OT NBA Draft Lottery

[realtime]

Absolutely untradable

I would trade him for a young superstar that is a tier or two up from Butler, George, etc. Like Giannis or AD, for example. That's pretty much it.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

29 year old whose game relies on quickness...not a no brainer. If someone offers a big haul I may be inclined to take it and start Fultz day one. I'd like to rip up IT's last year if possible and offer him 3 years at max and let him go at 32.

Were they aware they could protect picks lol? The Wallace trade wasn't nearly as devastating but, made a lot less sense. They weren't headed to the playoffs and could have signed him outright lol. Not to mention he sucked anyways. Least when the Lakers gave up a bunch of picks they did it to add Nash and Dwight to Kobe (who was still balling hard at the time).

I'm sure they were aware, but that the C's wouldn't agree to it.

 

[BobDigital]

Just wanna check as i am not really up to date on him but from what I understand though Fultz should be very good he isn't going to be one of those players that can be the #1 on a multiple championship team right? Isn't he just short of that ability?

I mean guys like Lebron, Duncan, Durant, ect...

The Celtics to go where we all want them to go probably need to hit again next year in the lotto and still make a trade, Probably trade IT for good value (if they can) that will get them a potentially very good young player.

 

[realtime]

Just wanna check as i am not really up to date on him but from what I understand though Fultz should be very good he isn't going to be one of those players that can be the #1 on a multiple championship team right? Isn't he just short of that ability?

I mean guys like Lebron, Duncan, Durant, ect...

Durant is not that guy either. James Harden is a good comparison. Not a LeBron, Duncan, Magic or Bird, whose mere presence ensures multiple titles. But his ceiling is perennial all-star and stat-stuffing 25+ ppg scorer who is also a good passer and competent defender.

 

[Bartmac36]

No . . . Fultz is ridiculously good. He's got a lot of James Harden/Healthy Brandon Roy to his game already and he is still improving. Fultz is a no-brainer of a pick for the C's. I will be sick if they trade him for Jimmy Butler or 1 year of Paul George.

Karl-Anthony Towns and Porzingis play for terrible teams too. The T'Wolves and Knicks are loaded with lousy NBA players, but that doesn't change the evaluation of Towns and Porzingis. Similarly, Washington was loaded with terrible D-1 college players. Why is that a red flag against Fultz?

Im not doubting Fultz as a surpreme basketball talent, i'm just always hesitant when theres a lack of winning pedigree with a player. It's the same reason I wanted nothing to do with Kevin Love during all the years people were hoping we would trade for him.

There have been lots of talented players in college and in the NBA that have all the tools to be great, but for some reason dont produce results. There is elite alpha talent (Lebron, Kawhi, Westbrook, IT) and elite beta talent (Harden, Irving, AD, Cousins). My biggest fear with Fultz is he's the latter, whereas I think Ball could possible be an alpha but his off court distractions are potentially too much

Theres no way of knowing for sure until these guys get 3-5 years in to their NBA careers and thats what makes it a fascinating decision coming up.

 

[realtime]

Im not doubting Fultz as a surpreme basketball talent, i'm just always hesitant when theres a lack of winning pedigree with a player. It's the same reason I wanted nothing to do with Kevin Love during all the years people were hoping we would trade for him.

There have been lots of talented players in college and in the NBA that have all the tools to be great, but for some reason dont produce results. There is elite alpha talent (Lebron, Kawhi, Westbrook, IT) and elite beta talent (Harden, Irving, AD, Cousins). My biggest fear with Fultz is he's the latter, whereas I think Ball could possible be an alpha but his off court distractions are potentially too much

Theres no way of knowing for sure until these guys get 3-5 years in to their NBA careers and thats what makes it a fascinating decision coming up.

Not sure I understand the alpha/beta distinction (as you list IT as an "alpha" even though he is an objectively weaker player than at least two of your "betas") or why that would be a cause for concern as long as the player you are getting is elite.

Fultz is not LeBron but few players in history are. It is amazing how quickly elite players without winning pedigrees can become winning players when you put them on a team with other elite players. Not to mention that Markelle led his team to a league championship in the tough Maryland private school league and was MVP of the FIBA U-18 championship team. So why do those not count toward a "winning pedigree" but Washington's one terrible season does? But regardless of how many losses his lousy college team had, Fultz has a chance to be a truly elite NBA player and a critical (but by no means the only) piece of a championship team.

