Patriots Offense giving off a "tell" ?

[PATSNUTme]

Last night on the late edition of NEST, Steve DeOssie showed that the Jest and the Colts knew excectly what play was being called and where it is being run.

The ones that he showed were running plays with Maroney. It shows the middle LB signaling to the SS. Then the SS blows into the "hole" that Maroney is running and nails him before he can take a second step.

DeOssie didn't know who is giving the "tell". Brady or Maroney or someone on the OL.

Normally on NEST there is very little substancial but this was informative. It will be interesting to see if the Patriots get that squared away.

 

[Pats726]

Last night on the late edition of NEST, Steve DeOssie showed that the Jest and the Colts knew excectly what play was being called and where it is being run.

The ones that he showed were running plays with Maroney. It shows the middle LB signaling to the SS. Then the SS blows into the "hole" that Maroney is running and nails him before he can take a second step.

DeOssie didn't know who is giving the "tell". Brady or Maroney or someone on the OL.

Normally on NEST there is very little substancial but this was informative. It will be interesting to see if the Patriots get that squared away.

Yes...I missed that but these subtle signs that good defenders can read...is what and how good defenses operate...small subtle things..which is why switchhing from one end position to another is hard..why the Pats running game may at times seem to be running in cement.. Might this not be Maroney..or?? Interesting though..,seems like many times he's caught in the backfield..

 

[RayClay]

Interesting. We do have some young linemen.

Maroney needs to work on hitting the hole quicker, though IMO.

Watch Dillon. Not a criticism really, Maroney is more effective when he gets going and cuts, while Dillon might be the best going at making something out of a small opening, though he doesn't have the speed he used to.

 

[BradyManny]

I wouldn't say it's as much a "tell" as that it's clear based on personnel and formation whether we are running pass or a run. Deception hasn't been a part of the Pats offense the past year and a half - it's more or less "this is what the D is giving us, so this is what we're going to do" and then it comes down to execution. Take for instance that fact that Brady excels in shotgun with 4 wide spread out - there's no deception there, the D knows its a pass, but they normally simply can't stop him. More often than not, we execute, lately we haven't.

I can't lie, I like seeing play action and draw plays and things of that sort, but that's really not the Patriots style. In general, I feel fans like me who haven't played organized football make too much of deception - execution is what matters most. Also, I'd say there's a difference between deception and unpredictablity - Charlie Weis wasn't a deceiver as much as he was unpredictable. I think that's part of what the O is missing right now.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Last night on the late edition of NEST, Steve DeOssie showed that the Jest and the Colts knew excectly what play was being called and where it is being run.

The ones that he showed were running plays with Maroney. It shows the middle LB signaling to the SS. Then the SS blows into the "hole" that Maroney is running and nails him before he can take a second step.

DeOssie didn't know who is giving the "tell". Brady or Maroney or someone on the OL.

Normally on NEST there is very little substancial but this was informative. It will be interesting to see if the Patriots get that squared away.

It's either a tell or the formation/personel indicates which play is likely to be run. I buy it. Maroney takes a lot of deep handoffs and it was only a matter of time before other teams started run-blitzing (like Sanders did in the Indy game). I think the Pats need to do a better job of self-scouting (and I think they will).

Regards,
Chris

 

[PATSNUTme]

It's either a tell or the formation/personel indicates which play is likely to be run. I buy it. Maroney takes a lot of deep handoffs and it was only a matter of time before other teams started run-blitzing (like Sanders did in the Indy game). I think the Pats need to do a better job of self-scouting (and I think they will).

Regards,
Chris

Chris,

Both you and BradyManning need to see the tape that I saw last night in slow mo. The MLB signals the SS and the SS blows the exact gap that the play is designed to run. No hesitiation at all.

It's not that they are running a run blitz because the formation and personnel indicate run. This was not a guess. If the SS blew the gap and then looked for the ballcarrier that would have been a run blitz. This was the exact gap and they were on Maroney before he could take a second step.

At the speed the SS was blowing the gap, if it was one gap over Maroney would have blown right by him for a big gain.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Chris,

Both you and BradyManning need to see the tape that I saw last night in slow mo. The MLB signals the SS and the SS blows the exact gap that the play is designed to run. No hesitiation at all.

It's not that they are running a run blitz because the formation and personnel indicate run. This was not a guess. If the SS blew the gap and then looked for the ballcarrier that would have been a run blitz. This was the exact gap and they were on Maroney before he could take a second step.

At the speed the SS was blowing the gap, if it was one gap over Maroney would have blown right by him for a big gain.

