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[borisman]

Bird was clutch every time. He may have missed one shot here and there. James doesn't even take the last shot cause he scared to miss. He passes waaayyyy more than what a top 5 all-time player would at the end of a game. He got no sack.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bird was clutch every time. He may have missed one shot here and there. James doesn't even take the last shot cause he scared to miss. He passes waaayyyy more than what a top 5 all-time player would at the end of a game. He got no sack.

LeBron passes in order to get his teammates involved in the game.

Larry passed because he either A) didn't like his shot, B) liked the other matchup better or C) just wanted to f_ck with the defense and set up the next play.

 

[realtime]

Bird is a better outside shooter

Bird is a better mid-range shooter

Bird is a better post-up player

Bird is a better rebounder

Bird is a better passer

LJ is a better defensive player

LJ is better in transition

Bird is a better playoff competitor

Bird is more clutch

You forgot an important category: Durability/Longevity. LeBron has now been a great player for longer than Bird played at all.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You forgot an important category: Durability/Longevity. LeBron has now been a great player for longer than Bird played at all.

Durability does not mean a player is great.

Longevity does not mean a player is great

Does a longer career make him a better player? No.

You can argue longevity means the player had a better career.

In these types of who is better discussions, aside from stats, skills, etc. I always ask, in a do-or-die game, who do you want on your team?

LeBron James or Larry Bird?

 

[realtime]

Durability does not mean a player is great.

Longevity does not mean a player is great

Does a longer career make him a better player? No.

You can argue longevity means the player had a better career.

In these types of who is better discussions, aside from stats, skills, etc. I always ask, in a do-or-die game, who do you want on your team?

LeBron James or Larry Bird?

Being a good mid-range jump shooter (for example) doesn't make a player great either. Or a better player. Durability/longevity is just one of a number of categories where LeBron is objectively better than Larry.

Tough to answer your question in the abstract. Both players are all-time greats who would improve any team's winning chances astronomically. If you are asking who would I rather see take a last second shot to win the game, then it's Bird, no question. If we're playing a team who has scorers who actually need to be defended, then it's LeBron, no question.

 

[rochrist]

It's OK. I came around. Bob Ryan came around and even Bill Simmons came around. It's just taking you a little longer than the rest of us.

It's pretty much inarguable that Bird was a better shooter, rebounder and passer. Defense I'll give to Lebron.

 

[rochrist]

The 80s Pistons teams would have carved up Lebron.

So would the 86 Cs or the 87 Lakers.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Being a good mid-range jump shooter (for example) doesn't make a player great either. Or a better player. Durability/longevity is just one of a number of categories where LeBron is objectively better than Larry.

Tough to answer your question in the abstract. Both players are all-time greats who would improve any team's winning chances astronomically. If you are asking who would I rather see take a last second shot to win the game, then it's Bird, no question. If we're playing a team who has scorers who actually need to be defended, then it's LeBron, no question.

This is where Larry's defensive contributions need to be accounted for. There is no doubt in his physical prime, LeBron was an elite on-the-ball defender, vastly superior to LB and is still very good. With that said, over his career Larry averages more steals per game than LeBron and the same number of blocks. We all know he basically played zone out there and had incredibly quick hands and great anticipation.

With that said, if you have 4 elite defenders and Bird, are you really a better team with LeBron and without Larry?

 

[jimnance]

Durability does not mean a player is great.

Longevity does not mean a player is great

Does a longer career make him a better player? No.

You can argue longevity means the player had a better career.

In these types of who is better discussions, aside from stats, skills, etc. I always ask, in a do-or-die game, who do you want on your team?

LeBron James or Larry Bird?

That is a really tough question. I assume you mean Bird at hs very best and LeBron at his very best. Tough call. Larry is my personal favorite player of all time but I try to be objective in these arguments. E.g.,I watched most of Russell's phenomenal career, but I give MJ the nod as the GOAT.
I love both their games. Both have been big-time in big-time games. But Larry was a little more big-time in big games imo. LeBron might be the better player when all is said and done, but not by much. They're very close.
But for one must-have game, I'll take Larry Joe Bird over anybody except MJ.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So would the 86 Cs or the 87 Lakers.

In terms of beating any LeBron team- yes.

I call out the Pistons as Dumars would pressure him on the ball. Rodman would cover him inside the arch, Sally would own him inside the paint and Laimbeer/Mahorn to hammer him every time he drove to the hoop. It took Jordan a good 4 years to figure out how to beat that D.

