Is it time for the NFL to dump the Rooney rule?

[Snake Eyes]

It is indeed a business requirement of the nfl to have black coaches, assistant coaches and position coaches. Yes, black players would react differently to all-white coaching staffs. Do you really think that they wouldn't?

It's very interesting that you say that, I don't presume to know what people do/think based on their color.

 

[neuronet]

Yeah because the Steelers clearly had no
intention of hiring Tomlin. :bricks:

Stupidity has gotten way out of hand in another thread.

Let's check the facts...

Ken Whisenhunt and Russ Grimm were frontrunners for the job originally, not Tomlin. Tomlin was one of an original pool of a dozen minority applicants that they would not have otherwise considered that were pointed out to Rooney as they prepared for the interview process. Tomlin was an unlikely candidate as he came from a 4-3 defense and Pitt wanted to stick with 3-4, so this was a serious concern.

When you call someone stupid, you might want to make sure you are actually right.

 

[neuronet]

To the folks who are saying that any hiring policy which treats races differently is racist and thus wrong...I assume that you're also the folks insisting that Hooters start hiring male waiters, right? Because a hiring policy that favors females is sexist and thus wrong?

Oh sure, you could say "this is a business requirement, because the male customers we're trying to attract want to look at female waitstaff." But if do, then you'd have to accept the argument that "black coaches are a business requirement, because the black free agents we're trying to attract want to play for black coaches."

So: down with the Rooney rule, up with Hooters Boys in tight t-shirts?

People are acting as if this is some government imposed rule that would give unqualified black people jobs.

It isn't. It was agreed upon by all the owners, self-imposed, only opens opportunities for interviews, it doesn't put quotas in place, nobody unqualified gets hired. It just opened up channels for opportunities that have been unavailable historically.

Boo hoo. My only response to most of these complaints stays the same, 'Cry me a river, whitey.'

 

[BSR]

1) Perhaps we should limit the number of African-American players to 12.4%. Seriously, the percentage of blacks in the total population is irrelevant. Coaching staffs come primarily from a pool of former players where more than 12.4% are black.

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a strong feeling either way towards the rule, but why shouldn't the optimal percentage of black players and coaches be around 12.4%?

And I'm not talking about this metric in the short term where one percentage (black coaches) is clearly inconsistent with another (black players) when you should expect a higher correlation. The problem though is that both are statistical anomalies skewed by social inequalities. Using one as a guideline for the other in the long term seems flawed. I mean shouldn't the ultimate goal be for the NFL makeup ultimately be a mirror of the population?

 

[Snake Eyes]

People are acting as if this is some government imposed rule that would give unqualified black people jobs.

It isn't. It was agreed upon by all the owners, self-imposed, only opens opportunities for interviews, it doesn't put quotas in place, nobody unqualified gets hired. It just opened up channels for opportunities that have been unavailable historically.

Boo hoo. My only response to most of these complaints stays the same, 'Cry me a river, whitey.'

Yeah, you just confirm that people like yourself don't actually have a problem with racism just as long as the right people are targeted by it.

 

[upstater1]

It's very interesting that you say that, I don't presume to know what people do/think based on their color.

When your race tends to lose out on employment in the business world (this has been studied and verified by research looking at hiring for people with similar credentials) and when your race is also incarcerated at a much higher rate (after being found guilty of like crimes), then you tend to develop a much more critical and analytical eye for relations between your race and others.

 

[upstater1]

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a strong feeling either way towards the rule, but why shouldn't the optimal percentage of black players and coaches be around 12.4%?

And I'm not talking about this metric in the short term where one percentage (black coaches) is clearly inconsistent with another (black players) when you should expect a higher correlation. The problem though is that both are statistical anomalies skewed by social inequalities. Using one as a guideline for the other in the long term seems flawed. I mean shouldn't the ultimate goal be for the NFL makeup ultimately be a mirror of the population?

I don't see why this should be the case. It's OK for different ethnicities to prefer some past times (sports, art, culture) over others. I mean, people aren't clamoring or demanding that more black players be drafted into the NHL based on their race. This isn't what it's about.

 

[Halifax_Pats_Fan]

I don't see why this should be the case. It's OK for different ethnicities to prefer some past times (sports, art, culture) over others. I mean, people aren't clamoring or demanding that more black players be drafted into the NHL based on their race. This isn't what it's about.

I think Wilfork would put Brodeur to shame. He would just have to stand there and never move. How are you gonna score? You could take a run at him but he better not catch you or you're toast...

 

[BSR]

I don't see why this should be the case. It's OK for different ethnicities to prefer some past times (sports, art, culture) over others. I mean, people aren't clamoring or demanding that more black players be drafted into the NHL based on their race. This isn't what it's about.

