Edelman & D. Thomas back at practice; Gordon in warmups

Just saw Thomas was activated off the PUP. Amazing the difference a couple weeks makes in terms of WR projections.

SBLIII said:

why would a 1st round pick be better than a 7th round pick without having played any games?

Right now they have 2 good receivers, 2 rookies and 1 question mark. This isn't close to having the best WR room in football. It's however not among the worst anymore as it was pre Gordon and pre draft.

Click to expand...

I'd consider Gordon and Edelman (when healthy and available) as better than good; those two are great, upper-echelon receivers.

Beyond that, I do agree that things are a bit less certain but I feel fairly confident that Harry will, if nothing else, be a viable red-area threat.

I feel confident in Meyers to immediately produce and expect him to be WR3 behind Edelman and Gordon in week 1, pending Thomas' recovery.

Thomas ultimately comes down to health; if he's healthy and 80-90% of his former self, he may assume the WR3 role ahead of Harry and Meyers.

And finally we have Dorsett and Harris, who I think are battling for one roster spot ... or perhaps no spot, with the aforementioned in front of them. I'd be inclined to give the nod to Harris due to his size and natural route-running/catching ability. However Dorsett has settled in recently and appears to be a known-commodity, even if his potential is capped at this point.

We shall see, but this team certainly is top-5, perhaps top-3 in terms of potential at the WR position. If they come together well, I don't think it's unreasonable to say they're a top-tier WR grouping league-wide ... but again, some uncertainty and much that needs to occur to reach that point, but I don't think it's necessarily far-fetched or unlikely that they reach their full potential.

This is how I see the WR group so far.

The Rookies:

Harry - Gordon's arrival will give him time to gradually assume the primary boundary receiver role, rather to be just thrown into the mix. He will get his reps, but it will now be a controlled development which I believe will be better for the long term.

Meyers - He'll be the back up slot guy for us. To me he's definitely a slot guy, maybe a different kind of slot guy than we've been used to, but a slot guy nonetheless. And I think he'll be a good one.

The Old Guys -

Edelman - Jules is Jules. If I have to tell you what we have in him, you haven't been watching the Pats the last decade.

Thomas - Thomas has been a REALLY good WR from most of the past decade. But given his age and more importantly his torn achilles just 8 months ago, I haven't a clue about what we have in him. About all I know is Brady likes the guy personally.... and Thomas seems to like being here.

But I DO know the questions we want to know the answers to. Is he Gordon's back up and if he drops off the wagon protection? Is he Harry's Mentor as a boundary receiver and starts in front of him, with Gordon on the other side and Edelman in the middle? Or is he another good older receiver who comes here for a cup of coffee and then vanishes from our collective consciousness? But all we know now is.....nothing.

The other guys

Dorsett - He's the speed guy who offers a change of pace and can fit in anywhere on the outside. In other words, same job as last year.....WHICH he did well in.

Harris - "Can't make the club from the tub" If he's not back soon he's gone regardless. But if he does get back, he's the guy who is there in case Meyers is just a camp sensation and not real, and in case Thomas is really done.

Barrios - I hope he has a long and productive career in the XFL. He's doesn't quite have the explosive quickness to be the next great white slot guy in NE.

Olesheski - Here's a guy who DOES have that quickness, but given that he was a CB in D-2 program last season, he really needs to be on the PS for at least another season.

Patterson - Well, he'll always have that great catch in a preseason game to tell his grand kids about.

SBLIII said:

why would a 1st round pick be better than a 7th round pick without having played any games?

Right now they have 2 good receivers, 2 rookies and 1 question mark. This isn't close to having the best WR room in football. It's however not among the worst anymore as it was pre Gordon and pre draft.

Click to expand...

Labeling Jules as good makes my point your not giving him proper credit.

I just meant pair Jules up with anyone and they compare pretty favorable to anyone. It just sounds better to call that anyone a first rounder. But gimme Jules and Meyers and I'll stack them up vs most too.

TommyBrady12 said:

Not yet, but they certainly appear to be the deepest

Click to expand...

