PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Peppers trade rumor on the radio


Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't know. It's a completely different position. It's not like a different linebacker or line spot. It would be different if he'd tried it and we could judge.

Usually OLB converts are "tweeners". Good rushers who aren't as tall or as devastating, but have the ability to change direction, hit whatever. I am not a football personnel expert.

The tallest linebacker ever, that i can find was Ted Hendricks. He was the same height as Peppers, but at 220 was a lot different body type than a 283 pounder.

Covering running backs, changing direction, getting down for tackles, I think your center of gravity might come into play as well as other natural physics of a players 3-4 inches shorter. Our linebackers are heavier than most, but not 283.

I'd love to have a devastating pass rusher, in fact that is my number #1 desire for the new season.

Other than wishful thinking, what evidence is there that Peppers can make the switch others haven't been able to?


look there are no guarentees. the question is risk vs reward? reward would be a 280 lb OLB that gets at the QB as good as any in the league vs the risk a highly overpaid sub rusher.
 
look there are no guarentees. the question is risk vs reward? reward would be a 280 lb OLB that gets at the QB as good as any in the league vs the risk a highly overpaid sub rusher.

It would definitely be unprecedented.

Tell me why a guy that can rush and has experience at the position would be overpaid compared to Peppers?
 
Last edited:
Not impressed ae all with that ESPN article. He's describing our linebacker corps from 4-5 years ago with everyone able to rush or drop into coverage. I wouldn't say anyone rushes consistently and I'm not real happy with the linebackers pass coverage or defense against quick running backs.


Roman Phifer, good against the run, but not in coverage? What?

This is going to be improved by adding a 283 pound defensive end who's never played linebacker? Hell, let's roll the dice on the whole salary cap on that one.:rolleyes:
 
I don't know. It's a completely different position. It's not like a different linebacker or line spot. It would be different if he'd tried it and we could judge.

Usually OLB converts are "tweeners". Good rushers who aren't as tall or as devastating, but have the ability to change direction, hit whatever. I am not a football personnel expert.

The tallest linebacker ever, that i can find was Ted Hendricks. He was the same height as Peppers, but at 220 was a lot different body type than a 283 pounder.

Covering running backs, changing direction, getting down for tackles, I think your center of gravity might come into play as well as other natural physics of a players 3-4 inches shorter. Our linebackers are heavier than most, but not 283.

I'd love to have a devastating pass rusher, in fact that is my number #1 desire for the new season.

Other than wishful thinking, what evidence is there that Peppers can make the switch others haven't been able to?

You kind of answered your own question regarding evidence. You seem to be focusing on measurables that in the grand scheme of things really mean nothing. Height/weight type stuff is nice to look at for a frame and body type, but it has no real bearing on how a guy plays. Triple Option is dead on about the transition not being the most difficult in the world. He also knows more about football than the other guys posting on this thread combined, so his word is best taken well.

In my mind, there are a few characteristics that a player needs to have to move effectively from a three point to a two point. The first is a football IQ. You have to have the vision and the aptidue to pick up on what is going on around you. To know your assignments, to read multiple keys and be able to recognize misdirection and playfakes. You have to be able to press and run with a tight end while still reading the qb. 43 ends don't have many cues to read and not a ton of assignments. A running joke I had with my ends is that an end is like a linebacker, only taller and stupid. The second most important in my mind is hip fluidity/foot speed. Typically, ends have pretty tight hips which is a major hinderance in the transition. Not to state the obvious, but playing linebacker is all about keeping your shoulders over your knees, staying square to the LOS and fluid in your direction changes. Think of it like the inverse of how a tank moves. The treads stay relatively linear, the turret is constantly on a swivel. Basically, you need to be able to open your hips, drop and accelerate without any wasted motion. You need to be able to move from backpedal to a sidestride to dead sprint without hesitation. You also need to flip your hips over after your blocking read, drive quickly into a zone, plant and accelerate to the ball all within five or six steps, generally speaking. As a rule, you are going to be a step slower than most tailbacks and the only way you will be effective in covering them is by not wasting any motion and gaining acceleration in and out of your breaks (that, and grabbing jersey for a quick tug or holding their arm for a second to screw up their cadence). Linebackers are only as good as their hips. The footspeed of a player is the catalyist for all of this fluidity. Any player that is going to be effective inside the box needs to have tremendous foot speed to be able to wade through traffic, disengage blocks, pickup and cut with a reciever and finally close to the ball to finish the play. While these are two different attributes, they all combine to be the utilized athletic skill. Last, the player needs to have a bit of a nastyness to them. Linebackers need to have a certain demeanor of feeling insulted. They need to really dislike the oponent, take it personally when they are blocked and get to the ball at all costs.