This disparity has nothing to do with ethic preference, and I wonder what would make you think it is. The disparity has more to do with socioeconomic factors which I would hope people would expect to even out in the long term.

 

[Snake Eyes]

When your race tends to lose out on employment in the business world (this has been studied and verified by research looking at hiring for people with similar credentials) and when your race is also incarcerated at a much higher rate (after being found guilty of like crimes), then you tend to develop a much more critical and analytical eye for relations between your race and others.

You didnt address my point about Free Agents choice of team based on the color of the coach, I think the claim that Black coaches are necessary to attract Free Agents is nonsense.

Anyway, regarding hiring discrepancies, how much of it do you think is actually due to culture rather than race?

 

[VJCPatriot]

The Rooney rule was instituted to correct a past pattern of discrimination. And the Rooney rule does NOT require that a minority candidate be hired, only that an interview must be offered. Therefore NFL teams and owners are always free to disregard any candidate they don't feel is fit for the job. The fact that minority coaches have increased just tends to prove that these guys were qualified for the jobs after all, they just needed to be given the chance to get looked at.

BTW shouldn't this be in the political forum or something?

The Dolphins want to hire Harbaugh.....
Do they really need to do a manditory interview of a black coach before they can hire him?

At the end of the 2010 NFL season, there were 8 black head coaches.
Marvin Lewis, Cincinnati Bengals (eighth season).
Lovie Smith, Chicago Bears (seventh season).
Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers (fourth season).
Mike Singletary, San Francisco 49ers (third season).
Jim Caldwell, Indianapolis Colts (second season).
Raheem Morris, Tampa Bay Buccaneers (second season).
Leslie Frazier, Minnesota Vikings (interim coach).
Eric Studesville, Denver Broncos (interim coach).

The last USA demographics I could find has the Black population
at 12.4 percent

If there were 8 black head coaches in the NFL at the end of the
season, then 25% of the head coaches were black, which is more
than double the 12.4% black population percentage.

If someone is going to spend close to a billion dollars on a football team,
I am sure they are going to hire the best coach they can find.

 

[lamafist]

If you think this nonsense will help wipe away residual effects of slavery I have a bridge to sell you. Someone who is a racist won't hire a black anyway, and for someone who isn't racist it's unnecessary.

Yes, in an age when Obama couldnt have been elected with very popular white support it's obvious that we need rules like this.

No, I don't think the Rooney Rule will wipe away the effects of slavery. Know why? Because I don't believe that the effect of slavery on African Americans could possibly be wiped away in our lifetimes or the next.

First off, let's get one thing prefectly clear: the notion of a "color blind" society where everyone really gets treated equally is a fairy tale. Racism has existed in every civilization in which two races have coexisted. There are ethnic struggles still being fought a millennia after they were started. In areas that lack the genetic diversity for classic our-color-vs-their-color racism, people divide themselves into clans or other sub-groups of us and them for the sake of forming prejudices.

So I'm really not interested in hearing more of this nonsense about how the Rooney Rule perpetuates "racism" by operating on racial lines. Racism existed before the Rooney Rule, it exists now, and it will exist for the foreseeable future. Any argument that pretends otherwise doesn't interest me, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world we live in.

 

[upstater1]

This disparity has nothing to do with ethic preference, and I wonder what would make you think it is. The disparity has more to do with socioeconomic factors which I would hope people would expect to even out in the long term.

Socioeconomic factors are a part of it, ethnic factors are a part of it. To say they have NOTHING to do with it doesn't explain why Edelman is the only Jewish player I can think of. It has a lot to do with it. In my city, there isn't even a baseball little league. NO LEAGUE. Doesn't exist. Socioeconomics or preference? I'd say it's the latter. Baseball doesn't cost too much ton play, and if they can play both organized football and basketball in my inner city, then why do you think they aren't playing baseball?

 

[upstater1]

You didnt address my point about Free Agents choice of team based on the color of the coach, I think the claim that Black coaches are necessary to attract Free Agents is nonsense.

Anyway, regarding hiring discrepancies, how much of it do you think is actually due to culture rather than race?

I thought we were talking about all white coaching staffs--which existed in the NFL not too long ago.

I'm not getting your second question. What do you mean about culture rather than race?

 

[lamafist]

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I don't have a strong feeling either way towards the rule, but why shouldn't the optimal percentage of black players and coaches be around 12.4%?