Either it's a tell or they are going to the well too often, running the same play over and over and the personel/formation gives it away. In either case, it's a poor reflection on the Pats' coaching.

Regards,
Chris

 

[denverpatsfan]

Could not agree more. Without watching the games in slowmo on TIVO you can tell the defenses know what is coming and react accordingly. It seemed the same for the Denver game even though we chalked it up to their defense being fast and stacking the box.

Hopefully this will be corrected this week, or it's only going to get worse.

 

[Willie55]

I noticed earlier in the year, on running plays, Matt Light would go down into a three point stance but on passing plays he wouldn't. He would just crouch down and not put his hand on the ground. I'm not sure if he's still doing it or not, I haven't payed attention to it lately. I never noticed it prior to this season.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

I noticed earlier in the year, on running plays, Matt Light would go down into a three point stance but on passing plays he wouldn't. He would just crouch down and not put his hand on the ground. I'm not sure if he's still doing it or not, I haven't payed attention to it lately. I never noticed it prior to this season.

Slightly off topic...I remember reading that DL-men are taught to look at the knuckles of the OL-man opposite them in a 3pt stance. If the knuckles are white, that means a lot of weight is forward and they're getting ready to drive-block for a run. If the knuckles aren't white, the bulk of their weight is back and they're getting ready to pull up and drop back into pass blocking. The lesson to OL-men: Tape your knuckles!

Regards,
Chris

 

[PATSNUTme]

Actually most teams do that. If it's a either run/pass the line is in 3 point. If it's a pass/screen/draw they will be in a 2 point stance. Although they can do any of that from any stance.

Naturally, many OL's will "lean" forward more if it's a running play. But, that doesn't say where the run is coming.

And to address the pulling question. Yes the Patriots do pull the guards and even the center pulls on certain plays. They don't seem to trap as much as in the old days but they will bring the end or tackle over for the now famous "wham" block, which is a trap.

 

[captain stone]

I wouldn't say it's as much a "tell" as that it's clear based on personnel and formation whether we are running pass or a run. Deception hasn't been a part of the Pats offense the past year and a half - it's more or less "this is what the D is giving us, so this is what we're going to do" and then it comes down to execution. Take for instance that fact that Brady excels in shotgun with 4 wide spread out - there's no deception there, the D knows its a pass, but they normally simply can't stop him. More often than not, we execute, lately we haven't.

I can't lie, I like seeing play action and draw plays and things of that sort, but that's really not the Patriots style. In general, I feel fans like me who haven't played organized football make too much of deception - execution is what matters most. Also, I'd say there's a difference between deception and unpredictablity - Charlie Weis wasn't a deceiver as much as he was unpredictable. I think that's part of what the O is missing right now.

Bingo.

Execution does matter, but so does deception, now more than ever. Teams, and talent, are too evenly matched. An offense must be able to both run and pass from the same formation. TB, to his discredit, pays only lip service, at best, to play-action. The pats' offense is all about execution; unfortunately, whenever execution is compromised (e.g., due to poor weather/field conditions), the value of deception increases. I find it sadly disquieting that such intelligent men as BB and TB do not embrace this facet of offensive game-planning philosophy.

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past, are doomed to repeat them. If it's more of the same old, same old, on Sunday, then this season is, truly, toast.

 

[lobster]

One tell I've noticed - if the Pat's spend a lot of time in the huddle it's a pass, if not it's a run. As the new receivers figure out the play book it may not work as well. Also you can watch who Brady talks to in the huddle, it can mean a play is going their way.

Charlie Weis seemed to mess with the Defense's minds by intentionally creating a pattern so when the Defense starts to react to the pattern, he would try to use that to hit them for a big gain. I would think being a top Offensive Coordinator takes enormous skill, some of which isn't appreciated by the fans.

 

[Water Boy]

Last night on the late edition of NEST, Steve DeOssie showed that the Jest and the Colts knew excectly what play was being called and where it is being run.

The ones that he showed were running plays with Maroney. It shows the middle LB signaling to the SS. Then the SS blows into the "hole" that Maroney is running and nails him before he can take a second step.

DeOssie didn't know who is giving the "tell". Brady or Maroney or someone on the OL.

Normally on NEST there is very little substancial but this was informative. It will be interesting to see if the Patriots get that squared away.

Bob Sanders killed our running game in the 2nd half against the colts. I could not believe how fast he closed in the the correct run gap even when he was 10 plus yards off of the line of scrimage.

