Update: Curran says Belichick has been on the hot seat since 2019

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It does not fall on me to research a point you are trying to make. If you have any evidence that Super Bowl teams have fewer rookies than the League overall does, feel free to present it.

But I wouldn't research Super Bowl 49 if I were you.... You see, Russell Wilson was a veteran and Malcolm Butler was a rookie and veterans just know how to win and rookies don't....

Where did I say they were?

It's was to figure out the SB champ. It's the team that has the fewest draft picks in April.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I never said that. I said, and stand by, that the SB teams each year are generally a veteran group. There have been some good to great rookie performances in the Superbowls - Butler and Michel being two of the most recent examples (and easily top-10 among rookie performances in the history of the big game), but the teams around them, as usual, were a VETERAN group.



You're not very good at being clever, though you clearly think you are. If you take the strawmen out of your argument, you have none. look at the Patriots defense on this particular play: Revis, Browner, McCourty, Chung, Hightower, Jones - they had like 3 or 4 guys on their rookie deals, all in year 3 or 4 of their contract. it was a veteran group. It always is.



Where did you conflate "rookie" with on "rookie contract"? Here:

It does when you say something as phenomenally stupid as "veterans know how to win." By your own logic, veterans also know how to lose. And tie.

Then why does any team have any rookies at all? According to your logic, you should have all veterans. After all, they "know how to win."

There is no "factual evidence" in that statement. I can simply respond with the 2019 KC Chiefs. Their superstar QB and WR were each still on rookie contracts.
Bottom line is this: It is better to draft well than to draft poorly. NE has drafted very poorly of late. There is only one man responsible for this.

Well let's see here...in isolating players in exactly their first season, I wonder why those players are seen less than every player from every other experience group combined. Hmmm....

 

[50-yard-line]

Well let's see here...in isolating players in exactly their first season, I wonder why those players are seen less than every player from every other experience group combined. Hmmm....

A third or fourth year player in the NFL isn't a rookie. For a lot of players, that will be their peak years.

Is this too hard for you to understand?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A third or fourth year player in the NFL isn't a rookie. For a lot of players, that will be their peak years.

Is this too hard for you to understand?

For some rookie years will be their peak years. What's your point?

 

[50-yard-line]

For some rookie years will be their peak years. What's your point?

Just to show that YOU conflated rookie with rookie contract. That was my only point in this diversionary tangent you're driving down.

Your rebuttal: "Their superstar QB and WR were each still on rookie contract" is a non-sequitur to the previous conversation and rebuts nothing,

Point stands.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Just to show that YOU conflated rookie with rookie contract. That was my only point in this diversionary tangent you're driving down.

Your rebuttal: "Their superstar QB and WR were each still on rookie contract" is a non-sequitur to the previous conversation and rebuts nothing,

Point stands.

What in the actual **** are you talking about? I said nothing of that. You must be confusing my post with someone else's.

Every team picks a handful of rookies each year. Of those rookies it's expected only a few - at most - will be impactful contributors. When they're playing well enough to make an impact their rookie season there is zero reason they can't make an impact in the playoffs or Super Bowl. You're operating from superstitious beliefs and using a small availability pool (rookies on SB roster who are good enough to play) to make a ridiculous point. And it isn't even accurate. Seymour, Light, Wilson, Koppen, Wilfork, Meriweather, Stork, Thuney, Mitchell, Michel. Almost all these guys started in the SB and played significantly.

 

[50-yard-line]

What in the actual **** are you talking about? I said nothing of that. You must be confusing my post with someone else's.

Every team picks a handful of rookies each year. Of those rookies it's expected only a few - at most - will be impactful contributors. When they're playing well enough to make an impact their rookie season there is zero reason they can't make an impact in the playoffs or Super Bowl. You're operating from superstitious beliefs and using a small availability pool (rookies on SB roster who are good enough to play) to make a ridiculous point. And it isn't even accurate. Seymour, Light, Wilson, Koppen, Wilfork, Meriweather, Stork, Thuney, Mitchell, Michel. Almost all these guys started in the SB and played significantly.

You're right, my post was for XLIX. I get all you Felger drones mixed up because you're all equally boring and read from the same damned script.
The point was simple: SB teams are usually veteran teams. And in the five-year run, 14-18, and also in trying to salvage 19, the Patriots traded away a ton of draft capital, had more of it stolen on the bogus Deflategate nonsense, and drafted at the END of every round.

They were also drafting for players who could find a way onto a deep veteran roster. Of the top 10 rookie performances in the SB, two would be Sony Michel and Malcolm Butler. I'm pretty sure they picked Michel because he was the most pro-ready of RB choices and they needed a lead RB. Michel could block and pick up blitzes better than any of the other possibilities. And Butler, for his performance was surrounded by Revis, Browner, McCourty, and Chung.

