Idle thoughts - the 'endgame' edition

[Uptown]

Trey Flowers is tied for sixth in the NFL with 24 quarterback hits.

Duron Harmon is tied for tenth in the NFL in interceptions (four).

Brandin Cooks is fifth in the NFL in yards per reception (16.7).

Rob Gronkowski is tied for sixth in the NFL in receiving touchdowns (eight). He's ninth in receiving yards (1,084) and fifth in yards per reception (83.4).

Dion Lewis is third in the NFL in yards per carry (5.2). He's eighth in all-purpose yards (1,547). He's third in yards per kick return (24.8).

We're in Week 17 and Tom Brady leads the NFL in passing yards, completions and total offense. He's second in passer rating and third in passing touchdowns.

Speaking of dominant, Patrick Chung was fantastic Sunday. Tyrod Taylor was 1-of-9 for 11 yards when targeting the safety. I also had Chung down for three deflections even though the stat sheet gave him two.

Malcom Brown was pretty dominant on Sunday. Three of his six tackles went for negative or no gain. He's improved so much this season.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, if nothing else, you guys did frame the argument extremely well.


I just did re-watch the play on my computer frame by frame without audio and it does take digital alignment to figure it out. You need to use the camera from the field side to get a clear view of exactly when control is obtained, but in that shot you can't really see where the feet are well enough. Then you need to flip over to stands side to see exactly where the feet are (left foot in particular) at that point of time and beyond (but you don't get a good enough view of the hands to determine control). What I see is control happens late in the play (in my view a bit later than Romo suggests) and at that point of time the left toe is off the ground, and the left ankle is above the right heel (i.e. legs are crossed) so it's never going to touch, and in fact it doesn't.

Then I watched it again on my TV. Romo is pretty close to spot on. Nantz keeps bringing up the left foot dragging, but that happens before control is established, so he's just wrong. Romo is pointing out the real issue is the left foot's position once control is established. Romo says he would not reverse based on the evidence he sees, but I presume NY was able to do a more exact frame by frame replay and made it clear to the refs.

So, we did get the right call, yet one announcer incorrectly said it was wrong, and the other was on the right trail but in the end didn't have enough evidence to convince himself.

It makes me think we need to either (a) just get rid of replay and live with the calls made on the field or (b) get Al Riveron or his designee to present his evidence some time shortly after the call (next stoppage in play, or some artificial break between plays just like a TV timeout) so we all know why he made the call he made. The current method of a tweet from NFL OPs is not good enough, IMHO.

The main problem with (a) is that we're still going to be getting the network's frame by frame clip and often it will show the wrong call is made and most of one team's fans will be butthurt. That genie can't be put back into the bottle. One team is going to be told refs are human, unfortunately they made a mistake, so suck it up. That doesn't seem tenable.

The main problem with (b) is we go even deeper into the high tech eye in the sky approach, and the logistics get more complicated. Not only do calls have to be made quickly, the evidence used to make the call needs to be packaged and presented shortly thereafter.

IMHO this article:

Mike Pereira rips NFL for overturning Bills WR Kelvin Benjamin's TD catch​

and this (scroll down to BUF-NE part):

King: The Eagles look very beatable; Week 16 MMQB​

does a good job of showing the frustration being felt around the league about this issue.

I don’tfeel that Peter King and riverons predecessors complaining because he got it right represents frustration being felt around the league.
I know you feel differently but all that matters to me is they get it right and the result on the field is correct and anyone who wishes to complain can go ahead I don’t care.

 

[n6249c]

If you're going to even try to get the calls right, why stop halfway? Isn't that just saying "we'll do our best to get it right, unless that's too hard."?

Why not just decide the results of every play by polling fifty random guys in the barroom? Isn't that what's being proposed? Change the rules because they're hard on those guys in the bar?

 

[cmasspatsfan]

I heard Dale and Holley saying they got it wrong. Buckley comes out with a similar column, just because these morons didn't see the right angle/shot they can't compehend that NY did. It's a case of being anti-homer cause you can' root for the home team.

 

[rads2005]

f. Riveron was one for two today, imho. He got the 4th and one right on the Lewis "reach". But the pass to Benjamin SHOULD have been a catch. Now I understand WHY he overturned it. It was all about WHEN he determined he had control over the ball. I get it, BUT in this case, I think you have to go back to the concept of, "you need clear evidence" to overturn a call on the field. Sorry but in THIS case there wasn't clear evidence

h. Receivers - Of course we really have to see what he does next season, but my thoughts are that Brandin Cooks is NOT going to be some kind of dominate WR that teams have to plan around. He IS though a very good WR, who helps stretch the defense, and usually can be counted on to get behind the defense a couple of times a game.

He seems like a great kid and he really seems to like playing here, so perhaps a middle ground could be found in 2019. He's a great value now, and would be a good value next year if we got a similar performance, but NOT an elite WR.....so far.

