Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

It’s wrong to say he didn’t adjust. He just didn’t make the adjustment that you want.

Again, if he believes butler is unprepared to play, physically, mentally or emotionally, it’s like suggesting since things aren’t working he should try McCourty at DT.
Thr bottom line is on that day butler wasn’t the player who played all season, and he all but admits that himself.
You can’t view the decision based upon how butler played all year when the man making the decision felt that was nowhere near the level of play he would get, which the only thing that is blatantly obvious about what happened is that is what he believed.

That's horsesh*t! You still sticking by that? The guy thought he was gonna play. Bill made a drastic move and it didn't pay off. It's still a bizarre move.

 

[Simpelton]

The Vikings are different outside their dome.

So? They were still the #1 or #2 defense in the NFL and we were... very much not the #1 or #2 defense.

Listen putting butler in doesn't hurt. He's a lot better than what i was watching the whole game. All you needed was one bit defensive play here or there.

And there's no guarantee at all that Butler would have made one bit defensive play. And I disagree, you can get great defensive plays on first and second down, and if Foles burns you on third down it doesn't matter. We needed CONSISTENT defensive plays, or a particularly lucky play.

I don't think the odds of getting either from a sick man who doesn't know the game plan are particularly high.

In my mind that whole Superbowl is a bit of a write off because the Eagles had such a sense of destiny behind them that it was going to take a major act of God to stop them. The momentum behind the Eagles was HUGE. It would have taken a miracle to stop them, and when they got the strip sack at the 2 minutes we were fresh out of miracles.

Kinda feel like it's the same argument as the whole Grady Little thing in the 2003 ALCS. That 2003 bullpen was just bad, and had been used hard all series, how hard is it to imagine that Aaron Boone would have hit that same home run against the bullpen? Trying to squeeze another inning out of the best starting pitcher in the world in game 7 is no less insane than giving the ball to the 2003 bullpen circus, but because it doesn't work, all these historic revisionists make it THE WORST DECISION EVARRRRRR.

Clearly because the decision resulted in pain, we should have made the other decision. It's an emotional thought process that has only a very tenuous connection to reality.

I dunno, I get really tired of sharing forums with that mentality. Weighing decisions that didn't work against the realistic chance that another decision might have worked is an exercise that requires a lot of objectivity, and "fans" and "objectivity" are a bit of an oil-and-water thing. The hyper-reactive sports media doesn't help either.

 

[Ring 6]

You don’t know that he wouldn’t have helped. This is the problem, you assume whatever is going to benefit your point of view.

No that is not true. I am not supporting any point of view. I am describing how decision making happened.
Maybe he would have helped but belichick was convinced he wouldn’t. I mean he is paid to make that decision. Clearly he didn’t just act on a whim. If he believed butler was his worst option why would he put him in?
Think about that. The defense is struggling so after deciding butler wasn’t ready to play and is the worst option I gave I’ll just throw him in there because what to hell.
He is making adjustments to try to get better play but the one you reference was one he felt wouldnt help. .

Factually we know that what we did do completely failed. Whatever your opinion of Butler, he’s still our second best CB, it puts worse CB’s on the sideline and gets everyone in their regular position, which is something that got us to 13-3 and a Super Bowl appearance. The worst case scenario with that is equal to what we got.

And that is hindsight.
Again, the one thing we know without a doubt was that on that day B.B. felt butler was not the same guy who played all year and butler has pretty much admitted it.
Pretending he was just turns this into a passing match which I don’t want to do.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

So? They were still the #1 or #2 defense in the NFL and we were... very much not the #1 or #2 defense.



And there's no guarantee at all that Butler would have made one bit defensive play. And I disagree, you can get great defensive plays on first and second down, and if Foles burns you on third down it doesn't matter. We needed CONSISTENT defensive plays, or a particularly lucky play.

I don't think the odds of getting either from a sick man who doesn't know the game plan are particularly high.

In my mind that whole Superbowl is a bit of a write off because the Eagles had such a sense of destiny behind them that it was going to take a major act of God to stop them. The momentum behind the Eagles was HUGE. It would have taken a miracle to stop them, and when they got the strip sack at the 2 minutes we were fresh out of miracles.