Fair enough.

Deus Irae said:

Dorsett's 25 y/o season was clearly superior to Patten's.

Click to expand...

And after 2 years with Brady Patten had 112 catches for 1573 yards and 9 TD’s. Dorsett has 44 for 484 yards and 3 touchdowns. What does being 25 years old have to do with anything?

patsinthesnow said:

WR trios considered the best in football:

• Minnesota - Thielen, Diggs, Beebe
• Houston - Hopkins, Fuller, Coutee
• Atlanta - Jones, Ridley, Sanu
• Los Angeles Rams - Cooks, Woods, Kupp
• Cleveland - Beckham Jr, Landry, Higgins

The Pats group is probably right there after the top trios. Their tough to rate as their floor is relatively low & their ceiling is with the best of them. I'd also argue the pats WR 4/5 are more intriguing than most teams in Harry/Meyers.

Click to expand...

Lol our “top trio” has a guy who is suspended every 5 minutes and a guy who has never caught a pass. Not exactly Theilen and Diggs.

I diddnt realize that a borderline HOF WR was just considered good.

Fascinating.

patsinthesnow said:

WR trios considered the best in football:

• Minnesota - Thielen, Diggs, Beebe
• Houston - Hopkins, Fuller, Coutee
• Atlanta - Jones, Ridley, Sanu
• Los Angeles Rams - Cooks, Woods, Kupp
• Cleveland - Beckham Jr, Landry, Higgins

The Pats group is probably right there after the top trios. Their tough to rate as their floor is relatively low & their ceiling is with the best of them. I'd also argue the pats WR 4/5 are more intriguing than most teams in Harry/Meyers.

Click to expand...

I think top 3 comparisons are pretty much just intellectual exercises. All I'm worrying about for the defending Superbowl champs is does THIS group of WR's have the potential to be better than the group we had last season? Right now, on paper and assuming everything goes according to plan , yes it does.

Unfortunately, whether it will or not when we look back on the 2019 season, remains to be seen.

203Pat said:

Lol our “top trio” has a guy who is suspended every 5 minutes and a guy who has never caught a pass. Not exactly Theilen and Diggs.

Click to expand...

Gordon's suspension history should have zero impact on how we evaluate the Patriots' WR group. Last year he showed that when available he's still THAT good. The notion that he could be suspended has no impact on how he plays when he's on the field.

Any receiver from the aforementioned groups could suffer an injury at any time, taking them off the field in effectively the same manner as a hypothetical Gordon suspension.

signbabybrady said:

Who cares how old they were when they did it?

Click to expand...

Anyone with a brain.

signbabybrady said:

Patten and Givens careers are done. Dorsett is still hoping to put up numbers like they did. You might have good reason to think he will but he hasn't yet and I will be thrilled when/if he does. I like him and I agree he got a little burried by Gordon last year but don't pretend cherry picking a small part of Givens or Pattens career is not a twist.

Click to expand...

Dorsett's numbers are better than Patten's to this point in their respective careers, and noting that is not cherry picking, but common sense, so you're talking out of your ass on this. Patten played 12 NFL seasons. During those 12 seasons, he topped 30 receptions only 5 times (38, 51, 61, 44, 54). Dorsett's already done it twice, at age 25.

The great thing is that we have a lot of viable options in the passing game. Lot of depth at WR and pass-catching RB. TE is very meh, but does not need to be a focus. We can spread the D and run OR pass... go long or short in the passing game.

We.have versatily and that's a great thing. We should be VERY difficult to defend if everyone is healthy and BB/Josh will be able to vary things even more than usual.

I might be overly optimistic, but with Gordon and DT activated, I am very excited about this group.

dreighver said:

Gordon's suspension history should have zero impact on how we evaluate the Patriots' WR group. Last year he showed that when available he's still THAT good. The notion that he could be suspended has no impact on how he plays when he's on the field.

Any receiver from the aforementioned groups could suffer an injury at any time, taking them off the field in effectively the same manner as a hypothetical Gordon suspension.

