Would Weis be an upgrade over McDaniels as OC?

[Rob0729]

I was thinking the same thing about those stats - especially the TD record.

Seems like once, long ago, we'd much prefer having Super Bowls over records such as that.

Now the fact that such a record occured on McDaniels watch, makes him a better OC?

I don't get it. Let's just say, that's not how I look at football - and if others do, so be it.

But of course, wouldn't you have to be able to say that Weis's WRs were at least AS GOOD as Moss and Welker in order to give McDaniels an edge over Weis for that? And if they weren't - and Weis helped win Super Bowls even with "groceries" that weren't as good, doesn't he deserve more credit?

Honestly, the only reason I'm actually giving McDaniels enough credit to have me wavering on "Even" is because of what McDaniels did THIS year with a backup QB, 4th string RB, etc... NOT because of the stupid TD record - which DOES sound a lot like Colts Fan rationalization.

I have never argued records as why I think McDaniels may be as good or possibly better. Records and Super Bowls don't fall exclusively on one side of the ball.

People give Weis a ton of credit for the win over the Rams in the Super Bowl although the offense was mediocre. They only scored 13 points, they punted 8 of 11 possession with three being 3 and outs and three more only being 5 plays long. If the defense didn't hold up their end of the deal, this would have been the Pats' second largest Super Bowl loss ever. I think with McDaniels, this game may not have come down the final drive. The Pats may not have crushed the Rams, but they could have already had the 20 points they needed to win.

Against the Eagles, the Pats had six three and outs. This is the biggest gripe I had with Weis, his inability to convert third downs. I think McDaniels could have kept at least a few of these drives alive.

I think Super Bowl wins are what you are looking for, but you cannot judge an OC based on them unless you look deeper at what happened in the game. Weis is not nearly the stud playcaller in big games as people make him out to be. That is why I discount those Super Bowl wins a bit.

 

[Rob0729]

So you're saying Weis, with Brady, Moss, Welker et al wouldn't have been as good as McDaniels?

I've seen all the same things you have - but I have to say, I do think Weis would have done more with the same crew

I don't think he would have. Weis hates the shotgun. I think Brady has become more of a prolific passer since he has utilized the shotgun more. Brady just feels more confident in the shotgun and he says that he can see more of the defense in that formation. Weis has been admament that he would not use that formation except for specific plays.

Granted, now that he has seen how successful Brady can be in that formation on a more regular basis, he might change his tune. But if there was never any McDaniels as OC, Brady would never had been in that formation as much and I doubt he and Moss would have broken the record otherwise.

 

[maverick4]

Against the Eagles, the Pats had six three and outs. This is the biggest gripe I had with Weis, his inability to convert third downs. I think McDaniels could have kept at least a few of these drives alive.

Why are you so obsessed with 3-and-outs? It sounds like you would have been happier if we converted 2/3 of our 3rd downs and still lost the big game, which is what always happens under McDaniels. It's the same tired story from 01-04 every time Manning lost, lots of excuses and finger pointing but never at Manning.

Weiss won 3 Superbowls after each time his defense gave up late points. McDaniels, in similar situations when the defense faltered, failed to deliver, once calling a game ending pick, another calling 4 straight ******ed bomb plays.

You would be surprised to know that guys like Joe Montana and Brady trail Elway, Manning, Marino in TD's and yards, yet most people would say Montana and Brady are better than the other 3.

 

[Rob0729]

Why are you so obsessed with 3-and-outs? It sounds like you would have been happier if we converted 2/3 of our 3rd downs and still lost the big game, which is what always happens under McDaniels. It's the same tired story from 01-04 every time Manning lost, lots of excuses and finger pointing but never at Manning.

Weiss won 3 Superbowls after each time his defense gave up late points. McDaniels, in similar situations when the defense faltered, failed to deliver, once calling a game ending pick, another calling 4 straight ******ed bomb plays.

You would be surprised to know that guys like Joe Montana and Brady trail Elway, Manning, Marino in TD's and yards, yet most people would say Montana and Brady are better than the other 3.

Why are you obessessed with your McDaniels as Marino reference? When you figure that out, come back to me. Otherwise, I am done arguing with you and your irrational McDaniels hate.

 

[maverick4]

I don't think he would have. Weis hates the shotgun. I think Brady has become more of a prolific passer since he has utilized the shotgun more. Brady just feels more confident in the shotgun and he says that he can see more of the defense in that formation. Weis has been admament that he would not use that formation except for specific plays.

Granted, now that he has seen how successful Brady can be in that formation on a more regular basis, he might change his tune. But if there was never any McDaniels as OC, Brady would never had been in that formation as much and I doubt he and Moss would have broken the record otherwise.

