How Belichick lost his place in posterity

signbabybrady · Mar 30, 2024

ahmed said:
It's false equivalency. When people do a list of coaches with SBs, nobody gives Bill 8 just like nobody puts McDaniels on said list with 3.

It's a fact. And pretty much everyone on here knows 2 of them came as DC of the NYG so your just nitpicking cause you don't like the guy.

Ivan · Mar 30, 2024

signbabybrady said:
Rhebein advised his head coach he didn't make the pick.

Belichick had input from scouts and personnel throughout his time here, he ignored most of it, and with a couple of minor exceptions, like letting Ernie Adams make a 7th round pick his last draft, Belichick always made the decision. And the irony here is that the same people who *****ed about Belichick’s picks for literally decades are the ones trying to claim he didn’t make the Brady pick simply because an assistant coach recommended it. You don’t get to have it both ways he doesn’t get the blame for the bad picks without getting the credit for the good ones.

Belichick also made the decision to keep 4 QB’s in 2000, which he never went with, the decision to keep Brady in when Bledsoe returned and then the decision to trade the ‘$100 million QB and keep Brady.

signbabybrady · Mar 30, 2024

Ivan said:
Belichick had input from scouts and personnel throughout his time here, he ignored most of it, and with a couple of minor exceptions, like letting Ernie Adams make a 7th round pick his last draft, Belichick always made the decision. And the irony here is that the same people who *****ed about Belichick’s picks for literally decades are the ones trying to claim he didn’t make the Brady pick simply because an assistant coach recommended it. You don’t get to have it both ways he doesn’t get the blame for the bad picks without getting the credit for the good ones.

Belichick also made the decision to keep 4 QB’s in 2000, which he never went with, the decision to keep Brady in when Bledsoe returned and then the decision to trade the ‘$100 million QB and keep Brady.

I'm sure the people that advised him on Wynn, Sony, Harry, Thornton, and whoever else comes to mind are clamoring to tell everyone all about it. Like you said they were all Bills picks for better or worse. The Rhebein story was always a nice a story about someone who unfortunately passed too soon but that doesn't take it away from Bill.

venecol · Mar 30, 2024

Wax Frog said:
Which ignore-list champion is it this time?

Wax Frog said:
@Ian is there any way to make these images automatically appear in the inbox of a user who starts a BB bashing thread?

Sorry Froggy but you've got to be the weakest sauce on this forum with this ****. This is a football forum, not Romper Room. Grow a pair.

maust · Mar 30, 2024

Ian said:
Again, is what it is. But no point in torturing ourselves over it.

Of late it seems like torturing ourselves over it has become the entire point for half the inmates of this partricular asylum

Patriot Missile · Mar 30, 2024

signbabybrady said:
It's a fact. And pretty much everyone on here knows 2 of them came as DC of the NYG so your just nitpicking cause you don't like the guy.

Wasn’t he hoisted up on Giants players shoulders after that 86 superbowl. What people fail to realize is that he was the defensive coordinator for one of the best most dominating defenses ever in 86 and one of the biggest upsets history.

Sure he didn’t win 8 as a head coach but the two he did win as coordinator were extraordinary and still talked about almost 40 years later. He’s a ****ing Legend and some fans can’t deal with it for some reason.

People talk about Buddy Ryan today with that 85 Bears defense. As the HC at Philadelphia his legendary status grew. Never won as a head coach but his name is still synonymous with greatness.

Tunescribe · Mar 30, 2024

maust said:
Of late it seems like torturing oursleves over it has become the entire point for half the inmates of this partricular asylum

The Tampa Bay Ghetto refugees are wandering the wilderness, struggling mightily in their quest for a new sense of purpose.

signbabybrady · Mar 30, 2024

Patriot Missile said:
Wasn’t he hoisted up on Giants players shoulders after that 86 superbowl. What people fail to realize is that he was the defensive coordinator for one of the best most dominating defenses ever in 86 and one of the biggest upsets history.

Sure he didn’t win 8 as a head coach but the two he did win as coordinator were extraordinary and still talked about almost 40 years later. He’s a ****ing Legend and some fans can’t deal with it for some reason.

