Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[QuantumMechanic]

I would think that ANY team could file a grievance, even if they were not involved in the trade, since they could be considered "harmed" by an opponent pulling off an illegal transaction.

A player can’t be tendered as a tool for trading him, per the CBA.

Florio discussed this last week, in that both teams need to tread lightly and follow procedures closely, or else the NFL will have a problem with it:

Saints, Patriots will tread lightly on Malcolm Butler deal

And in that very article Florio says that some illegal "winking and nodding" will be happening anyways.

Of course, there will be a point at which the Patriots and Saints will need to do some winking and nodding, so that the planets can properly align once Butler has signed the tender. But if the Saints are the ones who initiate the trade talks, Belichick will be more comfortable (or at least less uncomfortable) about working out a tentative trade before Butler signs the tender offer.

 

[farn]

Just upset to see another team pry him - as Super Bowp hero - away from us on the cheap

I hear you. And - of course - the prospect of losing Butler is an unexpected event considering his production. But, in the end, let's say #32 returns. Are we certain that pick doesn't bring in a VG young player (or playerS if BB trades down) ?

We simply do not know. Maybe BB thinks differently of Butler than we do. Maybe he sees this contract dispute being a year-long distraction.

Time will tell. But, with or without Butler, this team is primed for noise next season.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well if the difference between the #11 and #32 is a second round pick - how about the Saints give us #32 + #42 and call it a day? We can even kick in our late 5th or 6th round pick back to the Saints. Is that a fair deal for RFA Butler?

 

[TomPatriot]

I would think that ANY team could file a grievance, even if they were not involved in the trade, since they could be considered "harmed" by an opponent pulling off an illegal transaction.

A player can’t be tendered as a tool for trading him, per the CBA.

Florio discussed this last week, in that both teams need to tread lightly and follow procedures closely, or else the NFL will have a problem with it:

Saints, Patriots will tread lightly on Malcolm Butler deal

League or Union are probably the only ones who can grieve. Teams probably have no separate rights under the CBA, so the CBA would have to state specifically that teams can grieve. It probably doesn't. Team can always complaint to he NFL and then it can file a grievance if it wants to do so.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, we don't know that at all. For starters, we don't know if the league can initiate action itself on this or if it can only act persuant to a grievance filed by the involved player or an involved team. Since in this proposed transaction all three parties are (presumably) on board, there'd be no one to grieve.

The parties involved don't get to decide if you broke the rule that says you cannot discuss trading a player who isn't under contract.
You can be damn sure if this actual happened goodell would spend 5 million to investigate in order to suspend BB for a year and take away the entire patriot 2018 draft.

If you seriously think at this point bb will violate a rule under the idea that no one will complain I have some primo swamp land to sell you.

 

[Ring 6]

League or Union are probably the only ones who can grieve. Teams probably have no separate rights under the CBA, so the CBA would have to state specifically that teams can grieve. It probably doesn't. Team can always complaint to he NFL and then it can file a grievance if it wants to do so.

It's a league rule. The league doesn't need a grievance filed.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

It's a league rule. The league doesn't need a grievance filed.

Since you've previously been going around demanding CBA cites and the like, how about for once you saddle up and give us some official cites for all these things you claim to know so well. Especially given how mistaken you were on other things you were equally sure about how they worked.

 

[XLIX]

You do realize that the Pats and Saints could be punished through such speculation by the league office, right?

What I "realize" is that if they were conspiring to lower the value of Butler's next deal, he would have one helluva grievance and could file to have the whole thing voided.

But that isn't happening here.

 

[Ring 6]

Since you've previously been going around demanding CBA cites and the like, how about for once you saddle up and give us some official cites for all these things you claim to know so well. Especially given how mistaken you were on other things you were equally sure about how they worked.

I have not demanding cba citings.

I have said all along I trust Lombardi and belichick to be right on this and have no interest in wasting my time reading the cba to confirm it.

Are you saying they are wrong?

 

[Ring 6]

Since you've previously been going around demanding CBA cites and the like, how about for once you saddle up and give us some official cites for all these things you claim to know so well. Especially given how mistaken you were on other things you were equally sure about how they worked.

Please refresh me in what I was "equal sure about". Are you referring to the part that I said "I could be wrong"

 

[XLIX]

I would think that ANY team could file a grievance, even if they were not involved in the trade, since they could be considered "harmed" by an opponent pulling off an illegal transaction.

A player can’t be tendered as a tool for trading him, per the CBA.