Here you go again showing your true colors, the love for breaking records and stats. There is no denying you are cheering for the wrong team buddy, you should move to Indy among like-minded folk there who cheer stats and record books while losing most big games.

Weiss does not like shot-gun, and for good reason. It is foolish to eliminate deception from your playbook. I would like to see more play action, less shot gun, more plays where the defense does not know where the ball is going. If a defense knows pre-snap the play is a pass or a run, they don't have to play both. We play way too many formations now that telegraph to the other team that we are passing or running. Defensive ends can just tee off on our O-line if they know we are passing and don't have to play disciplined against the run.

Sure it works great during the regular season and we pile up tons of yards and points, but come playoff time when teams do more in-depth scouting, it becomes a LOT easier to stop.

 

[Rob0729]

Here you go again showing your true colors, the love for breaking records and stats. There is no denying you are cheering for the wrong team buddy, you should move to Indy among like-minded folk there who cheer stats and record books while losing most big games.

Weiss does not like shot-gun, and for good reason. It is foolish to eliminate deception from your playbook. I would like to see more play action, less shot gun, more plays where the defense does not know where the ball is going. If a defense knows pre-snap the play is a pass or a run, they don't have to play both. We play way too many formations now that telegraph to the other team that we are passing or running. Defensive ends can just tee off on our O-line if they know we are passing and don't have to play disciplined against the run.

Sure it works great during the regular season and we pile up tons of yards and points, but come playoff time when teams do more in-depth scouting, it becomes a LOT easier to stop.

Since you actually brought something new to the table, I will respond to this one. The shotgun does not eliminate deception from the playbook, it just changes the deception plays. That is why Faulk can consistently get 8 plus yards on draws from the shotgun.

Also, prior to 2004, Weis rarely used the playaction as a deception and many times gave up on the run all together in the second half of games.

BTW, playing from the shotgun didn't hurt in any playoff game in the 2006 season nor did it hurt in any game in the 2007 post season other than the Super Bowl and the Pats had far more problems than deception in the Super Bowl. In fact, the last TD drive was very telegraphed and the Giants couldn't stop it anyway.

I am tired of this deception argument. There are plenty of ways to pick apart a defense than running a lot of deception plays. What makes McDaniels a very good OC is that he finds the weakness of opposing defenses and breaks their backs with it. I have said before and I will say again, it is far more demoralizing for an opposing defense to know what is coming and unable to stop it anyway than be tricked by a play.

BTW, it isn't about stats, it is about taking the offense and judging as a single entity. Super Bowl wins go to the offense, defense, and special teams. That is why I talk about how the offense does on drives in the Super Bowl. The first Super Bowl was clearly won on defense and I am pointing out the defense hid a lot of deficiencies the offense had in that game. Although it wasn't as much carried on the defense with the Eagles, the offense struggled quite a bit against the Eagles. If Samuel holds onto an easy INT, McDaniels would have led the game winning drive similiar to what Weis did. Since he didn't, McDaniels is now the goat in your and other's eyes.

 

[apple strudel]

Here you go again showing your true colors, the love for breaking records and stats. There is no denying you are cheering for the wrong team buddy, you should move to Indy among like-minded folk there who cheer stats and record books while losing most big games.

This is the sort of childish behavior that is driving good posters from this board. Is it really necessary to resort to name-calling during a conversation about offensive strategy? It contributes nothing. And LOL @ buddy. What is this, white trash parody?

 

[DaBruinz]

I honestly believe that Weis would be a downgrade.

During his tenure with the Patriots, it became clear that Weis' Achilles heal was that he was a great strategist, but a mediocre tactician. He was slower than McDaniels on his in game adjustments. Also, Weis' ego is bigger than his britches. It started to get in the way during his last 2 seasons with the Pats, one of which started with a contract dispute.

McDaniels has gotten progressively better. He'll still send in a boneheaded play call or two a game, but it's no worse than Charlie's love affair with the delayed FB draw that never worked.

 

[Rob0729]

I honestly believe that Weis would be a downgrade.

During his tenure with the Patriots, it became clear that Weis' Achilles heal was that he was a great strategist, but a mediocre tactician. He was slower than McDaniels on his in game adjustments. Also, Weis' ego is bigger than his britches. It started to get in the way during his last 2 seasons with the Pats, one of which started with a contract dispute.

McDaniels has gotten progressively better. He'll still send in a boneheaded play call or two a game, but it's no worse than Charlie's love affair with the delayed FB draw that never worked.

That FB draw drove me insane. He would run it on most third downs whether it was 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 9.

