OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.

[The Gr8est]

The Say Hey Kid verses Teddy Ballgame…….never saw them play live, met Ted a few years before his son froze his head.

Just checking, but did anyone meet Ted AFTER his son froze his head?

 

[jmt57]

One issue I have with these debates is the inevitable 'if (insert name of older athlete) played today, he could not compete because he would be (insert objection: not tall/strong/fast/quick/smart enough).

What those arguments miss is if yesterday's athlete had all of today's tools in their arsenal, they would be that much taller/stronger/faster/quicker/smarter than they were back in the day.

The best way to make a 'best ever' comparison is to avoid comparing athletes from different eras. Instead, compare them against their peers.

Taking football out of the equation how much better was Bobby Orr against his peers, versus Wayne Gretzky against his peers, versus Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull against their peers, etc.

If one is going to use the 'today's athletes are bigger/faster/stronger' argument, then by that logic then whomever is playing at the present moment is the greatest ever. Five years from now those athletes will be the greatest ever, as will those in ten years, twenty years, and so on. In other words the 'greatest ever' is no more than last year's all star team.

Sorry, but to me 'greatest ever' is far more than that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Carlton makes my top five. I lived in Philadelphia in 1972 when the Philadelphia Phillies went 59-97. Steve Carlton won 27 games that season with a 1.97 ERA.

Think about that. That was a terrible baseball team playing on a circular concrete pool table.

Carlton went 27-10, 1.97 ERA, 310 strikeouts in 346 innings. I think we went to 15 of those games.

No pitcher in the 20th or 21st Centuries won as a high a percentage of his team's games at 45.8%.

Steve Carlton was a quirky introvert which hurt his historical significance, but he had the best slider in the history of the game.

He was one of the greatest no question.

Who do you yank out of my top 5 in favor of Lefty?

 

[goheels22002]

He was one of the greatest no question.

Who do you yank out of my top 5 in favor of Lefty?

I don't know. Probably Maddox because he pitched for the Braves. But no reason, really, to drop one over the others.

Clemens would be #1 if he hadn't been such a jerk about the steroid use. He should have owned up to it and made the case that all the hitters he was facing were juicing. Clemens blew it with the way he behaved when faced with overwhelming physical evidence uncovered in the Mitchell Report. At least he gave Peyton Manning ideas about how to use your wife as a scapegoat for taking PEDs.

And the other interesting thing is that there are several young pitchers today who have the potential to be in that group. Kershaw, Greinke, Felix Hernandez, and maybe Bumgarner have the early career numbers to get to an elite place in baseball history.

I think 250 career wins is the new 300 given the way pitching staffs are used in the modern era.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

One issue I have with these debates is the inevitable 'if (insert name of older athlete) played today, he could not compete because he would be (insert objection: not tall/strong/fast/quick/smart enough).

What those arguments miss is if yesterday's athlete had all of today's tools in their arsenal, they would be that much taller/stronger/faster/quicker/smarter than they were back in the day.

The best way to make a 'best ever' comparison is to avoid comparing athletes from different eras. Instead, compare them against their peers.

Taking football out of the equation how much better was Bobby Orr against his peers, versus Wayne Gretzky against his peers, versus Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull against their peers, etc.

If one is going to use the 'today's athletes are bigger/faster/stronger' argument, then by that logic then whomever is playing at the present moment is the greatest ever. Five years from now those athletes will be the greatest ever, as will those in ten years, twenty years, and so on. In other words the 'greatest ever' is no more than last year's all star team.

Sorry, but to me 'greatest ever' is far more than that.

i get that, but i can't ignore the talent discrepancy between 60s vs. 80/90s. it's not fair for current players who plays against better(both quantity and quality) talents overall.

 

[1960Pats]

The thread title says BOSTON GOAT.

Actually @Triumph it was @robertweathers who read the meaning of my post correctly. I was making a case for Boston athletes who were the GOAT in their sport.

I was also going to put Rocky Marciano in there but I didn't want to throw the "Ali was the greatest human who ever lived" train off the tracks.

 

[SilverSeven]

Garrincha. Undebatable.

Certainly debatable. Garrincha (along with George Best) is basically the Mickey Mantle of soccer. Tremendous ability and talent but personal demons and injuries got in the way. As much as I love the Mick I can't honestly crown him as the best baseball player ever. They were both tragic folk heroes in a way however.

I don't honestly think you can crown one single greatest soccer player ever. The ones in the discussion are

-Messi
-Maradona
-Pele
-Di Stefano
-Best
-Garrincha
-Platini
-Beckenbauer
-Cruyff

 

[Ivan]

Certainly debatable. Garrincha (along with George Best) is basically the Mickey Mantle of soccer. Tremendous ability and talent but personal demons and injuries got in the way. As much as I love the Mick I can't honestly crown him as the best baseball player ever. They were both tragic folk heroes in a way however.

I don't honestly think you can crown one single greatest soccer player ever. The ones in the discussion are

-Messi
-Maradona
-Pele
-Di Stefano
-Best
-Garrincha
-Platini
-Beckenbauer

Great work

I applaud the absence of Christian Ronaldo from your list.

 

[Ivan]

Red Sox -Ted Williams

Celtics- Larry Bird

Bruins- Bobby Orr

Patriots- Tom Brady


Overall Boston GOAT -


Wait for it...............









TOM BRADY

 

[SilverSeven]

Great work

I applaud the absence of Christian Ronaldo from your list.

It took quite a bit of effort to leave him and fat Ronaldo off the list, but I decided to cut it off at a certain point.

