How Belichick lost his place in posterity

Tunescribe said:

Giving Tom the weapons he needed to succeed that year failed, but not for lack of trying. I mean, look at this list. If Antonio Brown could've stuck and even just one of the others rose to the occasion, things could have been entirely different.

Grading Patriots' wide receivers from 2019 season

How did the Patriots wideouts fare throughout the 2019 campaign?

patriotswire.usatoday.com

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The killer was Gronk retiring. It's almost impossible to replace Gronk -- and Brady got him back (along with AB) the next year in Tampa.

Ian said:

100% agree. I feel like we’ve seen it happen with 10 win teams. That’s the only one I remember ever seeing where an 11 win team didn’t get in. Just absolutely insane that it happened.

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I thought Cleveland was one of the teams, but after looking it up the 85 Broncos are the only other team. Funny enough, the Patriots trumped them out by common opponent records. They both missed to 8-8 teams that won their division, the Browns in 85 and and the Chargers in 08.

Zant says Reid would of won more if he was more disciplined. Compared it to his time here.

venecol said:

I appreciate the comparison, but non-winning seasons isn't a thing. There's been >10 teams that made it to the playoffs with an 8-8 record and even won playoff games.

If you were to do the same comparison with losing seasons, you would see the disparity.

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You are correct 0.500 teams have made the playoffs, but so have 7-9 teams so where do you cut off? No 0.500 team have ever got past the divisional round. Whereas a 9-7 team has won it all. Thats my justification anyway, you may not agree.

Running the numbers again to seasons below 0.500 makes little difference in the analysis because BB, Brown, Landry, Noll, Halas, Lambeau and only had a single 0.500 season between the lot of them! Shula would be main beneficiary but the criticism of being great in regular season but average in the playoffs and in SB is unaffected by x4 8-8 seasons.

Patriot Missile said:

The Defense and offense worked hand and hand.

01 Patriots
16-13 over Raiders offense pulls weight

24-17 over Steelers. a blocked kick returned for a td and a punt return for a td. Yeah, we needed the defense/special teams group for that one. Offense pulls weight

20-17 over Rams. A interception return for a td. Forced fumbles, Again defense is important. Offense pulls weight.

03 Patriots

17-14 over Titans. Shut down Co Mvp. Offense pulls weight

24-14 over Colts. 4 interceptions, 4 sacks and a safety by the defense. 5 fgs from AV. Offense pulls weight.

32-29 over Carolina. Barn burner. Brady arrives and puts himself in elite category.

04 Patriots

20-3 over Colts. Shuts down the 49 td thrower. Asante drops interception in end zone that lost shutout. Go figure. Offense pulled its weight.

41-27 over Steelers. Obviously offense is clicking and defense is doing what it can to avenge the Halloween loss.

24-21 over Eagles. Great game offense did what was needed, defense forced turnovers. And Andy Reid and clock management wins the day.

2001 Defense 5th in points allowed
2003 Defense 1st in points allowed
2004 Defense 3rd in point allowed

2001 Offense 5th in scoring
2003 Offense 12th in scoring
2004 Offense 4th in scoring

At the end it doesn’t matter because it was the perfect storm. I didn’t even get into the plus minus because it didn’t bode well for the rest of the league. Tbh though, I never saw the offense exceeding its own weight. First half was primarily defense. But it’s mute because Brady was always able to score more points than the other team when needed depending on the circumstances. That’s why it was a dynasty. A combination of players and coaches doing the job.

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There’s nothing wrong in admitting Tom needed some help in his early years. He was a young/inexperienced QB and they didn’t have much talent on offense. On the other hand, the defense needed stability at QB or else the dynasty never happens as Kraft and Pioli alluded to.

While we saw promise with Tom Brady taking over for Bledsoe, you’re out of your mind if you believe he’d be able to win a shootout against the Raiders or Rams had the defense been trash in 2001. In fact, all of Toms losses in 2002 were against teams .500 and above going 6-7 as opposed to only playing 6 games against teams .500 and above the previous year (3-3 record).

2003 is when he arrived whether games were in control or not as he showed up in every shootout and Branch/Givens were solid WR’s among with Brown/Patten.

Ian said:

I was absolutely disappointed that we didn’t get to see how they would have fared in the playoffs. He actually admitted the same thing in a recent interview. They started coming together at the right time and just got hosed…very frustrating.

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Yes, I remember Cassell talking about it Ina recent interview or it may have been the documentary? But the NFL was more than happy to not see us in the playoffs at 11-5 while putrid NFC teams like Washington and Seattle were sub 500 and got in.

OldEngland said:

You are correct 0.500 teams have made the playoffs, but so have 7-9 teams so where do you cut off? No 0.500 team have ever got past the divisional round. Whereas a 9-7 team has won it all. Thats my justification anyway, you may not agree.

Running the numbers again to seasons below 0.500 makes little difference in the analysis because BB, Brown, Landry, Noll, Halas, Lambeau and only had a single 0.500 season between the lot of them! Shula would be main beneficiary but the criticism of being great in regular season but average in the playoffs and in SB is unaffected by x4 8-8 seasons.

