We Could Trade Givens, I'd Franchise Him

[BelichickFan]

There's a downside as we'd have to allocate the money and handcuff ourselves until he's traded. But this year's draft absolutely blows for WR. I like Holmes. I like Moss but he's not for everyone with his size. There's a few decent FA although Wayne will never get there and I doubt Antonio Bryant or Randle El will either. The rest are mostly interesting guys.

I'm not saying we would get a coup like a #1 for Givens but we got something like a #3 and #4 for Tebucky Jones and I bet we could get the same for Givens.

I would also consider keeping him for one year at that high franchise number as we don't have many other FA issues this year. Keep him for a year, see what the CBA situation ends up being, if it's similar to now we could let him go 12 months from now when we need to re-sign other guys like Seymour and Branch.

 

[fgssand]

There's a downside as we'd have to allocate the money and handcuff ourselves until he's traded. But this year's draft absolutely blows for WR. I like Holmes. I like Moss but he's not for everyone with his size. There's a few decent FA although Wayne will never get there and I doubt Antonio Bryant or Randle El will either. The rest are mostly interesting guys.

I'm not saying we would get a coup like a #1 for Givens but we got something like a #3 and #4 for Tebucky Jones and I bet we could get the same for Givens.

I would also consider keeping him for one year at that high franchise number as we don't have many other FA issues this year. Keep him for a year, see what the CBA situation ends up being, if it's similar to now we could let him go 12 months from now when we need to re-sign other guys like Seymour and Branch.

You are advocating spending 6MM for David Givens as a franchise, but wont consider more than 2MM for Adam V.?

 

[UGAPatsfan]

i would franchise him only if he had some trade value which I am not sure...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Last year as a mid level tendered RFA (much to his and his agents chagrin)Givens didn't get a nibble. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He is not a tag and trade caliber player, and I guarantee you he and his agent would sign that tag in a heartbeat because it alone represents more than he's going to see in guaranteed money from anyone. Plus he gets another year with Brady and FA in a better year (with a CBA or no cap) to negotiate a long term deal. We'd be stuck with a #2 for elite #1 money against the cap because once he signs the tag can't be withdrawn. That's insane.

The only reason BB has used the tag of Vinatieri thus far is because with a kicker it's affordable. And he and AV obviously have a longstanding arrangement that includes negotiating while tagged (Adam never signs his tags until the last day).

 

[Bill's Girl]

Can someone give me the basics on how the franchise tag works? If it gets applied, then Givens stays with the Patriots for one more year, but how does the money work out? When does the tag come off the player? Is it a specified period of time or does it only come off when placed on another player?

 

[soelman]

Last year as a mid level tendered RFA (much to his and his agents chagrin)Givens didn't get a nibble. Nada. Zip. Zilch. He is not a tag and trade caliber player, and I guarantee you he and his agent would sign that tag in a heartbeat because it alone represents more than he's going to see in guaranteed money from anyone. Plus he gets another year with Brady and FA in a better year (with a CBA or no cap) to negotiate a long term deal. We'd be stuck with a #2 for elite #1 money against the cap because once he signs the tag can't be withdrawn. That's insane.

The only reason BB has used the tag of Vinatieri thus far is because with a kicker it's affordable. And he and AV obviously have a longstanding arrangement that includes negotiating while tagged (Adam never signs his tags until the last day).

You don't think that Given's value has increased considerably since last year at this time? I'm not sure if I am misinterpreting what you're saying.

 

[BelichickFan]

You are advocating spending 6MM for David Givens as a franchise, but wont consider more than 2MM for Adam V.?

Yes, it would be a lot easier to replace the 17th most accurate kicker last year cheap than it would be to replace a starting WR.

 

[Alk]

If we franchise Givens, there is little to no chance we trade him because we would be the only idiots willing to give him that kind of money.

 

[BelichickFan]

We'd be stuck with a #2 for elite #1 money against the cap because once he signs the tag can't be withdrawn. That's insane.

Only for one year. And we don't have much else to sign, just Neal and Ashworth if we even want them back. If we have a shot at a good player long term then I'd prefer to go in that direction but as we have little to re-sign this offseason, I would overspend for Givens for one more year.

 

[Alk]

Can someone give me the basics on how the franchise tag works? If it gets applied, then Givens stays with the Patriots for one more year, but how does the money work out? When does the tag come off the player? Is it a specified period of time or does it only come off when placed on another player?

The salary for a franchise player is the average of the top 5 paid players at that position. So it's basically saying "This player is one of the absolute best at his position" If signed, that player has the tag on him for one season. He can still be signed by another team I believe but they would have to fork over two 1st. round picks to us.

 

[BelichickFan]

If we franchise Givens, there is little to no chance we trade him because we would be the only idiots willing to give him that kind of money.

Givens would take less per year for a 4-5 year deal. There will definitely be bidders to give him a solid long term deal and one of them easily could trade a third round pick to get that right.

 

[Alk]

Only for one year. And we don't have much else to sign, just Neal and Ashworth if we even want them back. If we have a shot at a good player long term then I'd prefer to go in that direction but as we have little to re-sign this offseason, I would overspend for Givens for one more year.

I'm sorry but I gotta disagree. We have alot more to worry about than signing Neal and Ashworth. This team is getting old in certain areas and they need to be addressed now. We would probably be overpaying Givens by about $4 million. That $4 million would go a long way in making our LB corps alot younger and getting a RB for the future if not present.