Put these all together and you get a highly effective linebacker in my estimation. In the games I have seen Peppers play, he has shown me rare hips for a player of his size, outstanding footspeed and handwork, enough football IQ to be a captain and diagnose many plays from the backside and a bit of venom to him as well. The fact that he wants to be in a 34 means he understands the game of football. For a linebacker, the 34 is the most challenging and rewarding defense to play in. You truely are the most versatile weapon on the field, you get to play all over the place. In the case of Julius Peppers, the opportunity to play for the greatest 34 mind ever.

RC, if you evaluate a player for a conversion you must follow a simple set of rules. Look at your scheme, look at the player, look at their scheme, look for the synergy and finally evaluate. If one were to focus more on the attributes of the player and less on the attributes of the defense, a better view of the fit would be presented.
 
Actually Peppers cost more. Peppers would be paid $16.683 million while Cassel would be paid 14 million.

You are correct about the tender. That's quite a chunk of money.
 
If Peppers came aboard I wouldn't mind it if all he does is pin his ears back and gets after the QB all the darn time. I know he can do this with the best of them and I highly doubt it matters whether he does so with a hand down or not.

I also know he can set the edge and, frankly, if he never has to cover a TE then that's great because it means he's going in the opposite direction and harassing the heck out of the QB before he is able to complete it to the TE in the first place.
 
If it were as easy as you're making it out to be, the Patriots wouldn't need to go looking for players. They'd already have signed them and converted them.

Sure, because 6-6 290 lbs DE's who can run like a RB are hanging around waiting to be signed. I'm not saying any 4-3 DE can do it; the real freaks can. Adalius & Julius come to mind.
 
Why do you think we waited until Thomas, Vrabel and Colvin made the switch before we acquired them? McGinest played some linebacker at usc and high school too.

You're assuming a 6'7" 283 lb. 4-3 DE will make the switch to OLB successfully in a very short time frame, which he'd need to to justify his salary.

Otherwise you'll have a very expensive situational pass rusher for when we switch to a 4-3, which is not our base.

I keep asking, when has he ever played linebacker and haven't gotten any response yet.

Why? Because they were signed already. When did McGinest play LB? He was a 4-3 DE at USC. High School? Peppers might have played QB in HS, maybe he would be able to play there now.
 
Since the Ravens played a 3-4 I doubt that's true, but I'll just print a blanket statement about his known versatility when we acquired him.


Patriots Close to Signing Adalius Thomas Matt’s Blog


Also, I still think he's much better at OLB.

So you buy the hype, huh? First of all, the Ravens defense is nothing like the Patriots. They may call it a 3-4, but it's a whole different animal. When he did play ILB, it was for very short stints as a gimmick. He was a DE/OLB. What, he lined up at CB so if BB said he was playing him at Corner you would be OK with it because he played 2 downs in Baltimore? His experience as a 2 Gap ILB was zilch.
 
I don't know. It's a completely different position. It's not like a different linebacker or line spot. It would be different if he'd tried it and we could judge.

Usually OLB converts are "tweeners". Good rushers who aren't as tall or as devastating, but have the ability to change direction, hit whatever. I am not a football personnel expert.

The tallest linebacker ever, that i can find was Ted Hendricks. He was the same height as Peppers, but at 220 was a lot different body type than a 283 pounder.

Covering running backs, changing direction, getting down for tackles, I think your center of gravity might come into play as well as other natural physics of a players 3-4 inches shorter. Our linebackers are heavier than most, but not 283.

I'd love to have a devastating pass rusher, in fact that is my number #1 desire for the new season.

Other than wishful thinking, what evidence is there that Peppers can make the switch others haven't been able to?

1. Is he big? Yes.
2. Is he tall? Yes.
3. Is he strong? Yes.
4. Is he an exceptional athlete? Yes.
5. Is he an excellent football player? Yes.
6. Is he flexible and agile enough to bend it and rush? Yes.
7. Is he fast? Oh, hell yes.

I have been watching tape of Peppers and I saw all I need to see. He's got the goods, he just needs some coaching.

If you think BB couldn't turn that guy into an OLB, you don't know football.
 
You kind of answered your own question regarding evidence. You seem to be focusing on measurables that in the grand scheme of things really mean nothing. Height/weight type stuff is nice to look at for a frame and body type, but it has no real bearing on how a guy plays.

Really. I guess that silly thing about cornerbacks of a certain size by BB and Pioli is nonsense.