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Just for record keeping if we go with less than 7 wins it cuts the number in half. Only 4 times did he have less than 7 wins.

Interesting that it's the First and last years both here and Cleveland.

Ian said:

Absolutely agree. Imagine if he suddenly had a J'Marr Chase or a Justin Jefferson, it would have been the start of another run and he definitely wouldn't have wanted to leave. Probably would have been thrilled, especially at that point in his career where having someone like that would have changed everything here. Albeit, the contract thing would have remained a frustration that would have needed to be figured out.

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This is why I'm so mad at the travesty of the deflategate 1st round pick loss. Michael Thomas, Derrick Henry, Hunter Henry, Chris Jones, Tyler Boyd and Xavien Howard all went in the next picks. I mean BB could have picked a random unknown safety but imagine Brady with Derrick Henry or Michael Thomas.

signbabybrady said:

Just for record keeping if we go with less than 7 wins it cuts the number in half. Only 4 times did he have less than 7 wins.

Interesting that it's the First and last years both here and Cleveland.

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I also don’t know what the totals are for a new coach coming into a .500 or worse team their first seasons…I feel like it’s not great, barring a badly mismanaged loaded roster. You take two first seasons (6-10, 5-11) and you’re already at 11-21, which pads the argument. Again, context matters.

Although, again, he’s also being penalized for telling Rehbein to go off and scout a QB, and then fighting the owner for said QB the following season vs the $100 million incumbent, and then being penalized again while having success with that same QB, who flawlessly executed their game plan both during the regular season but also the postseason when it mattered most.

Average coaches don’t win six Super Bowls with super star QBs…we’ve certainly seen that. And great coaches rarely win with subpar QBs. They gambled on Mac Jones and lost. But more importantly, Bill gambled on small coaching staffs, didn’t promote from within which saw talented personnel guys/scouts/coaches bail, and got crushed when McDaniels poached his staff after 2021. Add in bad personnel decisions and he set up his own implosion.

It’s unfortunate. But to say what he did on Sundays meant absolutely nothing is not only not true, it devalues everything guys like Bruschi, Law, Harrison, Seymour, Wilfork, Hightower and so many others did here over the years. That’s like calling all those guys JAGS because Brady was here. Not at all the case.

I get people are mad…but calling him a mediocre coach based on the narrative that keeps running on the radio is just so strange to me. I get it - people have their opinions - but I also know how people viewed things here in real time and the fact they’re going back on that now (ie: things like the Cleveland years) is just sort of head scratching.

Ian said:

I also don’t know what the totals are for a new coach coming into a .500 or worse team their first seasons…I feel like it’s not great, barring a badly mismanaged loaded roster. You take two first seasons (6-10, 5-11) and you’re already at 11-21, which pads the argument. Again, context matters.

Although, again, he’s also being penalized for telling Rehbein to go off and scout a QB, and then fighting the owner for said QB the following season vs the $100 million incumbent, and then being penalized again while having success with a player who flawlessly executed their game plan both during the regular season but also the postseason when it mattered most.

Average coaches don’t win six Super Bowls with super star QBs…we’ve certainly seen that. And great coaches rarely win with subpar QBs. They gambled on Mac Jones and lost, But more importantly, Bill gambled on small coaching staffs, didn’t promote from within which saw talented personnel guys/scouts/coaches bail, and got crushed when McDaniels poached his staff after 2021. Add in bad personnel decisions and he set up his own implosion.

It’s unfortunate. But to say what he did on Sundays meant absolutely nothing is not only not true, it devalues everything guys like Bruschi, Law, Harrison, Seymour, Wilfork, Hightower and so many others did here over the years. That’s like calling all those guys JAGS because Brady was here. Not at all the case.

I get people are mad…but calling him a mediocre coach based on the narrative that keeps running on the radio is just so strange to me. I get it - people have their opinions - but I also know how people viewed things here in real time and the fact they’re going back on that now (ie: things like the Cleveland years) is just sort of head scratching.

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I just don’t get why we can’t move on from it. You know? It’s been discussed so many times on here. We witnessed an amazing run and got to see our team win super bowls. The run was never going to last forever…

StockingAnarchyNumber12 said:

I just don’t get why we can’t move on from it. You know? It’s been discussed so many times on here. We witnessed an amazing run and got to see our team win super bowls. The run was never going to last forever…

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I mean, I get it - people want to discuss it, and I'm obviously good with it...at least it's in its own thread. But the "Bill was always terrible/average" argument is the one that frustrates me. We saw so many moments, especially in the postseason, where he made some gutsy calls or recognized something, and it proved to be the difference.

Again, most of those Super Bowls were close games. I would have loved it if Brady could have gone out and run it up from the beginning, but we never had that luxury. Bucs fans did. We certainly didn't. So a lot more had to go right for things to work out.

Lock this sorry thread.

Everyone here absolutely chastised Harbaugh for whining about the rules in that eligible receiver game. 32 other coaches could have done it, yet they ran it and it became illegal because they won.

Yet another moment where a coaching decision changed things because other coaches complained, including how he had them play against the Rams, Colts, etc.

