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Would Weis be an upgrade over McDaniels as OC?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JoeSixPat, Nov 29, 2008.

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Is Weis an Upgrade, Downgrade, or Even Swap compared to McDaniels as OC?

Poll closed Feb 27, 2009.
  1. Weis is an upgrade over McDaniels

    33.7%
  2. Weis is a downgrade over McDaniels

    37.0%
  3. Weis and McDaniels is pretty much an even swap

    29.3%
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  1. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Here's a pretty simple poll:

    Given the strong speculation that Weis will be fired as HC of ND - and the strong speculation that McDaniels will be a contender for a HC position of his own next year - would you view Weis as an upgrade, downgrade or pretty much the status quo at Offensive Coordinator for the 2009 Patriots?

    Recognizing there's a lot of "if's" here - for the purposes of this poll, assume McDaniels accepts a HC position, Weis is fired, wants to come back here and Belichick wants him back.

    Feel free to discuss your rationale

    Again - this is NOT a poll asking if you want to keep McDaniels - assume he's gone after this season.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  2. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan Rookie

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    Weis looks for matchups

    McDaniels will bang the oppositions' heads with the strengths of this team

    Not saying JM is bad or anything, but looking for matchups has been somewhat of a weakness since Weis left. JMHO
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nothing against Charlie who I really like as the OC, you have to look at the body of work last year.. and what has happened to Cassell this year.. right now McDaniels is the best OC for this team..
  4. slash83

    slash83 Rookie

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    Id be fine with keeping McDaniels over Weis, our offense has been great with McDaniels no need for a change there. If he leaves though for a HC position Weis would be on the top of my list for McDaniels replacement.
  5. OhExaulted1

    OhExaulted1 Rookie

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    Let's go out and get Mike Martz. If you can't beat 'em join 'em, right? Josh will be coaching somewhere else next year, no doubt about it.
  6. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Believe it or not I was somewhat torn, as I can definately make some arguments that given the pros and cons of both, it'd be an even swap. (The Pros of McDaniels primarilly being that he knows this current personnel - but again, keeping him is not an option in this poll)

    But all things considered - and especially given the breadth and depth of Weis' experience, I have to give him the edge over McDaniels and call it an upgrade.

    If the question were keeping McDaniels or upgrading with Weis, I'd go with McDaniels as the less change the better for the offense. But that's not what we're talking about here... assuming McDaniels is gone, and Weis is back in at OC, I have to give Weis a decent edge over an OC like McDaniels who has limited NFL experience.

    I'll confess that I'll defer to any Notre Dame fan as far as knowing of Weis' experience at ND - but I put Weis in a class of guys who are better suited to be Coordinators rather than coaches. No knock on McDaniels as an OC, but I get the feeling he might be in that same category, with HC in the NFL that much harder than coaching 18-22 year olds in College.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  7. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    As noted, for the purposes of this poll, assume McDaniels is gone and Weis is in.

    Is Weis an upgrade, downgrade, or even swap?

    This isn't a poll asking whether you want to jettison McDaniels to a HC position with another team.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  8. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    It's hard to tell. Both have been brilliant at times, both have made calls that make you cringe at times.

    Overall I am happy with both as playcallers, so I would take either one. I know Charlie has the rings, but the only times this offense has had trouble moving the ball in the playoffs under JM was in '06 @ SD and last year's SB, and neither were truly his fault IMO. Our offense had some tough performances even in the championship years under Charlie.
  9. Rawky77

    Rawky77 Rookie

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    Weis has way too many gimmicky throw away plays for my liking. Josh consistently plays to the oppositions weakness while keeping the opposition honest with adequate smash mouth run plays.

    The offense no longer needs to play tricky every week to win but i doubt weis would be able to control his desire to run them anyway.
  10. slash83

    slash83 Rookie

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    I voted for even swap, but Id prefer no change.
  11. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'll take Weiss, he has three rings with BB and Brady. He and Brady are very close.

    Weiss is an offensive genius and he certainly has great game day calling intuition and skill which has taken him a career to hone.

    Think about some of tPatriot offenses he won with and how he did it

    Give Charlie weapons such as this team now has and the results woudl be incredible, also, I really think he would have made the difference last Feb.

    I like Josh McD, but he will gone soon and Weiss should settle in nicely for a number years.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  12. PatsWickedPissah

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    Weis is a downgrade over J McD who is on the rise and yet to meet his potential. That said, I love Weis in training camp when he humerously dumps over the players when they screw up. Yet another feature lost when the Pats went bigtime corporate and left Smithfield. You could stand on the sidelines there and hear it all. Freakin' hilarious.
  13. Rob0729

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    McDaniels and Weis were better and worse than other in different ways. I think both brought different things to the table. I would rather have McDaniels on a critical third down play, but I would rather have Charlie on a final drive. I think both have strong relationships with Brady so I see no advantage their other than maybe a slight edge to McDaniels because Brady loves the shotgun and so does McDaniels while Weis isn't a huge fan. Both guys had their flaws that got the offense in trouble at times too.