 

[363839]

It would be GREATLY appreciated by many of us if we had one.

Is there an offensive coordinater you like, NEM?

I mean besides yourself.

 

[363839]

BTW, what's your opinion of McDaniels and his play calling thus far?

My opinion is that if the QB could hit his recievers the OC would be a lot more succesfull.
I've already ranted about this on the planet. That is, about TB and his inabilty to throw accurate passes. I'm nearly convinced he's hurt and I think it's his throwing shoulder.
I'm not ready to come down on McDaniels, yet. Sure there have been some questionable calls but the guy is only in his rookie season.

But I am gonna keep my eye on him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Bingo.

Execution does matter, but so does deception, now more than ever. Teams, and talent, are too evenly matched. An offense must be able to both run and pass from the same formation. TB, to his discredit, pays only lip service, at best, to play-action. The pats' offense is all about execution; unfortunately, whenever execution is compromised (e.g., due to poor weather/field conditions), the value of deception increases. I find it sadly disquieting that such intelligent men as BB and TB do not embrace this facet of offensive game-planning philosophy.

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past, are doomed to repeat them. If it's more of the same old, same old, on Sunday, then this season is, truly, toast.

One of the PFW guys, think it was Paul Perillo, was on WEEI today. He was talking about what a typical reaction it is for fans to blame coaching or play calling in any sport when a team loses. When 9 out of 10 times it's execution or the lack thereof that ultimately results in the loss. It's just a cop out to assume another play would have worked if the odds are they don't execute that correctly either.

He was also talking about the play action as an example of a play that they are struggling to execute. The timing just hasn't been there yet this season. Add to that the play action won't fly in the face of a committed pass rush, and Tom has certainly been facing a lot of that lately. He doesn't have the two or three extra seconds required to sell it when defenses simply aren't buying. So running it lately just waste's valuable time to see the field, go through his progressions, he's in the tackle box so getting rid of the ball is extremely problematic and he's getting sacked enough without sending out invitations. Hence the absence of a lot of play action.

 

[captain stone]

One of the PFW guys, think it was Paul Perillo, was on WEEI today. He was talking about what a typical reaction it is for fans to blame coaching or play calling in any sport when a team loses. When 9 out of 10 times it's execution or the lack thereof that ultimately results in the loss. It's just a cop out to assume another play would have worked if the odds are they don't execute that correctly either.

He was also talking about the play action as an example of a play that they are struggling to execute. The timing just hasn't been there yet this season. Add to that the play action won't fly in the face of a committed pass rush, and Tom has certainly been facing a lot of that lately. He doesn't have the two or three extra seconds required to sell it when defenses simply aren't buying. So running it lately just waste's valuable time to see the field, go through his progressions, he's in the tackle box so getting rid of the ball is extremely problematic and he's getting sacked enough without sending out invitations. Hence the absence of a lot of play action.

Why wouldn't the defense buy when TB sells PlayAction? The pats are 7th in the league in rushing ypg, 10th in ypc. If not now, then when? If TB is facing a committed pass rush, then throw more screens, run more draws, etc. Just don't stand there like Bledsoe, and wait for the inevitable hit. The real copout is by the PFW guy for apologizing for the shyte playbook.

 

[RayClay]

I don't think Brady's arm is hurt because I've seen him throw very long with good velocity, often into the stands.

Baseball pitchers get out of synch with their mechanics.

He has had to adjust to new receivers, pull the ball down with some blown routes and he's thrown some INTs.

I think the Testaverde move is to be a De facto QB coach.

It saves him from having to hire an actual QB coach and admitting he made a mistake and undermining his boy wonder Skippy the Coach.

Just my take.

 

[363839]

I don't think Brady's arm is hurt because I've seen him throw very long with good velocity, often into the stands.

Baseball pitchers get out of synch with their mechanics.

He has had to adjust to new receivers, pull the ball down with some blown routes and he's thrown some INTs.

I think the Testaverde move is to be a De facto QB coach.

It saves him from having to hire an actual QB coach and admitting he made a mistake and undermining his boy wonder Skippy the Coach.

Just my take.

That may be true but I have seen many passes by TB that land several yards before the reciever or the the receiver has to catch it on his shoestrings. Even that pass to Faulk at the end of the Colts game that was tipped for an int was thrown too high. Faulk was wide open on that play and maybe he should have caught it but the throw could have been lower.
I just have never seen him trow this erratic before.
NEM you may be right about the too much poosay comment but I'm sure he's been getting that since SB36 and he went on to SB38 and 39.