How Belichick lost his place in posterity

venecol said:

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But who do you think is better Knoll or Belichick?

sb1 said:

Overstated.

Debunking Brady being "carried" to Super Bowls by his defense

I found a site where you can find advanced stats on offense and defense per year with filters. One of these stats is EPA - expected points provided by defense or offense per game and per play. For offense positive EPA is good and negative EPA is bad and for defense it's the other way around...

www.patsfans.com

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Nobody said “Brady got carried to a Super Bowl” except fools. Every QB in history who won a championship needed three phases to do so.

Saying Brady had superior defenses doesn’t diminish Tom’s greatness except in the minds of Brady zealots who the mods here had to build their own little safe space next door when he left.

XLIX said:

It sure proves the importance - or lack thereof - of the head coach relative to the importance of the players when a HC who is generally agreed to be a very bad one can still win a Super Bowl.

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Coaching period.

The Eagles fell apart last season after losing both coordinators.

Doug Pederson looks like a genius with Frank Reich running his offense and Jim Schwartz running his defense… since then not so much.

BB hired Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, **** Rehbein and retained Scar… they weren’t already sitting there in 2000 with a 2x Super Bowl winning roster like Switzer was handed. It was a terrible take.

Wozzy said:

Coaching period.

The Eagles fell apart last season after losing both coordinators.

Doug Pederson looks like a genius with Frank Reich running his offense and Jim Schwartz running his defense… since then not so much.

BB hired Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, **** Rehbein and retained Scar… they weren’t already sitting there in 2000 with a 2x Super Bowl winning roster like Switzer was handed. It was a terrible take.

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What did any of those coaches do without Brady? Im not sure why its so hard to understand that coaching does not mean **** if you do not have players to execute it.

Wozzy said:

Nobody said “Brady got carried to a Super Bowl” except fools. Every QB in history who won a championship needed three phases to do so.

Saying Brady had superior defenses doesn’t diminish Tom’s greatness except in the minds of Brady zealots who the mods here had to build their own little safe space next door when he left.

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Brady made those phases better, I already showed you this. You only use one defensive stat to determine your point and yet refuse to believe that a QB has a lot to do with a team giving up points or not. See 2019 Tampa and 2020 tampa with the same defense. Giving up points is a product of both sides. If the pats in any of those years they had a top 5 scoring defense had a bad offense that turned the ball over and didnt finish drives, they would in fact not be top 5.

Wozzy said:

Nobody said “Brady got carried to a Super Bowl” except fools. Every QB in history who won a championship needed three phases to do so.

Saying Brady had superior defenses doesn’t diminish Tom’s greatness except in the minds of Brady zealots who the mods here had to build their own little safe space next door when he left.

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And that is overstated imo. He didn't always have superior defenses. I don't think I'd call even half of his teams defenses superior.

Wozzy said:

Coaching period.

The Eagles fell apart last season after losing both coordinators.

Doug Pederson looks like a genius with Frank Reich running his offense and Jim Schwartz running his defense… since then not so much.

BB hired Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, **** Rehbein and retained Scar… they weren’t already sitting there in 2000 with a 2x Super Bowl winning roster like Switzer was handed. It was a terrible take.

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Jim Caldwell was a sub .300 college coach... as in his team won less than 3 out of every 10 games...and in the NFL as a HC he went to a Super Bowl and likely had an undefeated season if the Colts didn't concede on the idea... his team won the AFC. His QB was also Peyton Manning. So yeah that take is spot on. Players >>>>> coach.

Coaches can't win games just lose them.

Pats1971 said:

What did any of those coaches do without Brady? Im not sure why its so hard to understand that coaching does not mean **** if you do not have players to execute it.

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Case in point: 4-13

Pats1971 said:

What did any of those coaches do without Brady? Im not sure why its so hard to understand that coaching does not mean **** if you do not have players to execute it.

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Because I never disputed coaches can do anything without players, never, not once.

BB said "it's a players league" to Gronk and his players after a championship, he told Edelman when Jules thanked him for giving him a championship "I didn't give you anything, you earned it all."