Agree with the Cooks analysis- he's very good, but I don't see elite. He's definitely fast but not the kind of speed I was hoping for, like something approaching the comical Randy Moss or Deion Sanders speed where everyone else looked remarkably stuck in mud.

Disagree with the analysis on the Benjamin catch, after the first few run throughs it looked pretty clear to me. I guess I'm in the minority though, given former VPs of officiating have both said they disagreed with the replay being overturned. But to me, it seemed fairly obvious Benjamin's left foot had picked up at the time he established control again. The whole time Benjamin's left foot dragged he was bobbling.

 

[rads2005]

3. Defense

Seconday -

Again, hard to believe that in the end the Bills' offense only scored 9 points. Gilmore had a tough day against KBenjamin. Just about every time Taylor actually threw a great pass it was to Benjamin, but giving up 5 catches for 76 yds is not what you want to see from your $13MM man....or even your $4MM man. He needs to find a way to play those really big WR's better.

I don't know what he was doing differently with Benjamin than he did with Mike Evans (who is a better receiver), but he should go back and look at that tape. Now it could be that on a couple of those catches underneath, Gilmore might have been in some kind of zone coverage that created space. But there were a couple that was obvious man coverage that Benjamin won. The coverage wasn't horrible, in fact sometimes it was good. Just not good enough.

Our $4MM man didn't fare much better. He had a couple of good plays but his guy had 91 yds, and didn't just win because he was bigger, but because he was open. I am now officially worried about Malcolm Butler. For a guy who is in his contract season, he just isn't having a very good year.

Totally agree with the Butler analysis. I've been kinda hesitant to say this, since the posts I can remember on Butler this season on this forum have been positive. I just don't think he's having a good season, and the worrisome thing is it's his contract year. One has to wonder if opposing receivers have started getting an edge, figuring out Butler's tendencies?

I'm a fan of Gilmore. I think sometimes good throws and a super tall guy like Benjamin there just isn't a whole lot any shorter corner can do. The difference in the two games with Mike Evans and Benjamin might just boil down to normal variance- sometimes the QB makes perfect throws that only their tall receiver can catch.

 

[rads2005]

Gilmore didnt have a great but also not a bad day. Overall he was as effective on Benjamin as he was on Evans. The only difference is that Benjamin had two outstanding grabs despite great coverage (the TD and then the sideline grab where he somehow managed to stay in bounds) and then got away with 1-2 blatant push offs on comeback routes for third down conversions.

On some level you cant ask more from a CB than being tight on a player in coverage. If a QB like TT who on many throws cant seem to hit a barn can fit 2 throws into tight windows like that and it still requires an amazing catch then it is just another tip of the hat moment.

People get too sidelined by money and contracts instead of looking at matchups. Benjamin used his size and body advantage to make some plays and this will happen. We see it every week with Gronk or Jimmy Graham against pro bowl level players.

Well said, better than I did. Reminds me of that great coverage Rowe had on Julio Jones in the SB. Matt Ryan made a throw that was just out of Rowe's reach and Julio made a great catch on it. But Rowe still had great coverage.

 

[Bill Lee]

If you're going to even try to get the calls right, why stop halfway? Isn't that just saying "we'll do our best to get it right, unless that's too hard."?

Why not just decide the results of every play by polling fifty random guys in the barroom? Isn't that what's being proposed? Change the rules because they're hard on those guys in the bar?

Because replay taken to the extreme takes much of the excitement out of the game.

We're turning something that used to be like watching porn into something like watching a film of amoeba splitting in high school biology.

If we want to get things absolutely right, next we'll have players wearing GPSes and cameras and sensors on every part of their body and after each and every play we'll have a three minute break while warehouse scale super computers spin away and then spit out a list of penalties, complete/incomplete, and next down and distance. Fun, eh? Yeah, but the calls will be right, so we should do it!

After that, just replace the humans with robots. Then we'll have so much data there will be next to no doubt about what happened on each play. Calls will be exactly right, NFL will still have something to put on TV, gamblers will still have something to gamble on, and all will be right with the world. No one will watch it, but the calls will be right, so we're good to go.

 

[neckroll#14]

...snip

After that, just replace the humans with robots. Then we'll have so much data there will be next to no doubt about what happened on each play. Calls will be exactly right, NFL will still have something to put on TV, gamblers will still have something to gamble on, and all will be right with the world. No one will watch it, but the calls will be right, so we're good to go.

This solves the whole CTE problem too!

 

[Mike the Brit]

After that, just replace the humans with robots. Then we'll have so much data there will be next to no doubt about what happened on each play. Calls will be exactly right, NFL will still have something to put on TV, gamblers will still have something to gamble on, and all will be right with the world. No one will watch it, but the calls will be right, so we're good to go.

Here you go! (EDIT: 14:06)

​

 

[Mike the Brit]

I'd like to propose a new word for Patsfans terminology: the SUP.