People talk about Buddy Ryan today with that 85 Bears defense. As the HC at Philadelphia his legendary status grew. Never won as a head coach but his name is still synonymous with greatness.

venecol · Mar 30, 2024

OldEngland said:
Go on then its off-season. Whatever the motives, thank you for taking the time to put the info together and present it so clearly. However it is difficult to judge only looking at BB and Brady. What happens with other HOF QBs/coaches? To look at this objectively you need to explore comparable data within the modern salary cap era. For this purpose we'll go back to 1991 as fits with BB HC career.

1) Head Coaches.
Let's compare to the six most comparable coaches. The criteria is having had a HOF caliber QB plus being in the overall top 30 winningmost coaches.

Andy Reid.
Chiefs = 0.715 x3 SB. Eagles = 0.583. X0SB
Mike Tomlin
With Rapist 0.641 x1SB. Without Rapist = 0.527 x0SB
Mike McCarthy.
With Rogers = 0.618 x1SB. With Dak = 0.627. X0SB
Tony Dungy
With Manning = .0.736 x1SB. Without Manning 0.549 x0SB
Sean Payton
With Brees = 0.631 x1SB. Without Brees = 0.500 x0SB.
Mike Holmgren
With Favre = 0.670. Without Favre 0.541.

For completeness other coaches of note on the top 30 with SB wins without a HOF QB: John Harbaugh = 0.612, Tom Coughlin = 0.547. Pete Carroll = 0.587.

Tomlin, Payton, Holmgren and Dungy all dip below 0.550 without a HOF QB. Reid is highest dipping to 0.583 but he had Smith and McNab who are 21/22 on all time wins list. Holmgren and Reid got to a SB without their HOF QB but lost. I don't know what to say about McCarthy having a better record without Rogers! BB has a much larger SB win success rate with the HOF QB but also a larger drop off than the others without one.

Conclusion.
All coaches did worse without a HOF QB. Reid and BB were the only HCs to have turned having a HOF QB into mulitiple superbowl successes. Payton and Tomlin good case studies over next years.

2) QBs.
Criteria is top 100 most winningnest QBs list plus above 0.600 win %. Let's look at other QBs.

Mahomes = 0.771 x3SB
Brady with BB = 0.769 x6SB
Lamar =0.753 x0SB
Peyton = 0.702 x2SB
Josh Allen = 0.677 x0SB
Rapist = 0.670 x2SB
Rogers = 0.663 x1SB
Brady without BB = 0.649 x1SB.
Prescott = 0.640 x0SB
Favre = 0.625 x1SB
Russell Wilson = 0.614 x1SB
McNab = 0.612 x0SB
Brees = 0.601 x1SB
* Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson and Allen obviously have much smaller sample than the others but are included as active. Alex Smith, Goff, Rivers, Ryan, Flacco, and Eli all were on the 100 list but below 0.600 so not included.

Conclusion.
Brady's 0.649 without BB is excellent ( and he was 42+!), but this is not in the same otherworldly elite 0.769 category as with BB. Brady with BB, and Mahomes with Reid are outliers when it comes to SB wins. Brady with BB has the same amount of SBs as Peyton, Rapist, Rogers and Brees combined. HOF QBs and borderline ones have a shot a getting a SB, x2 if team stacked. Statistically Brady without BB is still HOF quality but in the pack of Brees, Rogers and Rapist rather than GOAT with win%. Lamar Jackson just a huge outlier.

Overall in the modern salary cap era:
1) a HOF quality QB AND coach are needed to have a dynasty;
2) a head coach who has won a SB with a HOF QB has not won another SB without his HOF QB in the modern era. With no QB they are below average, with a good one have made SBs but lost.
3) A HOF QB without a HOF coach might only get x1 SB in their career, or x2 if end up on stacked teams.
4) The second half of Mahomes career without Reid is worth watching, as is how Tomlin, McCarthy and Payton do without their HOF QBs.
5) Peyton Manning must be pissed he came up again BB and Brady.
6) There is a parallel universe with Lamar and BB that would be quite interesting.
7) Andy Reid really has an HOF career, but has the luxury of multiple high quality QBs.