Ian said:

And what I find bizarre about the contingent that seemingly hates Bill is that none of you guys can say a single negative thing about Bowles, who certainly didn't help Brady's final two seasons there. Especially 2021 when even as bad as it was, they still should have gone farther than they did.

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Now you sound like Tuneless. You might as well appoint him the Ombudsman role he so desires.

Ian said:

If you want to talk about a bad coach who was carried by a great QB, that does exist. Tony Dungy - who wouldn't even be among a reputable contingent of coaches save for Payton Manning, given all the talent he wasted during his time in Tampa (with John Gruden being the guy who came in and won it all as soon as he was gone) - absolutely falls into that category.

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This is nonsense. Anyone that lived in Tampa at the time will tell you that Gruden won with Dungy's team.

venecol said:

This is nonsense. Anyone that lived in Tampa at the time will tell you that Gruden won with Dungy's team.

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LOL, Dungy was fired after multiple years of failing to live up to expectations with a talented team. He was not the general manager and did not develop the roster. Your post would actually make sense if you stated that Bruce Allen won with Rich McKay's team. Unfortunately that doesn't work as well for your purposes.

Patriot Missile said:

The Defense and offense worked hand and hand.

01 Patriots
16-13 over Raiders offense pulls weight

24-17 over Steelers. a blocked kick returned for a td and a punt return for a td. Yeah, we needed the defense/special teams group for that one. Offense pulls weight

20-17 over Rams. A interception return for a td. Forced fumbles, Again defense is important. Offense pulls weight.

03 Patriots

17-14 over Titans. Shut down Co Mvp. Offense pulls weight

24-14 over Colts. 4 interceptions, 4 sacks and a safety by the defense. 5 fgs from AV. Offense pulls weight.

32-29 over Carolina. Barn burner. Brady arrives and puts himself in elite category.

04 Patriots

20-3 over Colts. Shuts down the 49 td thrower. Asante drops interception in end zone that lost shutout. Go figure. Offense pulled its weight.

41-27 over Steelers. Obviously offense is clicking and defense is doing what it can to avenge the Halloween loss.

24-21 over Eagles. Great game offense did what was needed, defense forced turnovers. And Andy Reid and clock management wins the day.

2001 Defense 5th in points allowed
2003 Defense 1st in points allowed
2004 Defense 3rd in point allowed

2001 Offense 5th in scoring
2003 Offense 12th in scoring
2004 Offense 4th in scoring

At the end it doesn’t matter because it was the perfect storm. I didn’t even get into the plus minus because it didn’t bode well for the rest of the league. Tbh though, I never saw the offense exceeding it’s own weight. First half was primarily defense. But it’s mute because Brady was always able to score more points than the other team when needed depending on the circumstances. That’s why it was a dynasty. A combination of players and coaches doing the job.

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Let's just discount how Brady did more with less, why don't we.

Ian said:

Everyone was outraged we didn’t make the playoffs that year (literally everyone in here was mad about going 11-5 and not making it). Suddenly, we have people treating that season like it was meaningless and a terrible year. It’s bizarre.

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How so? That year is taken into account in Bill's record w/o Brady. Which is funny because on the other side, people discount entire seasons ('91, '95, '00, '20) just "because." Lol

Kasmir said:

The killer was Gronk retiring. It's almost impossible to replace Gronk -- and Brady got him back (along with AB) the next year in Tampa.

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Yea, Brady was 100% a better GM than Belichick in 2020.

Ian said:

I also don’t know what the totals are for a new coach coming into a .500 or worse team their first seasons…I feel like it’s not great, barring a badly mismanaged loaded roster. You take two first seasons (6-10, 5-11) and you’re already at 11-21, which pads the argument. Again, context matters.

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Lol, you guys.

Ian said:

Although, again, he’s also being penalized for telling Rehbein to go off and scout a QB, and then fighting the owner for said QB the following season vs the $100 million incumbent, and then being penalized again while having success with that same QB, who flawlessly executed their game plan both during the regular season but also the postseason when it mattered most.

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Nobody is doing that.

Ian said:

Average coaches don’t win six Super Bowls with super star QBs…we’ve certainly seen that.

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We're talking about the GOAT. Mahomes is another GOAT-type and he may catch him.

Ian said:

It’s unfortunate. But to say what he did on Sundays meant absolutely nothing is not only not true, it devalues everything guys like Bruschi, Law, Harrison, Seymour, Wilfork, Hightower and so many others did here over the years. That’s like calling all those guys JAGS because Brady was here. Not at all the case.

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Nobody is saying that either.

Ian said:

I get people are mad…but calling him a mediocre coach based on the narrative that keeps running on the radio is just so strange to me. I get it - people have their opinions - but I also know how people viewed things here in real time and the fact they’re going back on that now (ie: things like the Cleveland years) is just sort of head scratching.

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He was a mediocre coach when he didn't have the GOAT QB. Not sure why that's so difficult to understand. You trying to come up with excuses for "portions" of an 11+ season run is what's ridiculous. There's plenty of HCs that never got to coach 11 seasons. That's a very long sample size. It is what it is.