 

[BelichickFan]

The salary for a franchise player is the average of the top 5 paid players at that position. So it's basically saying "This player is one of the absolute best at his position" If signed, that player has the tag on him for one season. He can still be signed by another team I believe but they would have to fork over two 1st. round picks to us.

Plus you can trade a franchised guy and the new team can get out of the franchise amount by agreeing to a new long term contract with the player. Just like what happened with Peerless Price and Tebucky Jones.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I think Givens is being over-valued by the Pats fans, it's natural - we love our players the best and think they are better than players on other teams. But it is very difficult to imagine Givens getting $6mil/yr from anyone, let alone the Pats. Plus, Givens' limited trade value is weakened by being viewed as product of the Pat's system and as an overachiever. Even if he were signed to a reasonable $3mil/yr x 3 yr contract he'd likely only fetch a second rounder at the very best.

Givens is tough, versatile and a high effort guy but will never be a number one and thus should never get that kind of money. Pats offer him $2.2/yr max, I bet...

 

[hwc]

And we don't have much else to sign.

We must be looking at different rosters. Not counting assorted practice squad and NFL Europe type guys who have never played a down, here's where we stand.

A) Offensive Line: We have exactly two guards under contract: Mankins and Hochstein. I don't think that's enough.

B) Wide Receiver: We have two wide receivers under contract - Branch and Bethel. We need to acquire at least three NFL caliber wide receivers. If you pay Givens franchise tag money, how do you afford the other two?

C) Cornerback: Assuming that Poole and Stark get cut for cap purposes, we have two CBs under contract: Samuel and Hobbs. We can't even put a nickle package on the field right now.

D) Safety: Not counting Rodney Harrison, we have two safeties under contract - Wilson and Sanders.

E) Kicker: We don't have a placekicker on the roster. I think everyone would agree that we probably need one to start the season.

So we need to sign 1 kicker, 2 offensive linemen, 3 wide receivers, and 5 defensive backs capable of making the 53 man roster. We are currently $3 million over the cap. Maybe my math is wrong, but I don't see $5 million in the kitty for a #2 wide receiver.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the Pats are in dire cap trouble. Pioli is good at what he does and we'll free up cap room as needed. But, I don't see a lot of cap money in the budget for luxuries like a $5 million #2 wide receiver.

 

[Bill's Girl]

The salary for a franchise player is the average of the top 5 paid players at that position. So it's basically saying "This player is one of the absolute best at his position" If signed, that player has the tag on him for one season. He can still be signed by another team I believe but they would have to fork over two 1st. round picks to us.

I thought that is how it worked, but I did not know the part about giving two first rounders! Thanks for the 411!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There's a downside as we'd have to allocate the money and handcuff ourselves until he's traded. But this year's draft absolutely blows for WR. I like Holmes. I like Moss but he's not for everyone with his size. There's a few decent FA although Wayne will never get there and I doubt Antonio Bryant or Randle El will either. The rest are mostly interesting guys.

I'm not saying we would get a coup like a #1 for Givens but we got something like a #3 and #4 for Tebucky Jones and I bet we could get the same for Givens.

I would also consider keeping him for one year at that high franchise number as we don't have many other FA issues this year. Keep him for a year, see what the CBA situation ends up being, if it's similar to now we could let him go 12 months from now when we need to re-sign other guys like Seymour and Branch.

It worked for Oakland with Charles Woodson! Are you an Al Davis standing under the same sun?

 

[Patriot Games]

Yes, it would be a lot easier to replace the 17th most accurate kicker last year cheap than it would be to replace a starting WR.

Rackers
Phil Dawson
Joe Nedney
Todd Peterson
Vanderjerk
Stover
Shane Graham
Nate Kaeding
Jeff Wilkins
John Hall
Matt Bryant
Jay Feeley
Olindo Mare
Lindell
Jeff Reed
Tynes

Which one of these kickers with a better FG % than Vinatieri would you want to line up for a 47 yarder with the game on the line in the playoffs more than Vinatieri?

If your answer is anything other than "none of the above" you are an idiot. Statistics for kickers need to be looked at more closely than simply reciting a kicker's ranking. At least 9 of those kickers make the majority of their kicks indoors or in nice weather. Also, Vinatieri only had 17 ATTEMPTS under 40 yards. Most of those kickers had many more opportunities in that range to pad their %. He missed 5 FG's all year and 2 of those were from over 50 yards.

You don't replace kickers "cheap" if you want to go far in the playoffs.

Replacing Vinatieri would be much more difficult than replacing Givens.

 

[Digger44]

He can still be signed by another team I believe but they would have to fork over two 1st. round picks to us.

bingo husker. What team would give up $6 mil + 2 #1 picks for Givens? There is no way he is worth that. This whole thread is based on the idea that the draft picks can be negotiated. They cannot. A team must give up 2 #1 picks. That aint happening.

 

[mcsully]

There is another angle people are not looking with this discussion.. The facts are Givens is one of the Top WR in the free agent market (next to Wayne). I think we can agree on that.. Can we also agree that there is going to be a lot of competition for his services.. Maybe he won't get 4 or 5 million but he'll get a nice bonus..
IMHO I believe the jets, Dolphins and brown will want him.. Maybe they won't but just for purpose sake they do. This is the time the Pats should play Poker with other teams.. See who blinks first.. Slap the Franchise tag on him. Work the phones until the end of the draft (seeing if you can acquire more picks or move up from the #1 pick). If something works , you get real value for him.
If all else fails, who says you can't remove the Franchise Tag from him..
Atleast you tried..

Then again, he might be back for a home town discount but that is for another thread..