Too many draft whiffs

[BelichickFan]

That was his nickname at 'Zona, so I'm thinking this is hyperbole.

I'd be willing to bet he's been called that since he was, oh, about 6 years old or so.

 

[SanAngeloState]

True true and I am usually very positive in my posts about the Pats. It was just that everyone was rosy on the last two drafts. What if the Patriots had half the number of picks and only took Brace and Butler in 2009 and Cunningham last year? Yikes.

You have good points. It's the quantity of draft picks that helps the team...each pick hasn't been great...not even 50%. Butler is a bust, doesn't like contact. McKenzie is a 3rd round bust. Bussey-bust and Ohrn-bust are also busts.

The "gentle giant" Brace, that is too funny, kind of how I think of him. They have to really light a fire under this guy or he'll just fall asleep in his pile of cheeseburgers. Way too high of a pick, 2nd round.

 

[patchick]

Hmm. I was just looking at the recent All Pro announcement....

49 players were honored (not counting the silly 8-way pile up of safeties with 1 vote a piece).

Only 10 of those 49 are young guys drafted in the past 3 years.

3 of those 10 are Patriots.

Just a little perspective.

 

[MaineMan]

You have good points. It's the quantity of draft picks that helps the team...each pick hasn't been great...not even 50%. Butler is a bust, doesn't like contact. McKenzie is a 3rd round bust. Bussey-bust and Ohrn-bust are also busts.

The "gentle giant" Brace, that is too funny, kind of how I think of him. They have to really light a fire under this guy or he'll just fall asleep in his pile of cheeseburgers. Way too high of a pick, 2nd round.

Hmmm. It's difficult for me to accept calling a 3rd-rounder who sat out a year after blowing up his knee on essentially his first play in rookie camp a "bust." No real way to know what he might have become had he stayed healthy and there was no way to predict that he'd blow up his knee. I think there should be a Mulligan for that one.

In contrast, Wheatley was a walking (limping?) injury chart in college before he was ever drafted. That was a risky pick that blew up in us, so, no Mulligan there.

Also not sure I'm ready to call Ohrnberger a bust. Connolly had a similar path and eventually became a competent starter. Might be a bit early to tag Ohrnberger, eh?

Butler, OTOH, pretty obviously does . not . get it. Yeah, I'm ready to pull the plug on him.

 

[DaBruinz]

MaineMan - Did you really have to subject everyone to SanAngelo State's silliness??? I have him blocked because of how stupid he is when it comes to mid to late round picks. Especially when he does childish things like call then "Ohrn-bust".

Contrary to his spewings, Ohrnberger, Butler, McKenzie and Brace are not busts. As for Bussey, how can a late 5th round pick be considered a bust???

Contrary to you, Butler has improved significantly from the start of the season and I can easily see him in a 3 way contest with Arrington and Wilhite for the slot corner position.

As for Wheatley, he had ONE injury in college. His right wrist. It wasn't his fault that the titanium rod they put in was faulty and that it snapped on him while he was still in college, landing him out for a 2nd season.

 

[SanAngeloState]

Hmmm. It's difficult for me to accept calling a 3rd-rounder who sat out a year after blowing up his knee on essentially his first play in rookie camp a "bust." No real way to know what he might have become had he stayed healthy and there was no way to predict that he'd blow up his knee. I think there should be a Mulligan for that one.

In contrast, Wheatley was a walking (limping?) injury chart in college before he was ever drafted. That was a risky pick that blew up in us, so, no Mulligan there.

Also not sure I'm ready to call Ohrnberger a bust. Connolly had a similar path and eventually became a competent starter. Might be a bit early to tag Ohrnberger, eh?

Butler, OTOH, pretty obviously does . not . get it. Yeah, I'm ready to pull the plug on him.

Yeah, I forgot all about wheatley...that's a whole new level of bustitude right there.

Ohrnbust isn't necessarily a bust as of now, but it was a weird pick. An udfa guy in the 4th. Too small to really play guard. He was about 6'2" 280 and pretty maxed out. I saw him in week 17 he was up to about 295 but sporting a huge gut and almost unable to move. THe pick just defied common sense.

Brace I still have hopes for. Although he does seem to like the cheeseburgers too much.

I thought dartmouth fred's main points were very good, so kudos to him.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Contrary to you, Butler has improved significantly from the start of the season and I can easily see him in a 3 way contest with Arrington and Wilhite for the slot corner position.