That call almost single handily lost the Pats the game vs. the Redskins in 2003. The Pats had the ball in great field position on the final drive. On 3rd and 5 on the Redskins 38 down by three, he ran a FB draw with Centers for 2 yards. It forced Brady to throw on fourth down which went incomplete. FB draw never got the Pats more than 2-3 yards and running it on 3rd and 5 was stupid.

I do agree that Weis gets too much credit for his in game adjustments and McDaniels doesn't get enough credit. I do think Weis squandered too many drives for my liking (far too many three and outs during his career), but could step up when needed at times.

 

[juny]

I wasn't a McDaniels fan at first, but he has grown on me, and he is getting better as a play caller.

I'm not sure Weis' coaching style would fit too well, since he is super aggressive and has the in-your-face Jersey attitude. The offense may be used to the more laid-back McDaniels style, and it could be a big adjustment, as many players have moved on since Weis was around.

But at the moment, I'm not sure who is more qualified for the position if some team decides to overpay for McDaniels services.

 

[JoeSixPat]

That FB draw drove me insane. He would run it on most third downs whether it was 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 9.

That call almost single handily lost the Pats the game vs. the Redskins in 2003. The Pats had the ball in great field position on the final drive. On 3rd and 5 on the Redskins 38 down by three, he ran a FB draw with Centers for 2 yards. It forced Brady to throw on fourth down which went incomplete. FB draw never got the Pats more than 2-3 yards and running it on 3rd and 5 was stupid.

I do agree that Weis gets too much credit for his in game adjustments and McDaniels doesn't get enough credit. I do think Weis squandered too many drives for my liking (far too many three and outs during his career), but could step up when needed at times.

I actually find myself right in the middle of this debate - but its what McDaniels has done THIS year that prompts me to give him credit - NOT what he did LAST year.

I really think that any of the coaches or even potentially players would, in hindsight, admit that the offense was too Moss centered last year, and would not or could not utilize deep alternatives to Moss when they needed to. i.e. when teams double and triple teamed Moss in a third and long situation, who did we turn to as our alternative? No one - McDaniels playcall was to force a pass to Moss.

This year, even before Brady was out, the coaches seemed to acknowledge a return to a more balanced offense - which included RBs of course but also multiple WR threats, and it was largely accepted at that time that a repeat of a record TD year for Moss was not likely.

Those are the types of playcalling concerns I had and still retain.

It's clear there's opportunities to question both Weis and McDaniels playcalling over their respective tenures - the only difference is that Weis has 3 Super Bowls and McDaniels has none. That might well be the tiebreaker for me.

 

[NEPatriot]

McDaniels is the BEST. 07 was the BEST YEAR.

 

[JoeSixPat]

McDaniels is the BEST. 07 was the BEST YEAR.

Wow.

Put me down for any of the Three Super Bowl years over '07. It was fun - but utlimately a failure for anyone who views the Super Bowl as the goal.

 

[maverick4]

I am tired of this deception argument. There are plenty of ways to pick apart a defense than running a lot of deception plays. What makes McDaniels a very good OC is that he finds the weakness of opposing defenses and breaks their backs with it. I have said before and I will say again, it is far more demoralizing for an opposing defense to know what is coming and unable to stop it anyway than be tricked by a play.

BTW, it isn't about stats, it is about taking the offense and judging as a single entity. Super Bowl wins go to the offense, defense, and special teams. .

Yes, you judge the entire teams as a single entity and the entire team including defense while McDaniels has been OC has been more talented than the 01-04 teams. Yet again you sound like a Colts fan spreading the blame on the other units to compensate for why your OC God keeps coming up SHORT in big games. Look at the offensive personnel Weis worked with from 01-04, they still came up huge in every playoff game. With a great D and even greater offensive talent, McDaniels sucks it up.

You dismiss the lack of deception in our offense and don't think it's a problem, but it clearly is when you look at why we repeatedly get stopped in big games. Sure during the regular season it's great when you just telegraph your play because you came in with a good game plan, and the other team can't stop it most of the time. Come playoff time it is a lot more complex than just running the same predictable plays over and over. Then it's not just about execution, it is also about putting the opposing team off balance and taking advantage of your own self-scouting of yourself.

The Rams used to be devastating with slants and in cuts, they would simply do it over and over and nobody could stop them. They were so arrogant about it that even when it wasn't working on the Pats, Martz kept trying to do it without adjusting. Same thing with the Colts, Peyton Manning has a half dozen bread and butter plays he uses over and over, but come playoff time when those plays are keyed and stopped, the guy chokes, his playoff numbers are horrible.