By all accounts, Ball is a good citizen and committed player with no off-court issues. His dad is a loudmouth, but his dad will not be playing for whichever team drafts him. So if you really think Ball is better on the court than Fultz, you draft him. But Fultz's game looks tailor made for a seamless transition to the NBA -- he checks every box for an elite prospect, especially on the offensive end. Ball has an ugly shot and does most of his damage in transition, but unless you are the Celtics in Games 3 and 4 against the Wizards, most NBA teams are really good at limiting the opponent's transition game, so there is a risk that Ball's greatest offensive skill set will be marginalized in the NBA. That is why there is no doubt in my mind that Fultz is the right pick.

Lastly, if the prospect is good enough, you often find out right away that they will be a star in the NBA. KAT and Anthony Davis didn't need 3-5 years for people to realize that they are elite players and better than everyone else in their draft class. Fultz has a very realistic (although certainly not guaranteed) chance to join that group.

 

[primetime]

Were they aware they could protect picks lol? The Wallace trade wasn't nearly as devastating but, made a lot less sense. They weren't headed to the playoffs and could have signed him outright lol. Not to mention he sucked anyways. Least when the Lakers gave up a bunch of picks they did it to add Nash and Dwight to Kobe (who was still balling hard at the time).

Yeah, none of this is true. The Gerald Wallace trade? The Nets did protect that pick (top-3, I think) and ended up with the #6, which went to the Blazers and became Damian Lillard. It was a dumb trade in retrospect because Crash was a guy whose game relied on athleticism and he had just hit 30 and didn't exactly take care of himself, but they also needed to ensure Deron Williams re-signed after giving up picks for him and he demanded Crash. They wouldn't have been able to sign him outright because the Blazers controlled his Bird Rights. They also went to the playoffs the next few years and made it to Game 7 in the second round before exiting in the Pierce/Garnett year.

The series of acquisitions from Deron Williams to Crash to Joe Johnson to Pierce and Garnett all made sense at the time, the problem was Williams (who was arguably the best point guard in the league for a year or two in 2008-2010) was always injured or sucking, Crash's athleticism disappeared, and Pierce and Garnett weren't the same guys they had been a couple years before. And they kept trying to get Howard, but he'd do stupid **** like sign a contract extension when he wanted to be traded because the Magic had Mickey Mouse visit him. Basically, the Nets put together a 2008-2010 championship team who only had one above average year left in them before they blew it all up.

To be fair, though, Garnett turned into Thaddeus Young who turned into Caris LeVert, who looked pretty damn good last year, so they at least have something to show for the whole mess.

Poor Brook Lopez. He's one of my favorite basketball players of all-time. He deserves so much better.

 

[Froob]

Yeah, none of this is true. The Gerald Wallace trade? The Nets did protect that pick (top-3, I think) and ended up with the #6, which went to the Blazers and became Damian Lillard. It was a dumb trade in retrospect because Crash was a guy whose game relied on athleticism and he had just hit 30 and didn't exactly take care of himself, but they also needed to ensure Deron Williams re-signed after giving up picks for him and he demanded Crash. They wouldn't have been able to sign him outright because the Blazers controlled his Bird Rights. They also went to the playoffs the next few years and made it to Game 7 in the second round before exiting in the Pierce/Garnett year.

The series of acquisitions from Deron Williams to Crash to Joe Johnson to Pierce and Garnett all made sense at the time, the problem was Williams (who was arguably the best point guard in the league for a year or two in 2008-2010) was always injured or sucking, Crash's athleticism disappeared, and Pierce and Garnett weren't the same guys they had been a couple years before. And they kept trying to get Howard, but he'd do stupid **** like sign a contract extension when he wanted to be traded because the Magic had Mickey Mouse visit him. Basically, the Nets put together a 2008-2010 championship team who only had one above average year left in them before they blew it all up.

To be fair, though, Garnett turned into Thaddeus Young who turned into Caris LeVert, who looked pretty damn good last year, so they at least have something to show for the whole mess.

Poor Brook Lopez. He's one of my favorite basketball players of all-time. He deserves so much better.

The Nets didn't have cap space though? I had that that they did. And Deron still had another year left on his deal. It was just way too much to give up to get Pierce and KG, those picks certainly should have been protected.

 

[rookBoston]

If the Celts had landed the #2 pick, I would have been pulling for Josh Jackson over Ball.

Luckily they got the #1, so I don't have to sweat it out. Danny will do the right thing with that pick.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Durant is not that guy either. James Harden is a good comparison. Not a LeBron, Duncan, Magic or Bird, whose mere presence ensures multiple titles. But his ceiling is perennial all-star and stat-stuffing 25+ ppg scorer who is also a good passer and competent defender.

Forgive me for being an old fogey but Lebron is not comparable to Bird or Magic.