The key difference with Jordan is his offensive game was much more diversified. LJ is either a 3 or drive to the hoop and DET did not allow drives to the hoop. Period

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is a really tough question. I assume you mean Bird at hs very best and LeBron at his very best. Tough call. Larry is my personal favorite player of all time but I try to be objective in these arguments. E.g.,I watched most of Russell's phenomenal career, but I give MJ the nod as the GOAT.
I love both their games. Both have been big-time in big-time games. But Larry was a little more big-time in big games imo. LeBron might be the better player when all is said and done, but not by much. They're very close.
But for one must-have game, I'll take Larry Joe Bird over anybody except MJ.

These are great discussions.

It took me a loooooong time to accept that Jordan > Larry. Better scorer. Better on D. More titles. Just a better player. Every now and then I try to re-argue it but I can't. Different positions. Expansion teams. Watered-down league. Doesn't matter. Watching Bird, Magic and Jordan in the same era live was a goddamn privilege. We'll never see that again. Ever.

I've trashed LeBron his entire career but last year's Finals made me reconsider his status on the GOAT list and he is undoubtedly in the top 10. Maybe top 7. He'd do just fine in the 80s just as I think Larry would still be a 28/10/7 guy in 2017.

Greatness adapts.

 

[deroc5050]

Bird is a better outside shooter

Bird is a better mid-range shooter

Bird is a better post-up player

Bird is a better rebounder

Bird is a better passer

LJ is a better defensive player

LJ is better in transition

Bird is a better playoff competitor

Bird is more clutch

I honestly can't say for sure about anything you just typed. Lebron already has 3 championships and is getting better as he gets older. Bird was toast by the time he was 34 years old.

Also athletes in general are just bigger stronger and faster today over all.

The NBA is less physical now, you don't see people getting closed lined on a fast break or anything, and flagrant fouls are called by the letter of the law nowadays. But that doesn't change much. Lebron in 1986 would dominate just like he is today.

I think outside of Boston Lebron has surpassed Bird already.

After coming back from 3-1 against Golden State last year put the seal on that.

Did they play defense in the 80's?

 

[deroc5050]

Actually it's 7 ( 8 soon) ......

Oh my bad, I heard someone say he has been to the finals 10 times, I thought that seemed high.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I honestly can't say for sure about anything you just typed. Lebron already has 3 championships and is getting better as he gets older. Bird was toast by the time he was 34 years old.

Also athletes in general are just bigger stronger and faster today over all.

The NBA is less physical now, you don't see people getting closed lined on a fast break or anything, and flagrant fouls are called by the letter of the law nowadays. But that doesn't change much. Lebron in 1986 would dominate just like he is today.

I think outside of Boston Lebron has surpassed Bird already.

After coming back from 3-1 against Golden State last year put the seal on that.

Did they play defense in the 80's?

People outside of Boston did not watch Larry on a daily basis. This is the problem when arguing a player is better who's prime was 30 years ago.

Back then the teams that won titles play D. The teams like the Nuggets and Jazz that scored 125 a game did nothing.

 

[rochrist]

I honestly can't say for sure about anything you just typed. Lebron already has 3 championships and is getting better as he gets older. Bird was toast by the time he was 34 years old.

Also athletes in general are just bigger stronger and faster today over all.

The NBA is less physical now, you don't see people getting closed lined on a fast break or anything, and flagrant fouls are called by the letter of the law nowadays. But that doesn't change much. Lebron in 1986 would dominate just like he is today.

I think outside of Boston Lebron has surpassed Bird already.

After coming back from 3-1 against Golden State last year put the seal on that.

Did they play defense in the 80's?

That last line gives you away. You're talking without having actually watched Bird or any of the other players of the 80s. The question /should/ be do they play any defense today. The answer is very little.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

These are great discussions.

It took me a loooooong time to accept that Jordan > Larry. Better scorer. Better on D. More titles. Just a better player. Every now and then I try to re-argue it but I can't. Different positions. Expansion teams. Watered-down league. Doesn't matter. Watching Bird, Magic and Jordan in the same era live was a goddamn privilege. We'll never see that again. Ever.

I've trashed LeBron his entire career but last year's Finals made me reconsider his status on the GOAT list and he is undoubtedly in the top 10. Maybe top 7. He'd do just fine in the 80s just as I think Larry would still be a 28/10/7 guy in 2017.

Greatness adapts.

