Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[Ring 6]

Based on everything we've heard from Belichick, Butler, and multiple sources (including players) close to the team, it wasn't anything significant at all. It was for match-up reasons. Which is mind boggling. The GOAT coach cost his team their 6th Super Bowl victory and essentially flushed an all time great game by his quarterback down the crapper.

Not exactly.
These words, from butler himself, say he wasn’t mentally ready.


“I wasn’t feeling too well," he said. "I felt like that was kind of part of it. Not to blame anybody. I accept full responsibly for myself. I am not blaming the New England Patriots or no one. It could have been just me, you know. It could have been anything, but I was not feeling too well and the New England Patriots are all about doing their job and they want everybody locked in and focused 100 percent and that probably was not the case. I am glad to be a Tennessee Titan.”

 

[RobertWeathers]

It doesn't help me cope it haunts me that Belichick made a decision that cost a Super Bowl.

And obviously "only reason" is silly. If Brady didn't fumble, etc. But if Butler plays the Pats win.

Wrong approach in reconciling the loss.

 

[lancerman]

It's going to be one of the great irony's football that Butler's career with the Patriots started because Belichick saw his defense getting exploited in a Super Bowl and he made the change to Butler to fix it and it ended with Belichick refusing to make a change and allow Butler to go in after a pregame decision to not play him despite his defense getting exploited.

 

[Simpelton]

It's going to be one of the great irony's football that Butler's career with the Patriots started because Belichick saw his defense getting exploited in a Super Bowl and he made the change to Butler to fix it and it ended with Belichick refusing to make a change and allow Butler to go in after a pregame decision to not play him despite his defense getting exploited.

I do believe the might-have-been factor of butler is significantly exaggerating the impact he could have had. Not saying that means Bill did the right thing but let's keep our perspective.

 

[lancerman]

I do believe the might-have-been factor of butler is significantly exaggerating the impact he could have had. Not saying that means Bill did the right thing but let's keep our perspective.

I think the problem is this.... Let's say Butler goes in, here are the three scenario's that play out.

Best scenario: He completely changes the defense and our secondary stuffs the Eagles receivers and we solidly win the game

Middle of the road case: He comes in and does good enough to make one or two extra stops that give us enough of a lead to win the game.

Worst case: The defense still gets torched just as bad as it was getting torched.

See the issue is the worst case is still the same as what we got and it's not hard to envision a scenario where are most reliable defensive player all year can help us get the one stop we needed.

 

[Simpelton]

Our most reliable player all year was Gilmore. Butler had a very inconsistent 2017-2018 campaign.

Again this is what I'm talking about when I reference the might-have-been factor. With no actual live performance to reference, we're free to fancifully imagine the rosiest of the rosy scenarios and put that forward as if it definitely would have happened. Armchair quarterbacking, or in this case armchair head-coaching, works exactly like this.

Again, I don't even disagree with the argument in principle, I just wish fans would keep their heads a bit and keep things in perspective.

And I think it's worth hammering the point home that Foles was dialed in at a level I've rarely seen outside of Brady himself, and had shredded a far better defense than the Patriots were even with Butler, in the NFCCG. Dude was "in the zone" for an entire playoff run, and I don't think very much this side of the Good Lord himself could have stopped him.

When a quarterback is seeing the field as well as Foles was, and was as locked in as Foles was, it would take something a lot more significant than a sick man who wasn't 100% on the game plan to pull him up short.

Under the circumstances I think it's fair to acknowledge the spread of possibilities but put the lion's share of the weight on the "it wouldn't have made a difference" side of the scale.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the problem is this.... Let's say Butler goes in, here are the three scenario's that play out.

Best scenario: He completely changes the defense and our secondary stuffs the Eagles receivers and we solidly win the game

Middle of the road case: He comes in and does good enough to make one or two extra stops that give us enough of a lead to win the game.

Worst case: The defense still gets torched just as bad as it was getting torched.

See the issue is the worst case is still the same as what we got and it's not hard to envision a scenario where are most reliable defensive player all year can help us get the one stop we needed.

But that is hindsight.
If you are the coach of a team and you believe you have the best players on the field THAT DAY to help you win, it’s not a no brainer to say throw someone else in there that I don’t believe gives us the best chance to win. To say we never stopped them so it couldn’t have been worse us hindsight that isn’t available at the time.
It is very reasonable to assume that putting in the guy I think isn’t prepared to play today isnt the adjustment you make when you are trying to figure out how to just get a damn stop.
I think what people are not getting is based upon the circumstances that week and hay day belichick in his judgment felt butler was the worst option on his roster that day.

 

[Ring 6]

It's going to be one of the great irony's football that Butler's career with the Patriots started because Belichick saw his defense getting exploited in a Super Bowl and he made the change to Butler to fix it and it ended with Belichick refusing to make a change and allow Butler to go in after a pregame decision to not play him despite his defense getting exploited.

Not really. He makes many changes and doesn’t make many changes week in and week out.
It’s not like these are the only 2 decisions he has ever made.

 

[lancerman]

But that is hindsight.
If you are the coach of a team and you believe you have the best players on the field THAT DAY to help you win, it’s not a no brainer to say throw someone else in there that I don’t believe gives us the best chance to win. To say we never stopped them so it couldn’t have been worse us hindsight that isn’t available at the time.
It is very reasonable to assume that putting in the guy I think isn’t prepared to play today isnt the adjustment you make when you are trying to figure out how to just get a damn stop.
I think what people are not getting is based upon the circumstances that week and hay day belichick in his judgment felt butler was the worst option on his roster that day.

There’s point where you have to have the self awareness to know you are getting torched and your first plan didn’t work and it’s time to try something else. That’s the problem. In game there is a point where Belichick had to realize that what he was doing was failing and that doing back to the lineup he had all year at its absolute worst case scenario was only going to be bad as what was going on at the time.

