[RIpats88]

I think Butlers agent is over his head with this one.

If pats didnt want to pay butler i think they would have kept ryan on his 10mill deal.

But i think they view butler as somewhere between ryan and gilmore and view him as maybe an 11.5million player.

His agent seems to ignore that butler is a rfa. Not sure what butler gains by being difficult. He IS going to get paid. It seems his agent wants him to get paid NOW ignoring he is a rfa with no leverage here

 

[PatsBoy12]

It's pretty straightforward.

Malcolm doesn't have any leverage and his agent is not giving him good advice.

If it's true the NEP offered Malcolm $10m AAV he is a goddamn fool.

I agree completely.

 

[PatsBoy12]

He stepped on Butler's foot. The pics you posted aren't the right frames or the right angle. See this thread:

That "ankle breaking" juke on Butler? He stepped on Butler's foot

In particular look at post 5 where I locked in on the relevant frames. I was skeptical at first, too, until I saw that camera angle slowed down. Here's the three frames clearly showing him step on Butler's left foot. It is impossible to see in real-time from the angle shown in the game:

That said, Butler definitely gets burned on go routes when he is covering a fast x-receiver. That's why we don't typically have him cover such people by himself, he needs safety help over the top. He's very good at covering the slot receiver 1 on 1, though. Gabriel was a "no-name", but a no-name that ran a 4.27 40-yard dash on his pro day (wind at his back, but still--Butler has always had trouble with guys with raw top-end speed).

We hashed this crap out quite a bit before the Steelers game:
Do you trust Butler to take on Antonio Brown? And if not, what adjustments do you make in coverage?

Respect, Neuro. I don't think he gets beat on straight go routes that often. He tends to get beat on double moves and trails the receiver the rest of the way. He sometimes still makes a good play on the ball though, so I'm not too concerned. It's not like he's given up many TD's since becoming the #1 corner.

 

[brdmaverick]

SB 51 was certainly not his best effort but I would find it nearly impossible to write him off as 'not a big game cb' after SB 49.

 

[venecol]

It's not bias I am looking at a guy's foot get stepped on, and was skeptical believed the standard story before doing this. Not sure what u think you see in third frame. Center frame he is bringing his foot up, maybe, before it gets stepped on!

The pic doesn't show depth perception, just Gabriel's foot in front of Butlers. Is the Ref's foot in the background stepping on Gabriel's arm (exaggeration to make the point). An overhead shot would be better to make the determination.

 

[Brady6]

I'm am not sure how the Butler situation is any different than when the Broncos signed Talib before extending Chris Harris Jr. who was playing on a $2.5M RFA tender at the time.

 

[brdmaverick]

OP, thanks for the insight. To be honest I wasn't aware that Butler got burned on that Hightower sack play. I'll have to look at that again.

 

[PatsBoy12]

SB 51 was certainly not his best effort but I would find it nearly impossible to write him off as 'not a big game cb' after SB 49.

I don't think he had a bad game at all in SB51, and he made the biggest plays in the secondary in the second half of SB49, including having the presence of mind to tackle Kearse after the crazy catch. Harmon thought the play was over.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

It's not bias I am looking at a guy's foot get stepped on, and was skeptical believed the standard story before doing this. Not sure what u think you see in third frame. Center frame he is bringing his foot up, maybe, before it gets stepped on!

I don't think we can get to a positive answer this way. You are right, center frame Butler is bringing up (and back) his foot, before "contact." I've watched this a few more times now. You just can't prove from a head-on view this theory that he stepped on his foot. The bottom of the three shots above could be stepping on, or in front of, his foot.

Final point, stepping "on" his foot would preclude Gabriel's plant-foot digging into turf, so I assume you're postulating contact to the side of Butler's foot?

Just curious about exactly what your theory is. Check the mechanics of those three shots in the context of the video clip - like I said, the general flow of the play has Butler springing backward, and your second pic has him beginning that motion before what you're saying is "contact."

So in this one play, at least, Butler is torched by the time of what you think is contact.

Nothing against you, I think what you're seeing is akin to this:



Feet are close to each other. One guy springs back. We spring back when hurt. Therefore, one guy stepped on the other guy.

On the other hand, Butler seems to be guessing left (from our perspective) based on the head fake. He might be springing back to avoid contact. For whatever reason, in your second picture above, his foot is already coming up in his "spring-back" maneuver. So you're postulating that, having begun this spring-back (frame 2) it goes south in frame 3 because he is tripped up by contact.

That still puts Butler way out of position (which to your credit you do acknowledge)... all we're quibbling about is whether you can establish contact resulting in Butler looking sillier because he falls down while allowing the catch.

It's indeed a close call, but that lead foot looks much more likely to be simply coming down on turf to me. It would be another matter if it never dug into the turf or was significantly deflected. I didn't see that happening.

All that said: that play just proves that sometimes the other guy beats you. That's not his whole body of work, and nobody with half a brain (the Foxboro brain trust qualifies) is going to knock down an offer by 20% or something based on that one play.

 

[wizwor]

It's funny how everyone loved Butler (and this is not a slight on you OP) but since he didn't sign an extension and we bought another expensive CB, a lot of people are now saying he was always overrated, and we should have traded him for a pick anyway.

First, he made the play in SB49 and that is worth a LOT. When Butler took Meevis' place the following year, a LOT of people thought the Pats were in trouble. He's played very well. No doubt he will get paid. The question is how much an by whom.

MB had issues that found him in Popeyes when he should have been playing college ball somewhere. That counts too. With regard to The Play, remember that he was beaten on that play in practice. He was a partner in the success with 1. whoever put that play in practice, 2. whoever coached him on it after he was beaten, 3. Pete Carroll, and 4. whoever got him on the field for that down. That's what we know.