Via the Bill Simmons Podcast - Here's the list of guys who have won 2 NBA Finals MVP:

Willis Reed (70, 73)
Magic (80, 82, 87)
Kareem (71, 85)
Bird (84, 86)
Jordan (91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98)
Hakeem (94, 95)
Duncan (99, 03, 05)
Shaq (00, 01, 02)
Kobe (09, 10)
LeBron (12, 13, 16)

Pretty good (not perfect!) list for the all-time greats, especially if you add in the guy the award is named after . 2 of the more glaring absences from the list are Wilt and Moses, who each won 1 award.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Via the Bill Simmons Podcast - Here's the list of guys who have won 2 NBA Finals MVP:

Willis Reed (70, 73)
Magic (80, 82, 87)
Kareem (71, 85)
Bird (84, 86)
Jordan (91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98)
Hakeem (94, 95)
Duncan (99, 03, 05)
Shaq (00, 01, 02)
Kobe (09, 10)
LeBron (12, 13, 16)

Pretty good (not perfect!) list for the all-time greats, especially if you add in the guy the award is named after . 2 of the more glaring absences from the list are Wilt and Moses, who each won 1 award.

Simmons knows his hoops.

Reed was a vastly underrated player

Larry should have won it in '81

G1 Larry: 18/21/9, Max 10/9/5 W
G2 Larry 19/21/3 5 ST, Max 6/4/2 L
G3 Larry 8/13/10 5 ST, Max 19/10/0 W
G4 Larry 10/12/7/2 ST, Max 24/14/1 L
G5 Larry 12/12/8, Max 28/15/3 W
G6 Larry 27/13/5, Max 19/6/0 W

 

[rochrist]

I honestly can't say for sure about anything you just typed. Lebron already has 3 championships and is getting better as he gets older. Bird was toast by the time he was 34 years old.

Also athletes in general are just bigger stronger and faster today over all.

The NBA is less physical now, you don't see people getting closed lined on a fast break or anything, and flagrant fouls are called by the letter of the law nowadays. But that doesn't change much. Lebron in 1986 would dominate just like he is today.

I think outside of Boston Lebron has surpassed Bird already.

After coming back from 3-1 against Golden State last year put the seal on that.

Did they play defense in the 80's?

Of course, the way your doing it, Bill Russell is clearly alone.

As player:

• 11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963, 1965)
• 12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
• NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
• 3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
• 8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)
• NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
• 4× NBA rebounding champion (1958, 1959, 1964, 1965)
• NBA 50th Anniversary Team
• NBA 35th Anniversary Team
• NBA 25th Anniversary Team
• No. 6 retired by the Boston Celtics
• 2× NCAA champion (1955, 1956)
• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1955)
• UPI College Player of the Year (1956)
• 2× Helms Player of the Year (1955, 1956)
• 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1955, 1956)
• WCC Player of the Year (1956)
• No. 6 retired by University of San Francisco

As coach:

• 2× NBA champion (1968, 1969)

They had to name the NBA Finals MVP after him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Of course, the way your doing it, Bill Russell is clearly alone.

As player:

• 11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963, 1965)
• 12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
• NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
• 3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
• 8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)
• NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
• 4× NBA rebounding champion (1958, 1959, 1964, 1965)
• NBA 50th Anniversary Team
• NBA 35th Anniversary Team
• NBA 25th Anniversary Team
• No. 6 retired by the Boston Celtics
• 2× NCAA champion (1955, 1956)
• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1955)
• UPI College Player of the Year (1956)
• 2× Helms Player of the Year (1955, 1956)
• 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1955, 1956)
• WCC Player of the Year (1956)
• No. 6 retired by University of San Francisco

As coach:

• 2× NBA champion (1968, 1969)

They had to name the NBA Finals MVP after him.

Useless Fact: Russ was not allowed to qualify for the 1956 US Olympic Track & Field team (broad jump, high jump and hurdles ) because the USOC didn't want to risk injury for the USA Hoop team. Gold for the broad jump at Sydney was 24.6ft and Russ was easily hitting 24ft and was #3 in country for high jump and hurdles at USF.

Thats was lost with 60 years gone by. Russ was a great, great, great athlete. Perhaps way ahead of his time.

Thats a big reason why he was so great defensively. Legend is he could cover two people at the same time. He could cover a lot of ground quickly and jump through the roof. Based on his track and field numbers the facts add credence the legend a bit.

 

[deroc5050]

That last line gives you away. You're talking without having actually watched Bird or any of the other players of the 80s. The question /should/ be do they play any defense today. The answer is very little.

I don't remember the 80's I was to young, I vaguely remember the Bruins in 1988 but most of my Bird memories came in the 90's.

The reason I asked about the defense is because I remember older Basketball guys talking about the 80's (the best era for the NBA) and they mentioned that they did not really play defense in the 80's. Scores would frequently be in the 130's to 140's.

As far as Russell I am not going to pretend to know anything about him but there were 8 teams back then.. looking at the highlights with Cousy Dribbling the ball around makes me laugh. If you took any NBA team from today and played any of those 8 teams it would be a laugher.

I am not taking anything away from Russell but his competition for the most part was laughable, compared to todays standards. He was ahead of his time.