We all know what a JAG is -- Just Another Guy, as Bill Parcells ruthlessly put it, easily replaced.

Then there are what I call SUPs -- Serviceable Unsung Players. They're not obvious stars, but they contribute a lot and they're not easily replaced.

The best example of a SUP I can think of was Rob Ninkovich. He was never a star, but he played bigger than his size and faster than his speed. Last Sunday was a career day for Marquis Flowers, a perfect example of a SUP. But Lawrence Guy played well too. And then there's Eric Lee.

Has any other coach been better at finding SUPs or made better use of them?

 

[Bill Lee]

I don’tfeel that Peter King and riverons predecessors complaining because he got it right represents frustration being felt around the league.

Your comment makes me wonder if you read/listen/view much out of the market content. I just listened to a half dozen national podcasts and none of them lead with "he got it right", they all lead with "this has got to change".

Some things I found striking from the articles I linked:

Mike Pereira: It is more and more obvious that there isn't a standard for staying with the call on the field.

Dean Blandino: In New England, the issue is whether Benjamin had control with left foot down. Did not see anything clear & obvious to the contrary.

Peter King: What’s happening is that the officiating command center, it seems to me, is re-officiating calls on the field.

As above, I looked at it enough times to see what I presume Riveron saw, but it seems many still did not, and if they did, to them it was not clear and obvious, and to some it amounted to NY re-officiating the game.

You're free to not care, but also you shouldn't be shocked if the friendly Competition Committee ends up making some changes that you don't see coming.

 

[Ring 6]

Your comment makes me wonder if you read/listen/view much out of the market content. I just listened to a half dozen national podcasts and none of them lead with "he got it right", they all lead with "this has got to change".

My comment was in response to your post but I couldn’t care less what is being said because my view is getting it right is what matters.

Some things I found striking from the articles I linked:

Mike Pereira: It is more and more obvious that there isn't a standard for staying with the call on the field.

Dean Blandino: In New England, the issue is whether Benjamin had control with left foot down. Did not see anything clear & obvious to the contrary.



Peter King: What’s happening is that the officiating command center, it seems to me, is re-officiating calls on the field.

As above, I looked at it enough times to see what I presume Riveron saw, but it seems many still did not, and if they did, to them it was not clear and obvious, and to some it amounted to NY re-officiating the game.

Everyone has an opinion and guys who were forced out of the job aren’t my gold standard of objectivity.

You're free to not care, but also you shouldn't be shocked if the friendly Competition Committee ends up making some changes that you don't see coming.

I also don’t care to anticipate what the competition committee might do.
I’m not sure why you think my well considered opinion on the topic would change because you keep repeating your opposing position.

 

[Bill Lee]

My comment was in response to your post but I couldn’t care less what is being said because my view is getting it right is what matters.

Yet you said you were addressing what was being felt "around the league":

I don’tfeel that Peter King and riverons predecessors complaining because he got it right represents frustration being felt around the league.

... as opposed to "my view", thus my follow ons.

 

[Ring 6]

Yet you said you were addressing what was being felt "around the league":

No I was referring to you citing those 2 sources as representing what is being felt around the league.

... as opposed to "my view", thus my follow ons.

Not sure i get your point.

 

[Bill Lee]

No I was referring to you citing those 2 sources as representing what is being felt around the league.

Then tell us what you DO think is being felt around the league, so we can see why you justify your statement that these sources are not representative, instead of just repeating that you don't think they are representative. I've made it clear that I think they are, despite your characterization of one of the authors of one of the articles.

 

[Ring 6]

Then tell us what you DO think is being felt around the league, so we can see why you justify your statement that these sources are not representative, instead of just repeating that you don't think they are representative. I've made it clear that I think they are, despite your characterization of one of the authors of one of the articles.

Blandino king and pereira are not even IN the league much less being the league.
If you want to represent what is felt around the league I would expect to see the opinion of people in the league.
That is my point.
But this is a worthless discussion so say whatever you want I’m theough.

 

[Bill Lee]

If you want to represent what is felt around the league I would expect to see the opinion of people in the league.

In the league is not the same as around the league by pretty much every grammatical construction, but that view is consistent with the insistence that the thing that matters most is a rule that the officials find workable. The end result will be pretty much what I suggest, a product that works well for NFL, Inc. but not for the fans.

 

[Bill Lee]

Here you go! (EDIT: 14:06)

Seems like the robots get a lot of Polish names. Clearly the presence of Gronkowski has reverberations across the eons of time! I wonder if Hiccupski is one of his distant decedents taking on a mechanical form? Clearly the progeny of Bill O'Brien remain in coaching.

 

[Bill Lee]

Apparently Mike Lombardi (formerly an insider?) also wonders what gets called a catch these days:

Which points to:

And, tweeted by Mike on Dec 24th during the NEP-BUF game we're discussing: