Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Damn I missed it.

Started out as a somewhat reasonable public service announcement that there’s nothing wrong with Kraft for having urges at his age and that biologically there is nothing weird about it. Then took a really strange turn at the end by saying that throughout human history, the price of women is at its highest at they approach puberty and the price decreases the further they get from that. Not sure if it’s true or not but was disturbing and didn’t belong in this context. Also the poster seemed to be a little too personally invested in it..it was just weird.

 

[Drewski]

Your take may not be wrong, but let’s consider the consequences here. Legally (and many would argue that morally as well), the law is built on the concept of foreseeable risks. In other words, if you walk into a run and tug parlor, a reasonable person would be taking a risk that s/he is engaging in illegal prostitution, but a reasonable person would not likely (and the actual charge against Kraft speaks to this) know they are also engaging in, supporting, or committing a higher crime involving human trafficking.

Kind of like this: you live in Miami in 1990. You know that cocaine is illegal but decide to buy some from a Colombian dealer in the area. It is well known that Pablo Escobar runs the drug trade and operates a murderous cartel that is responsible for the deaths of many Columbians. You could probably make the connection that you are in fact directly involved in a business transaction with Pablo Escobar. If you get caught with cocaine, should you be implicated in helping the Medellin Cartel and be responsible for thousands of gang related deaths and political assassinations, or should you just be charged with illegally buying a bag of cocaine?

When people buy illegal substances or illegal services, there is almost always some dark strings attached to it because they are available in a dark underworld of crime. This is a consequence of making these things illegal to begin with.

OT: This is how this country does this type of thing.

I remember that doozy a commercial post 9-11 that was basically saying "If you smoke weed, you support terrorism!"

George HW Bush's 1989 "Drug Policy" speech had many of the same echos to it ....who is to blame? Anyone that uses. Anyone that sells it....and everyone who turns the other way!





See Also:

The Anti Drug - Terrorists - (2002) :30 (USA)

 

[juny]

Your take may not be wrong, but let’s consider the consequences here. Legally (and many would argue that morally as well), the law is built on the concept of foreseeable risks. In other words, if you walk into a run and tug parlor, a reasonable person would be taking a risk that s/he is engaging in illegal prostitution, but a reasonable person would not likely (and the actual charge against Kraft speaks to this) know they are also engaging in, supporting, or committing a higher crime involving human trafficking.

Kind of like this: you live in Miami in 1990. You know that cocaine is illegal but decide to buy some from a Colombian dealer in the area. It is well known that Pablo Escobar runs the drug trade and operates a murderous cartel that is responsible for the deaths of many Columbians. You could probably make the connection that you are in fact directly involved in a business transaction with Pablo Escobar. If you get caught with cocaine, should you be implicated in helping the Medellin Cartel and be responsible for thousands of gang related deaths and political assassinations, or should you just be charged with illegally buying a bag of cocaine?

When people buy illegal substances or illegal services, there is almost always some dark strings attached to it because they are available in a dark underworld of crime. This is a consequence of making these things illegal to begin with.

You have valid points and I wasn't saying whether or not Kraft knew if the workers were coerced or not. I was replying to the comment that it was a consensual act when it was not

 

[bobbutts]

Once I make my first billion I am going to retire from visiting strip malls altogether.

 

[BobDigital]

My thoughts.

#1 This is first and foremost the fault of every voter in the USA. For years we have refused to change the laws and for years it has led to bad outcomes. When you keep prostitution illegal things like human trafficking or under age prostitution become more common and harder to control. Not to mention the spread of disease and the abuse of pimps. This has gone on way too long. Just make it legal, control it, tax it and be done with it.

#2 Kraft shouldn't have gone to that particular place. While the owner of a brothel or a massage parlor will no doubt always try to convince clients who are curious that the ladies are willing. Most people know better than to ask as they could lead to denial of service or an angry outburst by the pimps/providers. There is no way Kraft should have known or would have been told of such women were willing or not at such a location. Best to avoid them for moral reasons. He could have easily paid for a high end escort who he knew was on the up and up. Still. Bad judgement doesn't mean a bad person.

#3 The police didn't do a good job here. They had a case on all these place for months. Yet they allowed the service to continue and continue. What were they waiting for? Why let it go on? Was it just to up the arrest numbers on Johns? If so that is a pretty crappy reason. I think questions should be asked about the investigation.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

How much can $59 buy these days anyway with everything so expensive?

I think that they offered senior citizen discounts before 5 PM

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

here is a link I found.

https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/74/98/64c708b942ac9a24ed0e40f57db0/hua-pc.pdf

He is #12. They said that on the news. Grey hair with blue long sleeved shirt. He got a tug only, was there for 30 minutes. Paid by CC and cash at desk. Some of the Johns got oral etc. most of the Johns paid cash tip to masseuse after service. Or it could be a fee for whatever little extra they provided. Kraft paid his at desk it seems. He did not pay the girl directly

 

[PittPatriot]

Right it should be used to bring more awareness to the issue but it doesn’t automatically mean Kraft knew that was what was going on. There’s a ton a massage parlors in this country and not all the women are trafficked.

Yes. And a guy like Kraft should’ve known the difference.
Most of us would have

 

[Quest4SevenHomie]

I'm so glad this didn't come out during SuperBowl week.

Why the hell not? That would've made Super Bowl weekend so much more fun.

 

[wheresmosi]

One thing I haven't seen discussed much (though I skipped over several pages), is why would he deny this, given that they allegedly have him on film. Here are some possibilities:

1) he is just lying in a kneejerk defensive moment

2) he thinks they are likely bluffing and is calling their bluff

3) he thinks they might have him on film but doesn't think it will reveal conclusively that anything illegal occurred

4) they think they have him on film but it might be someone who looks like him

(NOTE: we know he has attended the place, but we don't know how they correlated the alleged film to him)

5) (something I've not seen mentioned)--something was done to him without him requesting, in hopes of framing him (they know he's rich--a film of him paying, and then someone grabs him--if there is no audio, can you prove this was requested? it could be a set up, or it could fall under 3 above)

6) he is on film, and he did do something illegal, but he might not know it is illegal (unlikely, but it is conceivable that something could count as a sex act legally that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to everyone constituted one--everyone is assuming what it is, but I do not know if that has been specified)

1) certainly happens a lot, but you'd like to think he wouldn't be that lame if he has good reason they have something clear cut on him. 2 is plausible, but seems like a big gamble. 3 makes more sense, if he is already considering a legal strategy (same with 5, but then at least he could see why they accusing him--but that would still fit his saying he did nothing wrong). 4 seems a bit of a stretch, but not ridiculous (and sort of overlaps with 2--he might think it is not sure that they really have HIM on tape, but can try to make a case that someone is probably him, etc.)

In human practice, 1 seems the most likely, but somewhat less likely than usual for the reasons I give. It could still be the most likely overall, though. I think 2 and 3 remain moderately plausible (but 3 somewhat more so). 4, 5, and 6 seem less likely, but can't be ruled out. Putting these together, I think it ends up being 50-50 they really have enough on him, and if they don't, its 50-50 whether or not he did do something and managed to get away with it, or really wasn't guilty of a crime in the first place. That means to me it is probably 75-25 he actually did something illegal. NOt something you celebrate, but 25% still deserves not jumping to conclusions.

Of course, all of this is separate about whether or not it is a "good look" to go to a place like this in the first place.

Just my thoughts.

 

[scout]

It's possible Kraft was driving down the street and saw the establishment. On a lark, frequented the place and paid for a service. Was this the first time here? Did he have a habit of visiting these places? If he wasn't caught, then the slave ring would have never made national news. That is the disgrace of all this.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Its embarrassing.

My truck has Pats stuff all over it. Some guy in another car rolled his window down and asked me where he could get a massage. Before, I used to get the finger when they saw me on the road.

Oh c'mon. He's messing with you. He already knows where.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I see the “creepy” thread from last night got deleted. One of the strangest things I’ve ever seen on here.

Well, at least we know now where the incels spend their Saturday nights ...

 

[Drewski]

He is #12. They said that on the news. Grey hair with blue long sleeved shirt. He got a tug only, was there for 30 minutes. Paid by CC and cash at desk. Some of the Johns got oral etc. most of the Johns paid cash tip to masseuse after service. Or it could be a fee for whatever little extra they provided. Kraft paid his at desk it seems. He did not pay the girl directly

Geez paid by CCD?

Didn’t Jerry Springer teach us anything?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He is #12. They said that on the news. Grey hair with blue long sleeved shirt. He got a tug only, was there for 30 minutes. Paid by CC and cash at desk. Some of the Johns got oral etc. most of the Johns paid cash tip to masseuse after service. Or it could be a fee for whatever little extra they provided. Kraft paid his at desk it seems. He did not pay the girl directly

If this is accurate, this is not an open and shut case. According to the report, he paid in advance. Other guys handed cash directly to the masseuse/prostitute after the act. It should be pointed out that massages cost money.

I’m not sure this is even a real trial since it’s just a misdemeanor, though. I imagine the judge just makes a decision within a few minutes, and this isn’t a beyond reasonable doubt standard?

 

[mosslost]

Which is why focusing on johns is a pretty silly strategy. It's a scourge, because the way it's being prosecuted is severely defunct. Focus energies on the human traffickers, the ones running the operation from behind the scenes.

they need to crush the demand.

 

[mosslost]

You were pretty strong there in your convictions about being illegal in all 50 states.

i was not correct

 

[mosslost]

As always, you don't know what you are talking about. Table showers are not illegal in Florida.

Your rant is moronic.

4Q

 

[cupofjoe1962]

A couple years ago Jerry Jones made the NFL HOF & it was only a matter of time before Bob Kraft made it into the HOF.

After the arrest, I have my doubts that Kraft will make it into the HOF during his lifetime?

I personally do not see him making it into the HOF during his lifetime.

What do you think?

 

[VectorPrime]

Unless he dies within the next couple years yes he will.