What we don't know is how the Pats value MB and how MB values MB. We also do not know what the Pats plan for him is.

I think everyone needs to relax. If BB thinks MB is worth less than MB thinks, the Pats will move on. If not, MB will get paid.

This whole situation reminds me of the Dieon Branch fiasco. It may be that MB is worth more to the Pats than other teams. If other teams realize that now, MB is not going to get an offer. If they realize that later, we may be able to secure his services for much less in a year or two. In all cases, I trust Coach to do what is best for the team and will ALWAYS love MB for making The Play.

 

[Art_Vandelay421]

Lots of assumptions as we really do not know all of the details of what was offered and counter offered, and much is assumed.. how do you quantify, "not asking for the moon" as his agent claimed. As fans we cannot agree on whether he was stepped on or fell.

I am a huge Butler fan, but first he needs to sign his tender then other things may fall into place, if the greatest leverage he has is his pen, he ain't got nothing..

He has an agent with one client, who views this as a "interest"... wonder if things would have moved differently for a more seasoned agent.. all week been hearing on the radio how Butler is disrespected and other such nonsense.. I do not see a lot of disrespect, I see the Pats playing by the rules set down by the NFLPA...

Step 1 Malcolm, get a seasoned NFL agent.. not some local yokel who does this stuff on the side..

Better call Saul!

 

[bormio]

BB loves Butler as a player, loves his competitiveness. What he does not love and has no patience for is being unreasonable in contract negotiations. I really do not think BB was enamored with paying Gilmore $13 mil, but he was not going to be screwed with by Butler's agent. Butler's performance was not what had him being dangled for a trade, it was Butler's agent. I do not think Butler was looking to leave, now may have no choice. On the field Butler has done everything we could ask of him and more.

 

[neuronet]

Respect, Neuro. I don't think he gets beat on straight go routes that often. He tends to get beat on double moves and trails the receiver the rest of the way. He sometimes still makes a good play on the ball though, so I'm not too concerned. It's not like he's given up many TD's since becoming the #1 corner.

Yes good point I usually only see the end of the play so not sure how it developed.

 

[Tony2046]

Gabriel stepped on Butler's foot. It wasn't a matter of Gabriel juking him so badly that he fell.

He didn't step on his foot. He may have contacted Butler's left foot during the cut but if he did it was slight. I can't tell with 100% certainty if Butler lost balance, if he was tripped up (if he was it was slight) or a combination of both.

Beginning of the route.


Beginning of Gabriel's juke towards the outside.


Butler stops his route and begins to shift his coverage to the outside.


Gabriel cuts hard back to the inside which caught Butler off balance.

 

[neuronet]

I don't think we can get to a positive answer this way.

Ames' room won't let you see one person squashing another person's foot, which is what we ostensibly see happening from frames 1-3. The physics of deformation don't work that way.

I agree you can't be 100% on this: we need more angles. If God were here and could adjudicate a bet, I'd wager $100 his foot was stepped on. I wouldn't bet my house though.

 

[neuronet]

He didn't step on his foot. He may have contacted Butler's left foot during the cut but if he did it was slight. I can't tell with 100% certainty if Butler lost balance, if he was tripped up (if he was it was slight) or a combination of both.

Beginning of the route.
View attachment 16542

Beginning of Gabriel's juke towards the outside.
View attachment 16544

Butler stops his route and begins to shift his coverage to the outside.
View attachment 16545

Gabriel cuts hard back to the inside which caught Butler off balance.
View attachment 16546

You haven't included the relevant frames. See the frames I included, in particular frame 3.

 

[Tony2046]

The guy had an All-Pro season but two bad plays that resulted in exactly one TD should take him out of a big contract?

I guess his play in fourth of SB49 should have secured him a$50 million contract then.

It's funny how everyone loved Butler (and this is not a slight on you OP) but since he didn't sign an extension and we bought another expensive CB, a lot of people are now saying he was always overrated, and we should have traded him for a pick anyway.

Unbelievable.

I haven't seen a tsunami of anti-Butler opinions on this board. I think the OP summed it up nicely. I do think Butler's agent has thrown a few wrenches into the negotiations.

I hope he's back as does everyone else.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Ames' room won't let you see one person squashing another person's foot, which is what we ostensibly see happening from frames 1-3. The physics of deformation don't work that way.

I'm going to agree that we need God's opinion on this for any of us to have certainty. That's certainly an excellent way to conclude something that just doesn't have conclusive evidence, and it's the civil thing to do... LOL good thing there's not a loud bar and a few beers involved, right?

Re: the "physics of deformation" - blow up your third frame, the "smoking gun," and look for any sign of deformation. Fill your screen with it. All you'll see is a foot in front of another foot, no dimple in the "underlying" foot of any kind - which could simply be the foot behind Gabriel's foot. Black cleat, white cleat, no real evidence of impact.

Of course the amateur video shot by Zapruder clearly illustrates... never mind, wrong forum...

 

[zydecochris]

It's pretty straightforward.

Malcolm doesn't have any leverage and his agent is not giving him good advice.

If it's true the NEP offered Malcolm $10m AAV he is a goddamn fool.

Evidently his agent, Derek Simpson, is a Huntsville, AL lawyer who got certified as a NFL player agent as kind of a hobby. His first client to make a NFL team: Malcolm Butler. Huntsville attorney enjoys Super thrill through his Patriots' client, rookie hero Malcolm Butler

Evidently Simpson took on Butler as a client when Butler was a nobody from West Alabama, and Butler has stuck with him. I guess that speaks highly of his loyalty.

However, Simpson seems over his head, at least in his "hobby" role as Butler's agent (in contrast, based on his law firm website, he seems to be a perfectly fine lawyer). IMHO Butler needs a real professional agent instead of someone that has stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.