Final thoughts
A criticism BB wasn't a HOF standard coach without Brady is unfair, as no other coach has come close either. The criticism BB is average at best without Brady is perfectly valid, he does worse than other similar coaches without their HOF QB. BB got more success out of Brady than any other HC got from any other HOF QB by some measure (with Mahomes/Reid the closest and still active).

P.s this makes me want Mayo to just draft whatever QB he has the feeling about.

Excellent breakdown.

Despite all the so-called context that @Ian and everyone wants to assign to Bill's terrible record (you can do that with everyone), your list conclusively shows that Bill was a sub .500 HC w/o Brady, which isn't the case for any of the other HCs you listed. There's something to be said of that.

Bill was also the HC & GM during his entire time w/o Brady, which not all of these other HCs were.

Finally, and this is more telling, Bill had 8 losing seasons w/o Brady. That's an extraordinary amount of losing. None of those HCs had 8 losing seasons in their entire career.

Lossing seasons:

Bill Belichick: 8 in 29 years (.276)

Andy Reid: 3 in 25 years (.120)
Mike Tomlin: 0 in 17 years (.000)
Mike McCarthy: 4 in 17 years (.235)
Tony Dungy: 1 in 13 years (.077)
Sean Payton: 5 in 16 years (.312)
Mike Holmgren: 3 in 17 years (.176)

signbabybrady · Mar 30, 2024

venecol said:
Excellent breakdown.

Despite all the so-called context that @Ian and everyone wants to assign to Bill's terrible record (you can do that with everyone), your list conclusively shows that Bill was a sub .500 HC w/o Brady, which isn't the case for any of the other HCs you listed. There's something to be said of that.

Bill was also the HC & GM during his entire time w/o Brady, which not all of these other HCs were.

Finally, and this is more telling, Bill had 8 losing seasons w/o Brady. That's an extraordinary amount of losing. None of those HCs had 8 losing seasons in their entire career.

Lossing seasons:

Bill Belichick: 8 in 29 years (.276)

Andy Reid: 3 in 25 years (.120)
Mike Tomlin: 0 in 17 years (.000)
Mike McCarthy: 4 in 17 years (.235)
Tony Dungy: 1 in 13 years (.077)
Sean Payton: 5 in 16 years (.312)
Mike Holmgren: 3 in 17 years (.176)

venecol · Mar 30, 2024

Pointing out that Belichick is an average (at best) HC w/o a HOF QB isn't some gotcha moment, it's a fact.

Why does Team Bill cringe whenever this fact is brought up. Why are they so triggered by reality? That doesn't take anything away from Belichick's overall career. It is what it is.

When you look at Belichick's career, he's been extremely lucky. He was a DC under a HOF HC and had the GOAT Defensive player. As a HC he had the GOAT QB. You could say that Belichick is the LOAT (luckiest if all time).

MrBigglesWorth · Mar 30, 2024

The more we see and hear the more it appears kraft meddled

venecol · Mar 30, 2024

Ian said:
Having two guys who are both clutch in big moments is so unusual, and we were all very fortunate to witness it. We had two of the best to ever do it. That’s really all any of us can sort of take away from it and trying to pin it one way or the other is just something that takes away from that dynamic.

Sorry Ian, but I never saw Belichick play a single snap. You can't call a non player clutch in a game. It doesn't work that way. Now Brady is the clutchest player of all time. We can agree there.

PATSNUTme · Mar 30, 2024

While using all my will power to remain respectful to the OP. This **** has to stop sometime. Why not today, please.

signbabybrady · Mar 30, 2024

venecol said:
Sorry Ian, but I never saw Belichick play a single snap. You can't call a non player clutch in a game. It doesn't work that way. Now Brady is the clutchest player of all time. We can agree there.

You say some ridiculous things sometimes. This one takes the cake. Pretty sure the Giants players who carried him off the field felt he came up clutch. I'll spare the 100s of clutch examples over 20 years here and the countless chokes by many other coaches throughout NFL history.