Kinda feel like it's the same argument as the whole Grady Little thing in the 2003 ALCS. That 2003 bullpen was just bad, and had been used hard all series, how hard is it to imagine that Aaron Boone would have hit that same home run against the bullpen? Trying to squeeze another inning out of the best starting pitcher in the world in game 7 is no less insane than giving the ball to the 2003 bullpen circus, but because it doesn't work, all these historic revisionists make it THE WORST DECISION EVARRRRRR.

I dunno, I get really tired of sharing forums with that mentality. Weighing decisions that didn't work against the realistic chance that another decision might have worked is an exercise that requires a lot of objectivity, and "fans" and "objectivity" are a bit of an oil-and-water thing. The hyper-reactive sports media doesn't help either.

It's still bad decision no matter how much you try to defend it. There was no adjustments. His defense was getting shredded. The guy was in uniform on the sidelines and he did t even look once in his direction.

As great as the Vikings defense was I think the eagles caught some breaks when Rhodes was not 100 percent. He's a big part of their defense.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

I think butler deserves the benefit of the doubt in playing. The guy won you a damn super bowl and he clearly wanted to play. To me it seems like there was something more behind the scenes. You can start him and if he keeps sucking than you get him out the game. It clearly didn't affect him getting a contract and i hope he plays well except against us.

 

[captain stone]

Dont get why everyone keeps referring to it all as a mystery. BB said it out loud, Butler repeated it in the last two days at least a dozen times. Butler took himself out of the gameplan thanks to bad practices before the SB. That is on himself and he also knows as much as the tweet shows.

If you cant manage to ****ing focus for your last game with a team in a SB then dont be surprised if your ass gets benched.

Thanks for the input, Bill.

 

[captain stone]

...These words, from butler himself, say he wasn’t mentally ready...

And Jonny Badmostly and Glitch Richards were ready?

 

[Ring 6]

And Jonny Badmostly and Glitch Richards were ready?

Look those were the options. If butler had broken his leg in warmups we’d be lamenting that he couldn’t play. According to belichick he couldn’t play, it’s just a matter of people crying about it instead of recognizing there is an issue even if they can’t see what the issue is.

I mean do you really think belichick just decided on a whim with nothing causing the decision to move butler from #2 corner to #6 corner?

 

[Simpelton]

Look those were the options. If butler had broken his leg in warmups we’d be lamenting that he couldn’t play. According to belichick he couldn’t play, it’s just a matter of people crying about it instead of recognizing there is an issue even if they can’t see what the issue is.

I mean do you really think belichick just decided on a whim with nothing causing the decision to move butler from #2 corner to #6 corner?

Exactly. People aren't processing this rationally. They've made up their mind that the Superbowl came down to whether or not one player played, based on an assumption (or should I call it a DELUSION?) that a guy WE KNOW DAMN WELL was sick and off his game, and had been playing poorly for weeks even before he reported to hospital the week before the Superbowl, would somehow be 100% and win the game for us.

This is exactly like the Grady Little thing. The difference is that Belichick has a much longer track record of making right decisions before the "big mistake." There is no actual logic behind this mentality, just a combination of anguish and hindsight and misplaced anger, and perhaps a bit of goading from the hyperactive media.

People are not thinking. They are emoting. And I get tired sometimes of fans who can't tell the difference between the two.

 

[Simpelton]

Here's the deal at the end of the day.

The only person in the world who actually knows exactly what's going on, who had his finger on the pulse of the team and whose literal job is to set that team up to win the Superbowl, and a guy who we should have ever reason to place our faith in him that he knows what he's doing, decided that Butler was not an option. He doesn't give us a reason, which is his perogative.

But not telling us the reason directly is all the ammunition these GALLOPING MORONS need to conclude that there in fact was no reason. Which by "logic" clearly means that Butler was fine, and clearly, obviously meant that Belichick held him out of the game for the craps and giggles, entirely for the sake of his own personal amusement, because **** superbowl rings, amirite?

because that's clearly the kind of person he has demonstrated himself to be over a very long history with the team.

The really sad part is that a lot of these people are better educated and smarter than I am. I'm just a humble Simpelton after all. It's not like these guys don't have brains. It's that for whatever reason, they're not USING them.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

(Not looking to rehash the whole thing -- enough deceased equines have been flogged already -- just passing along info.)