Belichick doesn't have to qualify his career without Tom, he drafted and developed Brady. There is no Brady without BB.

sb1 said:

Case in point: 4-13

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Brady had Arians fired and went 8-9... good point.

sb1 said:

Jim Caldwell was a sub .300 college coach... as in his team won less than 3 out of every 10 games...and in the NFL as a HC he went to a Super Bowl and likely had an undefeated season if the Colts didn't concede on the idea... his team won the AFC. His QB was also Peyton Manning. So yeah that take is spot on. Players >>>>> coach.

Coaches can't win games just lose them.

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BB drafted and developed Brady, he didn't just appear out of the mist.

Wozzy said:

Brady had Arians fired and went 8-9... good point.

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What does that have to do with 4-13? proving that if the team sucks there's nothing a coach can do. Players matter a lot more.

Although in this case GM Bill was the reason why they sucked.

sb1 said:

And that is overstated imo. He didn't always have superior defenses. I don't think I'd call even half of his teams defenses superior.

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The graphic I provided above shows Brady had better defenses over his twenty year career than his peers... facts aren't your friend.

Wozzy said:

The graphic I provided above shows Brady had better defenses over his twenty year career than his peers... facts aren't your friend.

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Not really. Points allowed is a lousy metric for evaluating a defense if used by itself.

The 2019 and 2021 Patriots gave up the fewest and second fewest points in the league. How did they do against good offenses? They were not "superior" at all.

Wozzy said:

BB drafted and developed Brady, he didn't just appear out of the mist.

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Brady did a lot more to develop himself than anyone else did. That's why he became great.

Pats1971 said:

Brady made those phases better, I already showed you this. You only use one defensive stat to determine your point and yet refuse to believe that a QB has a lot to do with a team giving up points or not. See 2019 Tampa and 2020 tampa with the same defense. Giving up points is a product of both sides. If the pats in any of those years they had a top 5 scoring defense had a bad offense that turned the ball over and didnt finish drives, they would in fact not be top 5.

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You didn't show me anything.

You think Tom was out there defending the greatest show on turf or Peyton Manning. That's a unique kind of silly. Moreover it's insulting to the multitude of great players who contributed to those dynasty teams not named Tom Brady.

It's a clear indicator of someone who never played team sports and football at even the pee wee level. The best part of this entire thread is the one person who would disagree with you and call the entire tenor of this thread bullsht would be this guy...

sb1 said:

Not really. Points allowed is a lousy metric for evaluating a defense if used by itself.

The 2019 and 2021 Patriots gave up the fewest and second fewest points in the league. How did they do against good offenses? They were not "superior" at all.

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Points is the most important stat in football. Turnovers is probably second, because it most correlates to points.

As soon as they start determining wins/losses based on DVOA, some made up stat by PFF, let me know.

This is some real flat earth nonsense you're pushing here.

I read on the internet that if you drink your own urine it will cure any disease you have... you should give it a go.

Wozzy said:

Points is the most important stat in football. Turnovers is probably second, because it most correlates to points.

As soon as they start determining wins/losses based on DVOA, some made up stat by PFF, let me know.

This is some real flat earth nonsense you're pushing here.

I read on the internet that if you drink your own urine it will cure any disease you have... you should give it a go.

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Points against is the laziest stat and doesn’t take into account who they actually played. It’s been beaten over repeatedly showing the difference between when the play good teams as opposed to bad teams. Overall, they’ve been severely overmatched by teams .500 and above since 2020.

In 2023, they allowed almost 28 points per game and went 2-7 against teams .500 and above. That’s not good.

Against teams below .500, they held them to an average of 14 points per game going 1-7. Major difference.

Wozzy said:

What did Brady have that the greatest QB's of his generation didn't?

Hmmm....

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More heart and determination than the other quarterbacks had. It was contagious and helped elevate everyone

Wozzy said:

Points is the most important stat in football. Turnovers is probably second, because it most correlates to points.

As soon as they start determining wins/losses based on DVOA, some made up stat by PFF, let me know.

This is some real flat earth nonsense you're pushing here.

I read on the internet that if you drink your own urine it will cure any disease you have... you should give it a go.

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That is true only if you're talking about one game.

Football is a lot more than a one game season as I'm sure you understand. Or should.

And who did a better job on defense... the team that allowed a 50 yard drive ending in 0 points because their kicker missed a FG or the team that allowed 7 because their QB turned the ball over inside his own 20. PoInTZ aLLoWeD says the first defense did better. Right.

Since 2020 they can beat bad teams consistently, but not so much against good ones. Gee I wonder what changed...