And let's just spare everyone the back and forth on this one. Let's assume I gave some specific examples of Bill coming up big in big moments. Then we can assume you'll give some examples of him making a mistake in a clutch moment because why would you skip a chance to take that jab when you can. Both sides of this argument will only go to show that for better worse coaches have clutch moments too and your original statement was ridiculous.

maust · Mar 30, 2024

signbabybrady said:
You say some ridiculous things sometimes. This one takes the cake. Pretty sure the Giants players who carried him off the field felt he came up clutch. I'll spare the 100s of clutch examples over 20 years here and the countless chokes by many other coaches throughout NFL history.

None more ballsy than letting the clock run against Seattle. BB had some big ol' brass ones there, with everyone in his headset looking for a timeout. BB at his finest, keeping his wits while everyone else was losing their ish

Tunescribe · Mar 30, 2024

venecol said:
Excellent breakdown.

Despite all the so-called context that @Ian and everyone wants to assign to Bill's terrible record (you can do that with everyone), your list conclusively shows that Bill was a sub .500 HC w/o Brady, which isn't the case for any of the other HCs you listed. There's something to be said of that.

Bill was also the HC & GM during his entire time w/o Brady, which not all of these other HCs were.

Finally, and this is more telling, Bill had 8 losing seasons w/o Brady. That's an extraordinary amount of losing. None of those HCs had 8 losing seasons in their entire career.

Lossing seasons:

Bill Belichick: 8 in 29 years (.276)

Andy Reid: 3 in 25 years (.120)
Mike Tomlin: 0 in 17 years (.000)
Mike McCarthy: 4 in 17 years (.235)
Tony Dungy: 1 in 13 years (.077)
Sean Payton: 5 in 16 years (.312)
Mike Holmgren: 3 in 17 years (.176)

venecol said:
Pointing out that Belichick is an average (at best) HC w/o a HOF QB isn't some gotcha moment, it's a fact.

Why does Team Bill cringe whenever this fact is brought up. Why are they so triggered by reality? That doesn't take anything away from Belichick's overall career. It is what it is.

When you look at Belichick's career, he's been extremely lucky. He was a DC under a HOF HC and had the GOAT Defensive player. As a HC he had the GOAT QB. You could say that Belichick is the LOAT (luckiest if all time).

venecol said:
Sorry Ian, but I never saw Belichick play a single snap. You can't call a non player clutch in a game. It doesn't work that way. Now Brady is the clutchest player of all time. We can agree there.

Patriot Missile · Mar 30, 2024

venecol said:
Excellent breakdown.

Despite all the so-called context that @Ian and everyone wants to assign to Bill's terrible record (you can do that with everyone), your list conclusively shows that Bill was a sub .500 HC w/o Brady, which isn't the case for any of the other HCs you listed. There's something to be said of that.

Bill was also the HC & GM during his entire time w/o Brady, which not all of these other HCs were.

Finally, and this is more telling, Bill had 8 losing seasons w/o Brady. That's an extraordinary amount of losing. None of those HCs had 8 losing seasons in their entire career.

Lossing seasons:

Bill Belichick: 8 in 29 years (.276)

Andy Reid: 3 in 25 years (.120)
Mike Tomlin: 0 in 17 years (.000)
Mike McCarthy: 4 in 17 years (.235)
Tony Dungy: 1 in 13 years (.077)
Sean Payton: 5 in 16 years (.312)
Mike Holmgren: 3 in 17 years (.176)

You can pull out all the stats out of your ass you want. It doesn’t diminish his accomplishments as a head coach. Every head coach will tell you it’s about the players. Let’s take away McNabb and Mahomes from Reid and see how that works? Losing seasons are so overblown by you guys. Nobody gives a **** except for the people hating on the guy the last 4 years.

6 Super Bowls and 2 as a coordinator. Your argument wil always fall short. Always. If Walsh didn’t draft Montana in the 3rd he’s a never was. If Shula didn’t have Unitas and Marino he doesn’t hold the best record ever. You get it? We don’t care about your crusade to discredit Belichick the coach. We don’t care about his record without Brady. We know he wouldn’t of won 6 Superbowls as a head coach without Brady. You just seem to forget about the rest of it. The preparation, the game plans, the culture he helped create.