And I'm not talking about this metric in the short term where one percentage (black coaches) is clearly inconsistent with another (black players) when you should expect a higher correlation. The problem though is that both are statistical anomalies skewed by social inequalities. Using one as a guideline for the other in the long term seems flawed. I mean shouldn't the ultimate goal be for the NFL makeup ultimately be a mirror of the population?

It's a cart/horse issue.

The demographics of professional sports are determined by socioeconomic factors. Trying to go pro in sports is not only a crap-ton of grueling work an dedication, it's also a huge longshot -- chances are, all of that work training is going to end up not netting you a cent. If you have other, safer opportunities -- college, the family business, etc. -- than you're much less likely to put all of your time and energy into the crapshoot of going pro.

Thus, in this country, where African Americans not only comprise up a disproportionate percentage of the poor, but also have more institutional obstacles in the way on the more traditional paths to financial success, you see a disproportionate number of professional athletes coming from the black community.

So if you really want the racial demographics of pro sports to resemble the nation's demographics, you're going to have to work to get the average black and latino kids the same level of opportunity enjoyed by the average white kid. Of course, for that to happen, you need to deal with the fact the grossly disparate ratio of minority children being born into poverty vs. white children.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

1) Perhaps we should limit the number of African-American players to 12.4%. Seriously, the percentage of blacks in the total population is irrelevant. Coaching staffs come primarily from a pool of former players where more than 12.4% are black.

Who is the best coach in the NFL?
Most people feel it is Belichick.
He never played in the NFL.

With little to no research, here are a couple other coaches who never
played in the NFL.

Vince Lombardi
Paul Brown
George Halas
John Maddon
Bill Walsh
Joe Gibbs

Sure the majority of todays coaches use to play in the NFL, but quite a few of the best 10 coaches of all time never played in the NFL

Let's face it....... these guys are no Marvin Lewis.

 

[Kontradiction]

It is indeed a business requirement of the nfl to have black coaches, assistant coaches and position coaches. Yes, black players would react differently to all-white coaching staffs. Do you really think that they wouldn't?

Where would the nfl be if they had zero black coaches and few black position coaches at the same time as having an anti-trust waiver from Congress?

The liberal media sould crucify such a racist nfl as would the Congress; yes, even the current Congress.

Huh? I've seen plenty of teams at all levels with mostly black players that have functioned just fine on an all-white coaching staff. I played at a high school that had a predominantly black team and an all-white coaching staff. Aside from the usual attitude problems that come with a high school football team, there didn't seem to be any racial tension. Surely if high schoolers and college students can handle it, professionals can handle it as well.

Same would go for white players on all-black coaching staffs.

 

[BSR]

Socioeconomic factors are a part of it, ethnic factors are a part of it. To say they have NOTHING to do with it doesn't explain why Edelman is the only Jewish player I can think of. It has a lot to do with it. In my city, there isn't even a baseball little league. NO LEAGUE. Doesn't exist. Socioeconomics or preference? I'd say it's the latter. Baseball doesn't cost too much ton play, and if they can play both organized football and basketball in my inner city, then why do you think they aren't playing baseball?

Are you trying to say that Jewish people don't watch football? Seriously, what makes you think that?

As for the baseball comparison, when was the last time you watched NCAA baseball game? How about an NCAA basketball or football game? The economics of the college sport and the baseball draft are exactly why there is a decline in the number of black players. It has nothing to do with culture.

 

[BSR]

So if you really want the racial demographics of pro sports to resemble the nation's demographics, you're going to have to work to get the average black and latino kids the same level of opportunity enjoyed by the average white kid. Of course, for that to happen, you need to deal with the fact the grossly disparate ratio of minority children being born into poverty vs. white children.

Yes, that is exactly my point. The national demorgraphics are not irrelevant, as ultimately you would like the percentages to naturally balance out to those demographics. That being said, I think the current disparity is also relevant as it points out the problems with the system, although we can't tell how much of it is the residual effects of a previous era. Eventually there will be a time when it makes sense to do away with the Rooney Rule but I'll leave that up to those that are more intimate with the details of the NFL coaching ranks.

 

[lamafist]

Who is the best coach in the NFL?
Most people feel it is Belichick.
He never played in the NFL.

With little to no research, here are a couple other coaches who never
played in the NFL.

Vince Lombardi
Paul Brown
George Halas
John Maddon
Bill Walsh
Joe Gibbs

Sure the majority of todays coaches use to play in the NFL, but quite a few of the best 10 coaches of all time never played in the NFL

Let's face it....... these guys are no Marvin Lewis.

George Halas played professional football in the AFPL. It wasn't called the NFL yet. Halas also played for the Yankees. Go figure.

John Madden was drafted by an NFL team. A knee injury in training camp ended his career before it started.