    I would be happy with either guy, but if I had a choice of both now it would be McDaniels. I'd rather keep the continuity as is.
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Again, just to re-stress, for the purposes of this poll, McDaniels is gone and Weis is here. Upgrade, Downgrade, Even swap.

    I'd wager that the vast majority of us would prefer consistency in our Coordinators and coaching positions. But that's not the question here.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  15. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tough to tell. I would say a fairly even swap, but depending on how they change the personnel next year I would say it is a downgrade based on this year's team (with or without Brady). This offense is more tooled for McDaniels' style of play calling than Weis'. Weis tends to favor the TE and FB far more than McDaniels does and that is arguably the two weakest areas of the offense. Heath Evans is a good blocker, but he isn't a passing or rushing threat like Larry Centers, Marc Edwards, or Patrick Pass were.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  16. Truck

    Truck Rookie

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    I think its hard to tell. Weis has a history of making the offense overachieve (or rather make the big plays when needed); and was able to do it with less talent. McD has been able to get this offense to click, but hasn't been able to get the last game winning (or tieing) playoff drive to succeed.

    If Weis had 07 Pats offense, you don't know whether he'd have changed his philosophy or not. Often coaches have a style, and their success depends on having players who meet that style. Would Weis have gone shotgun, pass happy like McD if he were OC last year and led the team to the greatest offensive season in history; or would he have tried to force the run?

    I think McD has more upside (he's still young & learning); and given we know the offense works as is, I'd take McD next year over Weis.

    But Weis brings stability as well. If Weis were the OC next year, he'd be the OC for the rest of Brady's career (I doubt he'd get a HC job for a few years).

    So here's how I'd rank them:
    1. McD stays as OC until Brady is out
    2. McD takes a HC position in the same year Weis gets fired and Weis takes the spot
    3. Worst case: McD takes a HC position in a year that Weis doesn't get fired, and we're left to find someone (or internal promotion) to take the spot and have to deal with the growing pains...
  17. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I never really thought this offense was built with McDaniels in mind - I'd say that McDaniels has adapted to the offense that's here - which is a compliment in my book.

    I felt Weis also was adept at that though.

    This season, McDaniels has shown he can get the most out of an average offense. Weis was able to do that and win Super Bowls (with a less talented WR corps but of course, WITH Brady). I'm sure there'd be a learning curve with Weis getting to know the offense, but all things even, noting that keeping McDaniels is not an option, I'll give Weis' experience the edge, noting he has just a bit more time in the NFL than McDaniels, and call him an upgrade.
  18. billdog3484

    billdog3484 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    even though McDaniels probably single handedly cost us a perfect season by failing to change his gameplan in the super bowl, I think he learned his lesson. He has been great this year in calling plays and integrating more plays into the offense as Cassel has improved. I like him now. Weis would be a nice addition, but how can you replace a guy who ran the most prolific offense of all time just 1 year ago?
  19. WhiZa

    WhiZa Rookie

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    Agreed. Weis has won 3 superbowls while McDaniels offense has just put up staggering numbers. Granted you need a defense to win games too but, Weis was able to scored enough to win close games and big games with a less talented offense.
  20. blackglass3

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    Let's say Weis doesn't come back AND McDaniels leaves...who is in line after JM? Will it be BB doing the OC stuff again for a season while coaching up an assistant like what happened in 05, or would we maybe bring in someone new?
  21. Rob0729

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    I still people overrate the Super Bowl wins as the differentiator. If the offense in any of those Super Bowls won or lost the game, I would agree. The Pats scored 10 offensive points vs. the Rams in the first Super Bowl. Does anyone think that would have been enough to beat the Greatest Show on Turf if the defense didn't hold up their end of the deal and totally shut down the Rams for three quarters? Or how about 2 weeks earlier where the offense also scored 10 point and the special teams scored 14 points? Or would the legend of Brady and his last clutch drives in the Super Bowl been even more enhanced last February if either Samuel or Meriweather held onto sure interceptions on the follow his TD drive? Or would 27 offensive points been enough agains the Colts if the defense didn't surrender 35 points in the second half of the AFC Championships the year before?

    Defense and special teams have played big roles in many of the Pats' playoff wins and losses including the Super Bowls during the Belichick area that I don't know if you can compare any of the coordinators based solely on their Super Bowl rings. It is like Elway. He was never compared one of the greatest of all time until he won two rings. But he didn't get any better those Super Bowl years. The players around him did. Personally, I am more impressed with him during the years he got some very average talent into the Super Bowl and lost than the years he had Terrell Davis and a strong defense to help him win one.
  22. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    McDaniels is like the Marino of coordinators, sexy stats but he chokes in big games and stubbornly doesn't adjust. He goes into most games with good game plans but if it doesn't work we are toast. He doesn't like deception, he will flat out telegraph to the other team what he is doing and dare them to stop it, and most times they cannot.