The Pats certainly had a couple of stinker drafts - 2019 was putrid, particularly considering who was still sitting there. They've got 3 keepers from 20 in Uche, Onwenu, and Dugger (Jennings?); three from 21 in Mac, Barmore, and Stevenson (Perkins? Bledsoe?); all 10 still in the mix from 22, with Jones, Jones, Strange and likely Strong and Harris contributing a lot this year, Zappe backing up QB, Thornton?); and what I think might be the best draft of all coming in as rookies right now.


We'll never agree - I'm okay with that - I'm excited about the rebuild, I think the core is in place and when it clicks will be on the shoulders of Mac or whoever replaces him if he ain't the guy.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You're right, my post was for XLIX. I get all you Felger drones mixed up because you're all equally boring and read from the same damned script.
The point was simple: SB teams are usually veteran teams. And in the five-year run, 14-18, and also in trying to salvage 19, the Patriots traded away a ton of draft capital, had more of it stolen on the bogus Deflategate nonsense, and drafted at the END of every round.

They were also drafting for players who could find a way onto a deep veteran roster. Of the top 10 rookie performances in the SB, two would be Sony Michel and Malcolm Butler. I'm pretty sure they picked Michel because he was the most pro-ready of RB choices and they needed a lead RB. Michel could block and pick up blitzes better than any of the other possibilities. And Butler, for his performance was surrounded by Revis, Browner, McCourty, and Chung.

The Pats certainly had a couple of stinker drafts - 2019 was putrid, particularly considering who was still sitting there. They've got 3 keepers from 20 in Uche, Onwenu, and Dugger (Jennings?); three from 21 in Mac, Barmore, and Stevenson (Perkins? Bledsoe?); all 10 still in the mix from 22, with Jones, Jones, Strange and likely Strong and Harris contributing a lot this year, Zappe backing up QB, Thornton?); and what I think might be the best draft of all coming in as rookies right now.


We'll never agree - I'm okay with that - I'm excited about the rebuild, I think the core is in place and when it clicks will be on the shoulders of Mac or whoever replaces him if he ain't the guy.

If you’re using rookies versus non-rookies (which includes every player with 1+ yrs experience) then every team is a veteran team, Super Bowl or not. Are there other NFL teams that play 27 rookies as their featured players?

 

[TheRainMaker]

How easily we want to forgot the 2001 team.

Seymour - rookie. Defense ran through him.

Matt Light - rookie. Held down the 2nd most important position on offense.

Tom Brady - 2nd year player playing real minutes for the first time.

JR Redmond - 2nd year player made some clutch grabs.

Greg Robinson Randall - 2nd year player played some real minutes at RT.

 

[Ring 6]

How easily we want to forgot the 2001 team.

Seymour - rookie. Defense ran through him.

Matt Light - rookie. Held down the 2nd most important position on offense.

Tom Brady - 2nd year player playing real minutes for the first time.

JR Redmond - 2nd year player made some clutch grabs.

Greg Robinson Randall - 2nd year player played some real minutes at RT.

What are you arguing? Did someone say you should have zero rookies?
The 2001 Patriots brought in as many veteran free agents as most any team ever has
They are literally the #1 example of bringing in veterans to win.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

How easily we want to forgot the 2001 team.

Seymour - rookie. Defense ran through him.

Matt Light - rookie. Held down the 2nd most important position on offense.

Tom Brady - 2nd year player playing real minutes for the first time.

JR Redmond - 2nd year player made some clutch grabs.

Greg Robinson Randall - 2nd year player played some real minutes at RT.

Apparently some UDFA rookie cornerback made a big play in SB49…don’t remember much about it.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Apparently some UDFA rookie cornerback made a big play in SB49…don’t remember much about it.

What are you arguing? Did someone say you should have zero rookies?
The 2001 Patriots brought in as many veteran free agents as most any team ever has
They are literally the #1 example of bringing in veterans to win.

This all started by someone stating rookies weren't on the roster because the team didn't have room which is far from the truth. The reality is, rookies or 2nd year players will see playing time if they are worthy of it. There are plenty of examples of young players that played on veteran teams. And the ones that didn't was because they weren't any good - not because a veteran was standing in their way. The idea that Bill punted drafts/purposely took busts because he didn't have room on the roster is idiotic.

 

[Ring 6]

This all started by someone stating rookies weren't on the roster because the team didn't have room which is far from the truth. The reality is, rookies or 2nd year players will see playing time if they are worthy of it. There are plenty of examples of young players that played on veteran teams. And the ones that didn't was because they weren't any good - not because a veteran was standing in their way. The idea that Bill punted drafts/purposely took busts because he didn't have room on the roster is idiotic.