Hi Mike. I wish the Patriots had drafted Leodis McKelvin or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie with their first pick and then taken a linebacker in the second round. Why does Scott Pioli keep drafting small cornerbacks? Asante Samuel was the only DB who played at the level of a Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy. The current secondary group really concerns me.
John, Boston
Ask Reiss: Patriots Mailbag

A: John, I don’t think the Patriots could have gone wrong by picking a cornerback like McKelvin and Rodgers-Cromartie, but after watching Jerod Mayo in training camp, it’s hard to dispute the pick. He looks like a stud. Scott Pioli, in an interview with Mike Felger of Comcast Sports Net earlier this year, addressed the size issue with cornerbacks, saying that size isn’t everything. Here is what Pioli told Felger: “Part of it is that the bigger a player gets - the taller or longer sometimes a player is - the less fluid they are in changing direction. When you're looking for a corner, they have to be reactive athletes -- to see changes, know what's going on, plant their foot, and drive toward the football. The longer, taller bodies have more difficulty being reactive type athletes."

Ask Reiss: Life without Brady? - The Boston Globe

Wow. That's pretty interesting. I imagine it applies to other players, at least those that have to cover and react.
 
Triple Option is dead on about the transition not being the most difficult in the world. He also knows more about football than the other guys posting on this thread combined, so his word is best taken well.

Stop it, Coach. You'll make me blush.

A running joke I had with my ends is that an end is like a linebacker, only taller and stupid.
When we were playing the 5-2 Monster, the joke was to call the 9 techs OLB's and not DE's. Coaches SWEAR it makes them play faster.:)

Now we're in the Odd Stack and our DE's are DE's and our OLB's are WAY off the ball. I still slip and call the DE's "D Tackles" once in a while.

The second most important in my mind is hip fluidity/foot speed. Typically, ends have pretty tight hips which is a major hinderance in the transition. Not to state the obvious, but playing linebacker is all about keeping your shoulders over your knees, staying square to the LOS and fluid in your direction changes.
Huge.
Linebackers are only as good as their hips.

Same could be said for DB's. Pep's got the hips from what I've seen.


Put these all together and you get a highly effective linebacker in my estimation. In the games I have seen Peppers play, he has shown me rare hips for a player of his size, outstanding footspeed and handwork, enough football IQ to be a captain and diagnose many plays from the backside and a bit of venom to him as well. The fact that he wants to be in a 34 means he understands the game of football.

Dead on.

For a linebacker, the 34 is the most challenging and rewarding defense to play in. You truely are the most versatile weapon on the field, you get to play all over the place. In the case of Julius Peppers, the opportunity to play for the greatest 34 mind ever.

You think it might have a little something to do with the school he played at in college? Maybe he's got an eye on his long term legacy? I'm getting old, so the memory's a little fuzzy but I swear a decent 3-4 OLB went there. Help me out?


Exceptional analysis. Usually I think LB coaches are hammerheads but you seem to see the bigger picture...:D
 
Last edited:
Really. I guess that silly thing about cornerbacks of a certain size by BB and Pioli is nonsense.

Are you seriously comparing Outside Linebackers to Cornerbacks? Please stop.

Are you one of those Mel Kiper geeks that say "well, he's 6-7 and there's never been an OLB over 6-6 so he just can't play there"? Who CARES. Get your head off the stat sheet and watch the man play. If you doubt for an instant that he can play at OLB we can break out the flash cards and teach you the difference between a Screen Pass and a Screen Door.
 
Wow. That's pretty interesting. I imagine it applies to other players, at least those that have to cover and react.

You DO know that for the most part, an OLB covers the Flats, right? He's not running with anyone down the field or playing deep middle for crying out loud.

If BB thought like you, he wouldn't have taken Wilfork because he was a one gapper in College (by the way one gap 4-3 DT to two gap 3-4 NG is probably a tougher transition than DE to OLB)
 
Why? Because they were signed already. When did McGinest play LB? He was a 4-3 DE at USC. High School? Peppers might have played QB in HS, maybe he would be able to play there now.

1992 (Junior): He shared the Pac-10 lead with 16 sacks ... Led the team with 23 tackles for loss (99 yards) ... Earned first-team All-Pac 10 Conference honors ... Named Southern Cal’s Defensive Player of the Year ... Started all season at outside linebacker on the weak side ...

1991 (Sophomore): Played in nine games, starting eight at outside linebacker as a sophomore ...

High School

On the gridiron, he earned All-American recognition from Super Prep, Blue Chip and Tom Lemming magazines and was selected to countless all-star teams, earning all-city, all-state, and all-region honors as a linebacker in 1989 ...

Willie McGinest - Official New England Patriots Biography
 
Really. I guess that silly thing about cornerbacks of a certain size by BB and Pioli is nonsense.