 

[drewskie]

Certainly debatable. Garrincha (along with George Best) is basically the Mickey Mantle of soccer. Tremendous ability and talent but personal demons and injuries got in the way. As much as I love the Mick I can't honestly crown him as the best baseball player ever. They were both tragic folk heroes in a way however.

I don't honestly think you can crown one single greatest soccer player ever. The ones in the discussion are

-Messi
-Maradona
-Pele
-Di Stefano
-Best
-Garrincha
-Platini
-Beckenbauer

Id add Cruyff too (most consider the 5 greatest ever not including Messi would be Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Distefano/Beckanbauer).

 

[SilverSeven]

Id add Cruyff too (most consider the 5 greatest ever not including Messi would be Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Distefano/Beckanbauer).

Agreed, I feel ashamed for leaving Cruyff off my list. Purely a brain-fart on my part. On top of that I think Cruyff had the biggest impact on soccer (greater than Pele, Maradona, Messi) of any figure when you consider the influence he had as both a player and manager.

I'll edit my original post to fix that oversight.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Certainly debatable. Garrincha (along with George Best) is basically the Mickey Mantle of soccer. Tremendous ability and talent but personal demons and injuries got in the way. As much as I love the Mick I can't honestly crown him as the best baseball player ever. They were both tragic folk heroes in a way however.

I don't honestly think you can crown one single greatest soccer player ever. The ones in the discussion are

-Messi
-Maradona
-Pele
-Di Stefano
-Best
-Garrincha
-Platini
-Beckenbauer
-Cruyff

Thanks! True about injuries and demons..."G" could uniquely kick the ball such that it snaked its way between players (and into the goal). My GOAT's are strictly based on who I would pick first to start a team, so beyond individual talent, there's intangibles & character too.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Actually @Triumph it was @robertweathers who read the meaning of my post correctly. I was making a case for Boston athletes who were the GOAT in their sport.

I was also going to put Rocky Marciano in there but I didn't want to throw the "Ali was the greatest human who ever lived" train off the tracks.

Among Ali's most thrilling personal moments were when he got to meet his childhood idols, Marciano and Louis. Muhammad's public persona and private self were distinctly different.

 

[Boomer B]

1. Tom Brady - he plays the toughest position in all of sports and is tied with only 2 others for championships won. He will also be in the top 2 or 3 statistically when he retires.

2. Bobby Orr - he completely redefined a whole position in his sport. Arguably the greatest hockey player ever. Bonus points for having the greatest sports photo ever (flying after the goal) which hangs in my office.

3. Ted Williams - probably the best pure hitter ever. Maybe would be higher if he had won championships.

4. Bill Russell - amazing career and 11 championships is unbelievable. Would he have won 11 in a 30 team league? Not a chance.

5. Larry Bird - it was between Larry and David Ortiz for number 5. Went with Bird. He's a lot like Brady. Highly competitive and clutch.

6. David Ortiz
7. Raymond Bourque
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Pedro Martinez
10. John Hannah

 

[nabwong]

Competition improves every decade. It's a lot harder to dominate now. If you look like you remotely are, like brady, mj etc, then you're one hell of a player. No offense to the old guys but competition just wasn't as high as now. And that's why it's tough to compare. But even Heath Evans said it, the next dynasty is the best dynasty. And furthering that, The next goat is the best goat.

 

[goheels22002]

Red Sox -Ted Williams

Celtics- Larry Bird

Bruins- Bobby Orr

Patriots- Tom Brady

Overall Boston GOAT -

Wait for it............... TOM BRADY

Red Sox - David Ortiz - 3 World Series championships
Bill Russell - 11 NBA championships
Bobby Orr - no argument there
Patriots - Tom Brady - 4 Super Bowl championships, 10 AFC games

 

[patsfan13]

Red Sox - David Ortiz - 3 World Series championships
Bill Russell - 10 NBA championships
Bobby Orr - no argument there
Patriots - Tom Brady - 4 Super Bowl championships, 10 AFC games

Russell 11 NBA championships.

 

[Off The Grid]

I love this debate because there is no right answer.

I put Russell ahead of MJ because he was A) the MJ of defense, an excellent passer and the GoAT rebounder in history and B) To win 11 championships in 13 years is incomprehensible. You can't quantify it statistically. You just have to believe that the man figured out how to win games and championships at a level that 99.9999% of the players in NBA never could. Jordan got close. Then Magic/Larry and Jabbar.

Beautifully put!!

I for one reject the entire premise of ranking Players from different Eras individually.

I put Russell and Jordan in the Top Tier...and that's good enough for me.

But your Arguments in favor of Russell are beautifully succinct: Defense is vastly underrated by the vast majority of Fans, most'f whom continue to overlook the obvious: Defense is 50% of the Game. Defense is fully as responsible for producing Championships as Offense is. But Defense is hard to quantify, so the Ignorant Masses ignore it completely, while give short shrift to Passing and Rebounding.

The gutters are littered with the Corpses of deep, talented Teams that never won squat over the Decades.

The Celts didn't win a single Championship before Russell's arrival, and then ~ as you pointed out ~ won an unfathomable 11 Championships in 13 Years. And they might've won all 13 if Russell hadn't been injured back in the 1958 Finals and saddled with a Rookie Head Coach in 1967.

 

[scout]

Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Lenny Wilkens, Baylor, Maravich, and a few others might be competitive. But looking back at some of the 1950s-1960s all-star line-ups has lots of guys who would be journeymen at best in the modern NBA.

Wow, "competitive". Seriously?