Lebron (like Shaq) got by mostly on being physically freakish. I suppose a "presence" like that can assure titles but it's sort of boring to watch.

Shaq's fundamentals were iffy but he was too big and strong to box out-- he was like 7'1 a bit under 300lbs out of college but still looked kind of skinny.

Then there's Lebron at 6'8 and 250 lbs with crazy agility but could never hit the big shot to close out a game. He got by mostly by being physically gifted and crying like a teenage girl to the refs.

Bird and Magic were almost magical and were a true pleasure to watch in the 80's.

The game got all weird in the 90's when coke use was rampant among the players and David Stern started rigging the sh*t out of games and lotteries.

I'm hoping Fultz/Celtics vs. Ball/Lakers can bring back the golden years of NBA in the 80's.

 

[Kdo5]

I would trade him for a young superstar that is a tier or two up from Butler, George, etc. Like Giannis or AD, for example. That's pretty much it.

Danny would be smoking crack to trade the pick to bring in Butler or George. They are very good players but they are in their late 20s. And I'm sorry but IT/Horford/Butler/possibly Hayward still isn't getting you past GSW and probably not even the Cavs.

Not trading the pick for a few years of being a contender who can maybe make the Cavs sweat in the ECF.

Draft Fultz, trade AB (or Jae?) at some point, bring in a notable FA. We aren't winning an NBA title this year, nor will we next year. Build for the future and be a solid contender in the present. Might not raise a banner with IT, sadly but it is what it is.

Of course if we managed to get a young stud like AD that changes things and yes we could instantly challenge LeBron.

But otherwise I'm happy with improving the roster modestly, being a thorn in the Cavs side for a few years and letting the young guys take this team to another level and be the next team to beat in the East once LeBron starts slipping.

 

[primetime]

elite alpha talent (Lebron, Kawhi, Westbrook, IT) and elite beta talent (Harden, Irving, AD, Cousins)

I mean, I like Isaiah Thomas as much as anyone, but he's certainly not on the level of James, Leonard, or Westbrook. He's in a muddled tier two of point guards after Curry, Westbrook, and Harden with Wall, Irving, Paul, and Lowry.

 

[primetime]

Forgive me for being an old fogey but Lebron is not comparable to Bird or Magic.

You're an old fogey and overthinking it. He's better. He's going to retire as the greatest basketball player to ever play, and even if he retired tomorrow the only guy I'd put above him would be Jordan.

 

[primetime]

The Nets didn't have cap space though? I had that that they did. And Deron still had another year left on his deal. It was just way too much to give up to get Pierce and KG, those picks certainly should have been protected.

Oh, I thought you were referring to the trade that brought Wallace to the Nets, rather than Wallace going to the Celtics with Humphries, some cap dumps, and the picks for KG, Pierce, and Terry. Yeah, it was way too much to give up and everyone knew it at the time. Then again, there was a feeling that the Nets would stick around as a 4-6 seed in the East for longer than they did so maybe the draft picks would be in the 20s rather than high lottery, and the pick swap may not have made a difference. I mean, that was the optimist of optimist's view. The rest of us thought it was utterly nuts.

 

[Bartmac36]

Not sure I understand the alpha/beta distinction (as you list IT as an "alpha" even though he is an objectively weaker player than at least two of your "betas") or why that would be a cause for concern as long as the player you are getting is elite.

Fultz is not LeBron but few players in history are. It is amazing how quickly elite players without winning pedigrees can become winning players when you put them on a team with other elite players. Not to mention that Markelle led his team to a league championship in the tough Maryland private school league and was MVP of the FIBA U-18 championship team. So why do those not count toward a "winning pedigree" but Washington's one terrible season does? But regardless of how many losses his lousy college team had, Fultz has a chance to be a truly elite NBA player and a critical (but by no means the only) piece of a championship team.

By all accounts, Ball is a good citizen and committed player with no off-court issues. His dad is a loudmouth, but his dad will not be playing for whichever team drafts him. So if you really think Ball is better on the court than Fultz, you draft him. But Fultz's game looks tailor made for a seamless transition to the NBA -- he checks every box for an elite prospect, especially on the offensive end. Ball has an ugly shot and does most of his damage in transition, but unless you are the Celtics in Games 3 and 4 against the Wizards, most NBA teams are really good at limiting the opponent's transition game, so there is a risk that Ball's greatest offensive skill set will be marginalized in the NBA. That is why there is no doubt in my mind that Fultz is the right pick.