Click to expand...

dreighver said:

Gordon's suspension history should have zero impact on how we evaluate the Patriots' WR group. Last year he showed that when available he's still THAT good. The notion that he could be suspended has no impact on how he plays when he's on the field.

Any receiver from the aforementioned groups could suffer an injury at any time, taking them off the field in effectively the same manner as a hypothetical Gordon suspension.

Click to expand...

Zero impact? This from a team that preaches “the most important ability is availability”.

203Pat said:

What does being 25 years old have to do with anything?

Click to expand...

How does one compare a player who's still active, and only 4 years into his career, to a player who played a dozen seasons, but hasn't been on the field in more than 10 years, when people are talking about an overall career? Please tell me the one and only true way. I'll publish it and become the richest man in sports analysis.

203Pat said:

Zero impact? This from a team that preaches “the most important ability is availability”.

Click to expand...

Yes, zero impact. If Gordon is not suspended then he will play; when he plays, he's exceptional.

The topic of discussion isn't "team with the WR group most likely to make it through the entire season". The topic of discussion is, "which is the most talented/skilled WR group in the NFL?".

Deus Irae said:

Fascinating take. Let's go to the tape, shall we? Dorsett in the 2018 season was 25 years old, so let's compare the players at that stage:

Dorsett: 32 catches on 42 targets, for 290 yards
Patten: 9 catchs on 28 targets, for 115 yards
Givens: 59 catches on 96 targets, for 726 yards

So, he's well ahead of Patten, and comfortably behind Givens, at the same ages.

Click to expand...

100% true. Though it might be just slightly relevant to note the players throwing the ball:

Givens: Tom Brady
Dorsett: Tom Brady
Patten: Kent Graham/Kerry Collins

Patten turned into a different player as soon as he left that dreadful Giants team.

patchick said:

100% true. Though it might be just slightly relevant to note the players throwing the ball:

Givens: Tom Brady
Dorsett: Tom Brady
Patten: Kent Graham/Kerry Collins

Patten turned into a different player as soon as he left that dreadful Giants team.

Click to expand...

I have no problem talking context, which is what you're adding. Unfortunately, the people I was responding to seem to oppose it. Just to follow up on Patten, by the way:

David Patten averaged 27 receptions per year, over the course of his career.
David Patten averaged 393 yards per season, over the course of his career.
David Patten averaged 2 TDs per season, over the course of his career.

And almost all of that production came beginning after he turned 26. His entire career, prior to turning 26, consisted of 33 receptions in 3 seasons.

So, the idea that Dorsett is hoping to be as good as Patten is a bit silly, without context being added to the claim. Dorsett's clearly been better, or at least more productive, to this point in his career. The Givens comparison, on the other hand, is all in Givens' favor to the same point. Notably, given the discussion, Givens' 25 y/o season was basically the end of his career. He went to Tennessee the following year, played in just 5 games, and suffered a career ending injury.

203Pat said:

Lol our “top trio” has a guy who is suspended every 5 minutes and a guy who has never caught a pass. Not exactly Theilen and Diggs.

Click to expand...

Edelman, Gordon, Thomas.

I wouldn't count chickens before they're hatched. Thomas has to see if his achilies is completely healed, i ruptured every tricep tendens in both elbows, it took eight months before i could go back to work, and i had a pretty non physical job. At eight months my elbows were still sore. Then if he can run and cut he still has to pick up the system which has proven difficult for other wide outs such as chad johnson, and marvin harrison.

Deus Irae said:

How does one compare a player who's still active, and only 4 years into his career, to a player who played a dozen seasons, but hasn't been on the field in more than 10 years, when people are talking about an overall career? Please tell me the one and only true way. I'll publish it and become the richest man in sports analysis.

Click to expand...

If this is about overall career then one would assume Patten wins as he played longer and has more stats. If this is about who is a better receiver I would say it’s Patten has he performed much better playing with Brady in a much more running game dominated era. I’m still not really sure how this is even a debate. Dorsett would be lucky to end up like David Patten at this point in Dorsett’s career.