 

[lancerman]

Not really. He makes many changes and doesn’t make many changes week in and week out.
It’s not like these are the only 2 decisions he has ever made.

That’s true, but that’s how it’s going be remembered forever.

 

[PatsFan2]

I am just glad he got his well deserved Pay Day!

 

[Ring 6]

There’s point where you have to have the self awareness to know you are getting torched and your first plan didn’t work and it’s time to try something else. That’s the problem. In game there is a point where Belichick had to realize that what he was doing was failing and that doing back to the lineup he had all year at its absolute worst case scenario was only going to be bad as what was going on at the time.

Again if you operate from the assumption that butler is his worst option (and butlers own words hint at that) it’s not that change you make.
There is also an argument for sticking with what you believe is best rather than just trying things.
In other words this is not so black and white.

 

[Ring 6]

That’s true, but that’s how it’s going be remembered forever.

I’ll remember it as whether his fault or due to circumstances (illness) butler was not prepared to help the team in the Sb and if he were the result may have been different.
But I’ve never been one for judging decisions without the relevant facts that went into them available to me.

 

[lancerman]

Again if you operate from the assumption that butler is his worst option (and butlers own words hint at that) it’s not that change you make.
There is also an argument for sticking with what you believe is best rather than just trying things.
In other words this is not so black and white.

If it’s failing at the worst level possible there really is no argument to not just try things (especially things like the exact same thing you did all year that got you to this point).

Even if you take the most lenient stance, Belichick still watched his defense get ripped apart from the start of the game to the finish and didn’t remotely try to adjust. If something got you to the Super Bowl, and then you don’t do it in the Super Bowl, it fails spectacularly, at some point it’s right to question why you didn’t try the thing that actually succeeded

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Some people tend to give bill a pass but the guy's not perfect. It will go down as one of the most boneheaded decisions ever. The guy was suited up and he could have been put in the game at any moment. People will defend bill on this board because he can't do anything wrong and trust in BB.

 

[lancerman]

I’ll remember it as whether his fault or due to circumstances (illness) butler was not prepared to help the team in the Sb and if he were the result may have been different.
But I’ve never been one for judging decisions without the relevant facts that went into them available to me.

You don’t know that he wouldn’t have helped. This is the problem, you assume whatever is going to benefit your point of view. Factually we know that what we did do completely failed. Whatever your opinion of Butler, he’s still our second best CB, it puts worse CB’s on the sideline and gets everyone in their regular position, which is something that got us to 13-3 and a Super Bowl appearance. The worst case scenario with that is equal to what we got.

 

[Simpelton]

That’s true, but that’s how it’s going be remembered forever.

Not by me. I'm going to remember it as a game where the Eagles had all the momentum, we fought very hard and made a lot of great plays and came just a few plays short of carrying the championship.

Again, which was the better defensive team throughout the 2017 season, the Vikings or the Patriots? obviously the answer is the Vikings. Even if you throw Butler into the mix, you have to give a decisive edge to the Vikings' defense due to their relative strength on the defensive line.

Foles shredded the Vikings just as badly as he shredded us. Literally the difference in scores between Foles v the Vikings and Foles v us was the offensive turnover and field goal at the end of the game.

That's some pretty freaking strong evidence that one Butler more or less was not changing the outcome of that game. Better defenses than ours were hopeless against that offensive attack. It wasn't happening guys. I know we felt like we missed it by inches, but it was just not gonna happen for us that day. Foles was too locked in.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

If it’s failing at the worst level possible there really is no argument to not just try things (especially things like the exact same thing you did all year that got you to this point).

Even if you take the most lenient stance, Belichick still watched his defense get ripped apart from the start of the game to the finish and didn’t remotely try to adjust. If something got you to the Super Bowl, and then you don’t do it in the Super Bowl, it fails spectacularly, at some point it’s right to question why you didn’t try the thing that actually succeeded

He's a great coach but i think his defensive genius tag's a bit overrated.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Not by me. I'm going to remember it as a game where the Eagles had all the momentum, we fought very hard and made a lot of great plays and came just a few plays short of carrying the championship.

Again, which was the better defensive team throughout the 2017 season, the Vikings or the Patriots? obviously the answer is the Vikings.

Foles shredded the Vikings just as badly as he shredded us. Literally the difference in scores between Foles v the Vikings and Foles v us was the offensive turnover and field goal at the end of the game.

That's some pretty freaking strong evidence that one Butler more or less was not changing the outcome of that game. Better defenses than ours were hopeless against that offensive attack. It wasn't happening guys. I know we felt like we missed it by inches, but it was just not gonna happen for us that day. Foles was too locked in.

The Vikings are different outside their dome. Listen putting butler in doesn't hurt. He's a lot better than what i was watching the whole game. All you needed was one bit defensive play here or there.

 

[Ring 6]

If it’s failing at the worst level possible there really is no argument to not just try things (especially things like the exact same thing you did all year that got you to this point).

Even if you take the most lenient stance, Belichick still watched his defense get ripped apart from the start of the game to the finish and didn’t remotely try to adjust. If something got you to the Super Bowl, and then you don’t do it in the Super Bowl, it fails spectacularly, at some point it’s right to question why you didn’t try the thing that actually succeeded

It’s wrong to say he didn’t adjust. He just didn’t make the adjustment that you want.

Again, if he believes butler is unprepared to play, physically, mentally or emotionally, it’s like suggesting since things aren’t working he should try McCourty at DT.
Thr bottom line is on that day butler wasn’t the player who played all season, and he all but admits that himself.
You can’t view the decision based upon how butler played all year when the man making the decision felt that was nowhere near the level of play he would get, which the only thing that is blatantly obvious about what happened is that is what he believed.