I believe it started with the fact the patriots loaded up on veterans to make their run, which is true.
You will have to show me where someone said they didn’t want to draft because there was no room in the roster. That’s dumb. But the counter argument that veterans aren’t important to a contending team is disproven by naming a rookie or 2 who contributed is equally preposterous.

 

[Wozzy]

This all started by someone stating rookies weren't on the roster because the team didn't have room which is far from the truth.

No, it's because someone said the 2014-2019 Patriots teams were veteran heavy because they were in a ring chase, and someone argued against it saying it was because of poor drafting.

The reality is, rookies or 2nd year players will see playing time if they are worthy of it. There are plenty of examples of young players that played on veteran teams. And the ones that didn't was because they weren't any good - not because a veteran was standing in their way. The idea that Bill punted drafts/purposely took busts because he didn't have room on the roster is idiotic.

There are plenty examples of players the Pats drafted or brought in as UDFA's still playing good football around the NFL from those years.

A rookie RB had to beat Brandon Bolden out for that final roster spot by being great at special teams along with everything else... the chances of that happening were extremely slim. Backup safeties weren't making that roster unless they could be better at special teams than Nate Ebner. Rookies weren't making that team unless they were exceptional talents and great from the earliest part of camp.

I never suggested they purposely took busts... that's a lie.

 

[Wozzy]

What are you arguing? Did someone say you should have zero rookies?
The 2001 Patriots brought in as many veteran free agents as most any team ever has
They are literally the #1 example of bringing in veterans to win.

Agreed, the 2001 was a miracle by the scouting department in bringing old vet guys in, who most teams thought were washed up. Also guys who were perceived league wide as "role players" and undervalued elsewhere.

The combined age of that starting team was old, except for a few key positions people focus solely on. Starting right CB Otis Smith was 36, starting LB Bryan Cox was 33, starting LB Roman Phifer was 33, starting DT Anthony Pleasant 33, starting guard Mike Compton was 31, starting nickel CB Terrell Buckley was 30, starting DE Bobby Hamilton was 30... all free agents.

 

[50-yard-line]

No, it's because someone said the 2014-2019 Patriots teams were veteran heavy because they were in a ring chase, and someone argued against it saying it was because of poor drafting.

There are plenty examples of players the Pats drafted or brought in as UDFA's still playing good football around the NFL from those years.

A rookie RB had to beat Brandon Bolden out for that final roster spot by being great at special teams along with everything else... the chances of that happening were extremely slim. Backup safeties weren't making that roster unless they could be better at special teams than Nate Ebner. Rookies weren't making that team unless they were exceptional talents and great from the earliest part of camp.

I never suggested they purposely took busts... that's a lie.

Nor did I suggest that, but you know, it's easier to argue it they can just pretend people said whatever...

It goes back to having to admit the truth about WHY the Patirots were in a tough spot when 2019 went to the crapper instead of just pretending it was all Brady all those years and BB can't do anything without him.

That the Patriots are this far along in rebuilding already, and in this great cap shape going forward is pretty remarkable.

 

[Ring 6]

Agreed, the 2001 was a miracle by the scouting department in bringing old vet guys in, who most teams thought were washed up. Also guys who were perceived league wide as "role players" and undervalued elsewhere.

The combined age of that starting team was old, except for a few key positions people focus solely on. Starting right CB Otis Smith was 36, starting LB Bryan Cox was 33, starting LB Roman Phifer was 33, starting DT Anthony Pleasant 33, starting guard Mike Compton was 31, starting nickel CB Terrell Buckley was 30, starting DE Bobby Hamilton was 30... all free agents.

Antowain Smith, David Patten, Mike Vrabel…..

 

[Wozzy]

punt

 

[50-yard-line]

"The idea that Bill punted drafts/purposely took busts because he didn't have room on the roster is idiotic." - TheRainMaker, a few posts up ^

How can you say "I never said" that, when there ^ it is?

N'Keal Harry was a bust... he wasn't the reason things went tits up.

If they drafted AJ Brown instead, Tom still isn't staying and the 2020 team still isn't good enough.

I was AGREEING with you.

"I never suggested they purposely took busts..." Wozzy

"Nor did I suggest that, but you know, it's easier to argue it they can just pretend people said whatever..." me.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Wozzy]

I was AGREEING with you.

"I never suggested they purposely took busts..." Wozzy

"Nor did I suggest that, but you know, it's easier to argue it they can just pretend people said whatever..." me.
Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry, just woke up from an afternoon nap.