To me you are a negative algorithm on this board when it comes to BB and I honestly thought you’d just let it go after the firing. But you can’t. I don’t know what year you were born or when you started watching the Patriots but there was a time not too long ago when he was the best ever. Certainly not the last 4 years, he’s had some hiccups throughout his 20+ seasons drafting along with the Butler decision as well as others.

I just find it odd that a fan defends his legacy and you take your personal badge honor to try to destroy the guy once again. He was the Head coach of this franchise for a lot of good years. Two dynasties. I never hear or read 49er fans ****ting on Bill Walsh or Dallas or Pittsburgh fans taking a dump on Landry or Knoll. No one questioning how good they would of been without their franchise qb.

Venecol is entitled to his opinion and free to put out whatever data, agree or disagree with whatever he wants regarding Belichick. It’s what makes the board great.

ahmed · Mar 30, 2024

signbabybrady said:
It's a fact. And pretty much everyone on here knows 2 of them came as DC of the NYG so your just nitpicking cause you don't like the guy.

Yes it's a fact he won them as a DC. Nobody ever mentions any non HC accomplishments when judging HCs. That is also a fact. McDaniels is a horrible HC even though he won 3 as an OC.

Some people on here love to mention 8 rings and the only reason I can think of is insecurity around Brady having 7. No HC even has 5 so that's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I soured on Bill because of his costly decisions since 2017 SB as I said many times. Does not change the fact that I will always have a soft spot for him, respect him and think he is the best coach ever. Some people for whatever reason have a hard time with this concept. One other thing, I have never worshipped coaches and its weird to me how some people worship them so much.

It's not about Bill either. It's me. I am a Liverpool fan (not as die hard as I am for Pats but close enough) and Klopp is a great coach who has a very likeable personality (complete opposite of Bill). He is worshipped by Liverpool fans more than any coach in the NFL by their base and while I like him, the liking really is directly proportional to his winning. He is leaving this summer and most fans are heart broken about it. While I am disappointed I am much more worried about losing the winning and not so much losing him.

I have much more empathy towards the players (not even close) which is why getting rid of Brady was as unforgivable to me as anything any coach has ever done. And doing it without a plan and crapping the bed after made it so much worse. Boils my blood just thinking about it.

There will be a time when this wound heals and only fondness will remain for Bill - well mostly because I never liked his attitude with press which was how I interacted with him. But that will take some time.

Tunescribe · Mar 30, 2024

Patriot Missile said:
You can pull out all the stats out of your ass you want. It doesn’t diminish his accomplishments as a head coach. Every head coach will tell you it’s about the players. Let’s take away McNabb and Mahomes from Reid and see how that works? Losing seasons are so overblown by you guys. Nobody gives a **** except for the people hating on the guy the last 4 years.

6 Super Bowls and 2 as a coordinator. Your argument wil always fall short. Always. If Walsh didn’t draft Montana in the 3rd he’s a never was. If Shula didn’t have Unitas and Marino he doesn’t hold the best record ever. You get it? We don’t care about your crusade to discredit Belichick the coach. We don’t care about his record without Brady. We know he wouldn’t of won 6 Superbowls as a head coach without Brady. You just seem to forget about the rest of it. The preparation, the game plans, the culture he helped create.

To me you are a negative algorithm on this board when it comes to BB and I honestly thought you’d just let it go after the firing. But you can’t. I don’t know what year you were born or when you started watching the Patriots but there was a time not too long ago when he was the best ever. Certainly not the last 4 years, he’s had some hiccups throughout his 20+ seasons drafting along with the Butler decision as well as others.

I just find it odd that a fan defends his legacy and you take your personal badge honor to try to destroy the guy once again. He was the Head coach of this franchise for a lot of good years. Two dynasties. I never hear or read 49er fans ****ting on Bill Walsh or Dallas or Pittsburgh fans taking a dump on Landry or Knoll. No one questioning how good they would of been without their franchise qb.

Venecol is entitled to his opinion and free to put out whatever data, agree or disagree with whatever he wants regarding Belichick. It’s what makes the board great.

Spot-on post save for those last two sentences. He's pathologically butthurt over Brady leaving and blames Belichick, hence the irrational hate-campaign agenda with no end in sight.

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