Ask Reiss: Life without Brady? - The Boston Globe

Wow. That's pretty interesting. I imagine it applies to other players, at least those that have to cover and react.


Dude, I drop a 1000 word diatribe explaining the needs of the position, clearly laying out my logic and making a lucid case as to why Peppers is an exception, not the rule. You come back with anecdotal quotes spoken with designed ambiguity and dumming down?

Since you get measurables, why don't you dig out for me the 3-cone of those "undersized" db's. They don't draft height, they draft agility.
 
Are you seriously comparing Outside Linebackers to Cornerbacks? Please stop.

Are you one of those Mel Kiper geeks that say "well, he's 6-7 and there's never been an OLB over 6-6 so he just can't play there"? Who CARES. Get your head off the stat sheet and watch the man play. If you doubt for an instant that he can play at OLB we can break out the flash cards and teach you the difference between a Screen Pass and a Screen Door.

Why not actually read what he says? He doesn't say this only applies to cornerbacks, does he?

Part of it is that the bigger a player gets - the taller or longer sometimes a player is - the less fluid they are in changing direction.

Maybe linebackers don't have to be reactive or change direction, I don't know, I'm not a football expert.
 
Last edited:
Stop it, Coach. You'll make me blush.


When we were playing the 5-2 Monster, the joke was to call the 9 techs OLB's and not DE's. Coaches SWEAR it makes them play faster.:)

Now we're in the Odd Stack and our DE's are DE's and our OLB's are WAY off the ball. I still slip and call the DE's "D Tackles" once in a while.



You think it might have a little something to do with the school he played at in college? Maybe he's got an eye on his long term legacy? I'm getting old, so the memory's a little fuzzy but I swear a decent 3-4 OLB went there. Help me out?


Exceptional analysis. Usually I think LB coaches are hammerheads but you seem to see the bigger picture...:D

Funny you should mention the brickheads coaching LB's. I thought not having a crew cut would have disqualified me when I got the offer. The only reason I was any good at the position in college (5'10 Mike, 4.8 on a really good day) was that I was so into the game and such a technique nerd that I was playing a step faster than the offense.

How you like the Odd? Thinking about putting it in for some test runs during some early practices with my flock of meatheads.

Towards the Pep wanting to play OLB, he just gives me the vibe that he respects the sport. I think he understands what the position entails and just wants to elevate his game. Of course we're bais, but if I had the chance to play LB for (hell spend 15 minutes watching tape with) Belichick before I run out of time, I would jump all over it. I'll check out who played at UNC though...can't pull anyone off of my head, but there's gotta be someone there.
 
Are you seriously comparing Outside Linebackers to Cornerbacks? Please stop.

Are you one of those Mel Kiper geeks that say "well, he's 6-7 and there's never been an OLB over 6-6 so he just can't play there"? Who CARES. Get your head off the stat sheet and watch the man play. If you doubt for an instant that he can play at OLB we can break out the flash cards and teach you the difference between a Screen Pass and a Screen Door.

The irony of your post being that you yourself talked about the hips in an earlier post and that hips are one of the things scouts look at with cornerbacks. Rather than dismissing out of hand what RayClay is saying, perhaps you could take a moment to think first.

Whether you like it or not, the Patriots look for specific things in their players. This does not mean that there is no allowance for exceptions. It does mean that they have a basic range of player. Just as a Levon Kirkland or a Brandon Jacobs could succeed at their respective positions despite being oversized, it's possible that Peppers could make it at OLB despite not fitting the profile. He is, after all, a tremendous athlete. However, despite your insistence, possible does not equal definite.

The reality is that Peppers is 6-6 and weighs in at over 280 pounds. Vrabel is 6-4, 251. Thomas is 6-2, 270. McGinest is/was 6-5, 270. TBC is/was 6-2, 254. As you can see, Peppers would be oversized compared to those who've come before him. He hasn't played the position in the 7 years he's been in the NFL. He's now 29 years old and would need to overcome the instincts and reactions of a DE that have been driven into him for his entire professional career.

Just as not all defensive tackles can play defensive end, and not all safeties can play cornerback, not all defensive ends can play linebacker. Asking Peppers to do it is an expensive gamble, because he's not strong enough to hold up as a 3-4 DE if the experiment at linebacker fails.
 
I fail to see the problem with him being tall. Do they not make pants his size or something? When will the world stop discriminating against tall people?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
2024 Patriots Undrafted Free Agents – FULL LIST
MORSE: Thoughts on Patriots Day 3 Draft Results
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots Head Coach Jerod Mayo Post-Draft Press Conference
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
Back
Top