The same thing applies to our current offense. The opposing team the past few playoffs figures out our 6 favorite plays and we stubbornly keep doing it over and over, and then blame it on "execution" when we fall on our face in the playoffs.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, you judge the entire teams as a single entity and the entire team including defense while McDaniels has been OC has been more talented than the 01-04 teams. Yet again you sound like a Colts fan spreading the blame on the other units to compensate for why your OC God keeps coming up SHORT in big games. Look at the offensive personnel Weis worked with from 01-04, they still came up huge in every playoff game. With a great D and even greater offensive talent, McDaniels sucks it up.

You dismiss the lack of deception in our offense and don't think it's a problem, but it clearly is when you look at why we repeatedly get stopped in big games. Sure during the regular season it's great when you just telegraph your play because you came in with a good game plan, and the other team can't stop it most of the time. Come playoff time it is a lot more complex than just running the same predictable plays over and over. Then it's not just about execution, it is also about putting the opposing team off balance and taking advantage of your own self-scouting of yourself.

The Rams used to be devastating with slants and in cuts, they would simply do it over and over and nobody could stop them. They were so arrogant about it that even when it wasn't working on the Pats, Martz kept trying to do it without adjusting. Same thing with the Colts, Peyton Manning has a half dozen bread and butter plays he uses over and over, but come playoff time when those plays are keyed and stopped, the guy chokes, his playoff numbers are horrible.

The same thing applies to our current offense. The opposing team the past few playoffs figures out our 6 favorite plays and we stubbornly keep doing it over and over, and then blame it on "execution" when we fall on our face in the playoffs.

Wow! You had one post with new material until you went back to the same BS.

So were the Rams so predictable to Kurt Warner got injury prone? That and Marshall Faulk's decline was the reason the Rams fell off the face of the earth. Warner only played 7 games in 2002 and 2 games in 2003. Also, Faulk only played 14 games (started only 10) in 2002 and played only 11 in 2003. Could that be the reason for the Rams' offense declining so rapidly rather than getting too predictable? It is kinda predictable that the offense will decline if a two time MVP QB and one time league MVP RB get sideline for significant portions of the season. It had nothing to do with predictability.

Also, Manning got over the hump of beating the Pats in the playoffs by being extremely predictable. The Pats knew he was going to pass to Dallas Clark over the middle and the Pats had no answer for it.

 

[maverick4]

So were the Rams so predictable to Kurt Warner got injury prone? That and Marshall Faulk's decline was the reason the Rams fell off the face of the earth. Warner only played 7 games in 2002 and 2 games in 2003. Also, Faulk only played 14 games (started only 10) in 2002 and played only 11 in 2003. Could that be the reason for the Rams' offense declining so rapidly rather than getting too predictable? It is kinda predictable that the offense will decline if a two time MVP QB and one time league MVP RB get sideline for significant portions of the season. It had nothing to do with predictability.

Also, Manning got over the hump of beating the Pats in the playoffs by being extremely predictable. The Pats knew he was going to pass to Dallas Clark over the middle and the Pats had no answer for it.

It is a complete waste of time talking with someone who is a closet Colts fan.

Your entire post is as usual complete garbage. I am referring to how the 2001 Rams got stopped, not why their team fell out of competitiveness years later. I am referring to how the 01-04 Colts offense, and also Steelers for that matter, were stopped by the Patriots in the playoffs because of their complete predictability in what they would do, which works great in the regular season but not in the playoffs.

I would consider asking you why you think the Colts never beat the Pats from 01-04, but I know it's a waste of time, you sound EXACTLY like a Colts fan and will give the usual BS about giving all the credit to the Pats D and blaming the Colts D. You probably think Peyton is a better QB too, or at least did think that before Brady's 07 season. The only thing you worship is stats.

 

[Rob0729]

It is a complete waste of time talking with someone who is a closet Colts fan.

Your entire post is as usual complete garbage. I am referring to how the 2001 Rams got stopped, not why their team fell out of competitiveness years later. I am referring to how the 01-04 Colts offense, and also Steelers for that matter, were stopped by the Patriots in the playoffs because of their complete predictability in what they would do, which works great in the regular season but not in the playoffs.

I would consider asking you why you think the Colts never beat the Pats from 01-04, but I know it's a waste of time, you sound EXACTLY like a Colts fan and will give the usual BS about giving all the credit to the Pats D and blaming the Colts D. You probably think Peyton is a better QB too, or at least did think that before Brady's 07 season. The only thing you worship is stats.

LOL! If you want to have an intelligent argument, fire away. You want to keep up with this stupidity. Go argue with yourself. I have desire to deal with your McDaniels bashing agenda. No one is buying your "McDaniels is good OC, now let me tell you how his is a horrible OC and is the reason why this team has fallen apart in every situation including on defense and special teams".