Lastly, if the prospect is good enough, you often find out right away that they will be a star in the NBA. KAT and Anthony Davis didn't need 3-5 years for people to realize that they are elite players and better than everyone else in their draft class. Fultz has a very realistic (although certainly not guaranteed) chance to join that group.

The alpha vs beta thing is all about intangibles, its that thing inside you that drives you to lead and succeed despite long odds (IT) or melt under pressure like butter in the sun (Harden, John Wall on monday night). It has nothing to do with literal physical strengths and weaknesses or natural god given talents.

You seem to know a lot more about Fultz than me as I admittedly have very little interest in college basketball, and I usually go by gut when researching prospects come draft time, as I do with football as well. For the sake of the Celtics frachise I hope you are right that Fultz is a no brainer should they pick him. Like I said I dont doubt his natural basketball talent one bit, I just hope that a guy that didnt win in college can then become a consumant winner in the pros after the current talent that will be supporting him early (IT, Horford, possible FA signing) is gone and the franchise is left in his hands.

Again the concern isnt that we wont know if Fultz is good in 3-5 years because I think it'll be clear that he is, the concern is that in 3-5 years hes a talented all-star player that hasnt shown the ability to lead a winning franchise even if the supporting cast isnt great, kinda the way AD has been his whole career.

You're also right that it's just great to have an all-star talent on your team regardless, the dilemma in this situation is we are so close to contending right now and using this pick for the future and not as an asset to get this current group over the hump could easily prove to be a bad decision. It could also easily prove to be a fantastic decision in the long run, but right now its a 50/50 toss up IMO

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Who does fultz compare to?

 

[Kdo5]

The alpha vs beta thing is all about intangibles, its that thing inside you that drives you to lead and succeed despite long odds (IT) or melt under pressure like butter in the sun (Harden, John Wall on monday night). It has nothing to do with literal physical strengths and weaknesses or natural god given talents.

You seem to know a lot more about Fultz than me as I admittedly have very little interest in college basketball, and I usually go by gut when researching prospects come draft time, as I do with football as well. For the sake of the Celtics frachise I hope you are right that Fultz is a no brainer should they pick him. Like I said I dont doubt his natural basketball talent one bit, I just hope that a guy that didnt win in college can then become a consumant winner in the pros after the current talent that will be supporting him early (IT, Horford, possible FA signing) is gone and the franchise is left in his hands.

Again the concern isnt that we wont know if Fultz is good in 3-5 years because I think it'll be clear that he is, the concern is that in 3-5 years hes a talented all-star player that hasnt shown the ability to lead a winning franchise even if the supporting cast isnt great, kinda the way AD has been his whole career.

Fultz's team and supporting cast sucked in his one year of college. No fault of his. I mean he isn't necessarily going to single handedly win a championship but put the right pieces around him and he'll be a great contributor for a championship drive(s).

Fultz is an easy pick in my mind. I will be extremely disappointed if we walk away from the draft without him or a super-stud like AD.

 

[Bartmac36]

I mean, I like Isaiah Thomas as much as anyone, but he's certainly not on the level of James, Leonard, or Westbrook. He's in a muddled tier two of point guards after Curry, Westbrook, and Harden with Wall, Irving, Paul, and Lowry.

Its not about the natural talents as ive tried to explain in other posts, its about the thing in your heart, that dog in your mind that drives you to succeed past even the longest odds. IT has that dog in him, Harden and guys like lowry dont. Thats what i meant, i guess it wasnt as clear as it seemed in my head

The celtics do not have an overly talented roster, hes at an incredible disadvantage size wise, and despite everything IT has dealt with in this last month he's still carried this team to a top seed and the ECF. Thats as alpha as it gets IMO

Meanwhile you have guys lke John Wall that are more gifted and talented physically going 0-11 down the stretch of a do or die game or James Harden just completely unravelling altogether at home against a super short handed team and getting blown out, that aint alpha

 

[primetime]

Its not about the natural talents as ive tried to explain in other posts, its about the thing in your heart, that dog in your mind that drives you to succeed past even the longest odds. IT has that dog in him, Harden and guys like lowry dont. Thats what i meant, i guess it wasnt as clear as it seemed in my head

The celtics do not have an overly talented roster, hes at an incredible disadvantage size wise, and despite everything IT has dealt with in this last month he's still carried this team to a top seed and the ECF. Thats as alpha as it gets IMO

People were accusing LeBron of this years ago. Stars matter but it's a team game, and the West remains magnitudes better than the East.

 

[reflexblue]

Another guard? It seems with the exception of last year Ainge has picked guards almost exclusively. This team needs a power forward from what ive seen. Trade the overall number one for a young big man like butler.