Florio discussed this last week, in that both teams need to tread lightly and follow procedures closely, or else the NFL will have a problem with it:

Saints, Patriots will tread lightly on Malcolm Butler deal

This is where the good faith part comes in. The CBA says they have to "have a good faith intention to employ the player receiving the Tender at the Tender compensation level during the upcoming season." That doesn't mean they can't trade him. It means they can't tender him to keep him in reserve with the idea that if they can't trade him, they'll retract the tender.

In this particular case, if all deals with the Saints (or any other team) fall through, the Patriots will be keeping Butler for $3.9M. If they happen to strike a deal with NO, that doesn't change the fact that the tender was proffered in good faith.

Also, that Florio article says "If the Saints and Patriots reach an understanding, Butler would sign the tender, and the Patriots would trade him ... there will be a point at which the Patriots and Saints will need to do some winking and nodding" which makes it clear that negotiations for Butler take place before the tender is signed.

 

[XLIX]

Yeah, the only scenario that really makes sense is a lot of "informal" promises from both sides to the agent, and then a big leap of faith that everyone follows through when the player signs the tender.

While there is no official "sign-and-trade" procedure in the NFL, I cannot imagine a scenario where a team told a player "sign the tender and we will trade you to the Saints" and then when the player signed it they "changed their mind" and kept him at the tender value.

If such a thing happened, the NFLPA would file a grievance and win easily.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

And in that very article Florio says that some illegal "winking and nodding" will be happening anyways.

Ted Wells (aka Jeff Pash's little b1tch) would consider Florio's speculation to be evidence.

 

[XLIX]

If you seriously think at this point bb will violate a rule under the idea that no one will complain I have some primo swamp land to sell you.

And if you seriously think that New Orleans and New England have not said a single word to each other about Malcolm Butler, including what it would take for NO to get him, then I have a bridge I can sell you which spans all that swampland you own.

 

[patfanken]

The parties involved don't get to decide if you broke the rule that says you cannot discuss trading a player who isn't under contract.
You can be damn sure if this actual happened goodell would spend 5 million to investigate in order to suspend BB for a year and take away the entire patriot 2018 draft.

If you seriously think at this point bb will violate a rule under the idea that no one will complain I have some primo swamp land to sell you.

Here's what I don't understand. I think the "rule" is in place to protect the player from 2 teams trying to get around the RFA policies to the detriment of the player who is currently a not with any team until he signs that tender.

So based on that, the league really can't DO anything to anyone UNTIL the player (Butler) files a grievance. So as long as Butler is a willing participant in this operation, neither team is likely to feel any pain from the league.

Its kinda like the Steeler/Giants mini-deflategate. Everyone knew balls were deflated, but the league was "powerless" to do anything because no one filed a complaint. So am I right in thinking that as long as Butler doesn't file a complaint no "rules" have been broken?

In a second question, am I right in thinking that there IS no tampering if the team with the contract is OK with it and doesn't file a complaint. Because clearly it would seem both teams would be cool with the Saints talking to Butler even after he signs the tender.

 

[Obidan]

Actually, we don't know that at all. For starters, we don't kn
ow if the league can initiate action itself on this or if it can only act persuant to a grievance filed by the involved player or an involved team. Since in this proposed transaction all three parties are (presumably) on board, there'd be no one to grieve.

If the league uses the "more likely than not" standard, they can do whatever they want. And with Belicheck and Payton involved, they more likely than not will use that standard.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If the league uses the "more likely than not" standard, they can do whatever they want. And with Belicheck and Payton involved, they more likely than not will use that standard.

Sean Payton tweets support for Tom Brady, knows what QB is going through

 

[IllegalContact]

Well if the difference between the #11 and #32 is a second round pick - how about the Saints give us #32 + #42 and call it a day? We can even kick in our late 5th or 6th round pick back to the Saints. Is that a fair deal for RFA Butler?

because I'd rather have zach cunningham than mcafferey and some inside guy who can't cover

 

[PatsFanInVa]

League or Union are probably the only ones who can grieve. Teams probably have no separate rights under the CBA, so the CBA would have to state specifically that teams can grieve. It probably doesn't. Team can always complaint to he NFL and then it can file a grievance if it wants to do so.

Didn't the Stones have a song, "Only Unions Grieve?"

 

[Ivan]

Well if the difference between the #11 and #32 is a second round pick - how about the Saints give us #32 + #42 and call it a day? We can even kick in our late 5th or 6th round pick back to the Saints. Is that a fair deal for RFA Butler?

According to the Draft Value Chart the #11 is worth a little more than two 32's. #11 is worth 1200 points and #32 is worth 590 points. However even though the Saints would technically get a better return I would take #32 and #42 for Butler because the value at that point in the draft in terms of players is really good. The Patriots could almost certainly add a really good Corner prospect and Edge Rusher/OLB if they get those two picks.