In the wake of Butler's SI interview this week, Giardi texted a couple of current Patriots about it. Not naming names (of course). One said "we wished it could have worked out better, but he should have focused on what mattered those two weeks" and the other said "we didn't like the decision but it wasn't without merit".

NFL Rumors: Patriots Players Defend Decision To Bench Malcolm Butler

 

[maust]

(Not looking to rehash the whole thing -- enough deceased equines have been flogged already -- just passing along info.)

All good, if you didn't someone else would have 'cause...

 

[maineman209]

Honestly, I wonder more about what might've happened had Jon Jones been healthy.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think it's pretty clear by now Malcolm was not prepared to play in the SB. He and his teammates have both said this.

He did something that clearly was a non-negotiable no-no with BB.

After being here for 4 years, I find it hard to believe Malcolm doesn't know what he did wrong.

The question is could have a 1/2 ready Malcolm been better than Badman and Richards?

 

[1960Pats]

The Butler Did It has turned into What Did the Butler Do. I miss the good old days.

 

[Triumph]

We still had McCourty.

 

[maineman209]

The question is could have a 1/2 ready Malcolm be better than Badman and Richards?

It seemed to me that the Pats were committed to running a 2-corner, 3-safety/4-safety strategy in the secondary regardless. Had there been a more effective ILB on the roster in addition to Van Noy/Roberts, the personnel strategy might have been different (and likely would've been different all season).

As things stood, a better-performing Butler might have replaced (or started over) Rowe as one of the two corners. Same could be said of Jones, if he had been available. It seems unlikely to me that any of those three would've been used in a safety role for which they weren't suited simply to try to replace Richards.

If Butler had been healthy and produced a great week of practice, and Jones has been available, that might have influenced the strategic thinking by adding more options. But it also might not have given that they still lacked the LB.

 

[Love The Drake]

What about Gimore And Rowe at db with Mccourty in the nickel Chung and Harmon at safety
Takes Richards and Badenosi off the field.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It seemed to me that the Pats were committed to running a 2-corner, 3-safety/4-safety strategy in the secondary regardless. Had there been a more effective ILB on the roster in addition to Van Noy/Roberts, the personnel strategy might have been different (and likely would've been different all season).

As things stood, a better-performing Butler might have replaced (or started over) Rowe as one of the two corners. Same could be said of Jones, if he had been available. It seems unlikely to me that any of those three would've been used in a safety role for which they weren't suited simply to try to replace Richards.

If Butler had been healthy and produced a great week of practice, and Jones has been available, that might have influenced the strategic thinking by adding more options. But it also might not have given that they still lacked the LB.

This has been hashed, re-hashed and hashed some more and I'm not going to get into it too much but I tend to agree. There are smarter Xs and Os people on this board than I.

What I will always believe is it was accumulation of factors that led to Malcolm's benching. If Malcolm had a regular season like 2016 AND his two weeks leading up to the SB was business-as-usual in his game preparation he would have played a lot. Would it have been over Rowe? Not sure but is sure as hell would have been over Badman and I have to think Malcolm would have taken away some snaps from Richards regardless if it was a 2CB/3 config.

If we want to look at the KC game Week 1 which had a similar offense as PHI, Gilmore, DMC, Butler and Harmon all played over 90% of the snaps and Chung, Richards and Rowe were all in the 60% and 50% respectfully.

Personally, I think Flowers should have played more than his 18 snaps as I think hes better in coverage than Richards and a better tackler.

Philly's WRs are ok but in no way are worldbeaters. Malcolm could have handled their WR2 or WR 3 along with Rowe. I'm convinced of that.

Underneath with M Flowers, KVN and Chung that was passable. Not great, but passable.

They still would have allowed a bunch of points but would have had better talent on the field to make the plays that needed to be made.

 

[maineman209]

What about Gimore And Rowe at db with Mccourty in the nickel Chung and Harmon at safety
Takes Richards and Badenosi off the field.

That was their base package in the SB. Richards was in as an additional SS/LB in the "dime" package.

Bademosi only came in as a temporary replacement SS for a few snaps while Chung was out - not something their either Butler or Jones could have done better. Although also a "CB", Bademosi is significantly bigger than both Butler and Jones, as well as being a very sound tackler/block-shedder on ST. That Bademosi effed-up on a play doesn't mean that Butler or Jones would have done it better.