    That being said, Weis is a major upgrade. Weis is not concerned about the sexy stats, he wants to win. That means setting up a defense with some plays in order to fool them later. Self scouting yourself in order to create more deception later on in the season. Make key adjustments in-game. Get the big play at the big moment, time and time again. Secure the game winning drive to seal the game or win it.

    The argument is like Brady vs Manning from 01-04. The guy with the rings and the consistent playoff success, or the arrogant douchebag with the sexy stats who sucks it up in big moments.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  23. Laurence Maroney's Dreads

    Laurence Maroney's Dreads Rookie

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    Who knows? I see three possibilities, assuming (and this is a HUGE assumption at this point) that Josh McDaniels leaves and Weis doesn't return. Firstly, Belichick himself runs the offense for a couple years until someone in the organization is ready to step up. The second possibility is that someone like Dante Scarnecchia gets the nod - he's been involved in this Patriots offense forever. The third of course is the introduction of an offensive coordinator from outside of the organization, namely Mike Martz. I know Belichick seems to love the guy for some reason...
  24. Sporin

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    x2 agreed
  25. spacecrime

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    Good read, and good analogy.

    It was the refusal (or inability) to adjust in the superbowl that turned me off on McDaniels. Worse is that he hasn't seemed to change. This "my way right or wrong" crap is so much like Mike Martz, which is why I hope the other poster is wrong and we never end up with him as a coordinator.
  26. Deus Irae

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    Some points that are often missed, ignored or downplayed:

    1.) Under McDaniels, A team with Reche Caldwell as the #1 receiver was 7th in scoring in the NFL.

    2.) The team has, to date, never failed to make the playoffs with McDaniels as the O.C.

    3.) McDaniels will be a hotter coaching commidity than Weis ever was.

    4.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the only team in NFL history to go 16-0 in the regular season.

    5.) McDaniels was the O.C. for the #1 scoring offense in NFL history.

    6.) McDaniels has developed Cassel into the player that some people here actually want to keep over Brady.

    Weis will be a definite downgrade if he replaces McDaniels, to my way of thinking.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  27. belichickaholic

    belichickaholic Rookie

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    What about Randy? How will that go down? Something like the clash of the Titans I would think. :D
  28. JoePats

    JoePats Rookie

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    I realize that the OP isn't advotating a demotion of McDaniels but...

    Hypothetically, if McDaniels were to not get a HC job and Charlie wanted to come back, he would not take McDaniels' place, but rather be the Asst HC of something like BB was when he got fired from the Browns. So it's kid of irrelevant.

    I would take Weis though.
  29. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I'm interested to know why it is you feel that there's no way that Weis would have been as productive with Brady and Moss, Brady and Welker etc.?

    I'm not sure I'm willing to give McDaniels the majority of credit for all those accomplishments either. I'm certainly not taking points off, but I think it makes sense to look beyond just the gross numbers.

    McDaniels also has no Super Bowls to his credit as OC. Of course, it would make as little sense to blame him for that as it would to give him credit for all the accomplishments either -reality is much more complex than that.

    I'd think most would look beyond an overly simplistic analysis such as that.
  30. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Wow since when did Pats fans become a bunch of Colts-sounding fans?

    From 01-04 would any of you take Manning over Brady given the choice?

    Brady had steady but not amazing stats, came through under pressure in big games, won multiple rings. Manning had the ridiculous stats, choked multiple times. People dismissed Brady's greatness by saying it was his defense, they defended Manning by blaming it on the O-line, the defense, everyone else but the QB.

    It is the EXACT SAME thing going on here between Weis vs. McDaniels.

    How can some of you choose Brady over Manning in the 01-04 argument, and then in this thread start babbling like a bunch of Colts fans over stats when talking about McDaniels vs Weiss. Didn't we of all fan bases learn how the big sexy stats don't necessarily mean one guy is better than the other?

    McDaniels is like Mike Martz to me, they both act like/think they are the greatest, they will openly telegraph the opposing unit that 'this is what we are doing, you are not going to stop it'. Most of the time it works great, but their arrogance is a major achilles heel in big games, the same way the arrogance of Manning and Marino is a major reason why they are hall of fame chokers.

    The one year Weiss had great offensive talent, in 04, that offense was dominant, even though we had a 7th-rd receiver in Givens and another smurf in Branch and a cast-off OL. I would argue that every offense McDaniels worked with had superior talent to anything Weiss had to work with from 2001-2003 and possibly even 2004. Ever since McDaniels has taken over we have blown tons of high draft picks on offensive players, which we never did under Weiss except to take TE.

    Someone please give me an argument over which coordinator is better without sounding like a stats-obsessed Colts fan. You will never convince me that Manning is better than Brady, or that A-Rod is better than Jeter by using stats.
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