As for Wheatley, he had ONE injury in college. His right wrist. It wasn't his fault that the titanium rod they put in was faulty and that it snapped on him while he was still in college, landing him out for a 2nd season.

As far as Butler everyone in the media noted how he improved but he still looked shaky to me. Hopefully he gets some ball skills and confidence in the offseason. BTW he was "Schooled" in college by Kenny Britt but I expect that a lot of guys were (and still) schooled by Britt. The slot seems like the natural place for Butler not on the edge messing around with the giants.

Wheatley was a desperation pick; after letting Assante go they tried and tried to find someone else without using a first but it did not get them much.

 

[SanAngeloState]

As far as Butler everyone in the media noted how he improved but he still looked shaky to me. Hopefully he gets some ball skills and confidence in the offseason. BTW he was "Schooled" in college by Kenny Britt but I expect that a lot of guys were (and still) schooled by Britt. The slot seems like the natural place for Butler not on the edge messing around with the giants.

Wheatley was a desperation pick; after letting Assante go they tried and tried to find someone else without using a first but it did not get them much.

Butler will always be terrible because he refuses to tackle and can't turn his head around to deflect a pass. There's no point in having him out there really...it looks like he MIGHT do something, but even witih great coverage the guy will just catch the ball and then butler will try to dance him down or out of bounds. Wheatley was one of the biggest bust picks ever. Spectacular. Guy couldn't play 5 minutes without going on IR.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

You have good points. It's the quantity of draft picks that helps the team...each pick hasn't been great...not even 50%. Butler is a bust, doesn't like contact. McKenzie is a 3rd round bust. Bussey-bust and Ohrn-bust are also busts.

The "gentle giant" Brace, that is too funny, kind of how I think of him. They have to really light a fire under this guy or he'll just fall asleep in his pile of cheeseburgers. Way too high of a pick, 2nd round.

I don't understand the criticism of less than 50% of our draft picks making it without even considering that EVERY team ends up under 50% overall. You might as well proclaim every baseball player garbage because they can't hit over .500.

It's even more bizarre that you're criticizing the team for having less than 50% of their draft picks make it while agreeing with Fred, who is criticizing a 2009 draft class that features 75% of the draft picks still with the team. It's like facts mean absolutely nothing to you two. In fact, if you look at the top half of the draft where prospects have a better chance of sticking, 6 of 7 guys from rounds 1-4 in our "awful" 2009 draft are on the team.

As for quantity vs. quality, I think we've done well in both areas. But even if it is just quantity, BB deserves some credit for understanding the riskiness of the draft and acquiring multiple extra picks. You seem to neglect that fact. But I'm sure when he works his magic and starts trading down, you'll be the first to cry about it.

Hmm. I was just looking at the recent All Pro announcement....

49 players were honored (not counting the silly 8-way pile up of safeties with 1 vote a piece).

Only 10 of those 49 are young guys drafted in the past 3 years.

3 of those 10 are Patriots.

Just a little perspective.

Yeah. But. We missed on Mike Wallace. Clearly BB is stupid.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I don't know how this thread fits in here on the Draft Forum for the upcoming 2011 drat.. I think I know of a place that it would be a perfect fit.

 

[SanAngeloState]

I don't understand the criticism of less than 50% of our draft picks making it without even considering that EVERY team ends up under 50% overall. You might as well proclaim every baseball player garbage because they can't hit over .500.

It's even more bizarre that you're criticizing the team for having less than 50% of their draft picks make it while agreeing with Fred, who is criticizing a 2009 draft class that features 75% of the draft picks still with the team. It's like facts mean absolutely nothing to you two. In fact, if you look at the top half of the draft where prospects have a better chance of sticking, 6 of 7 guys from rounds 1-4 in our "awful" 2009 draft are on the team.

As for quantity vs. quality, I think we've done well in both areas. But even if it is just quantity, BB deserves some credit for understanding the riskiness of the draft and acquiring multiple extra picks. You seem to neglect that fact. But I'm sure when he works his magic and starts trading down, you'll be the first to cry about it.



Yeah. But. We missed on Mike Wallace. Clearly BB is stupid.

NO, come on now. The thread was started from someone commenting on the fact that BB's last two drafts have been considered PURE GENIUS!

So I would EXPECT that they'd be better than average. They better be. They are considered to be up there with the best drafting classes of all time by some. That's the reference point for the criticism. He noted that many of the picks really aren't that great, ohrn-bust, butler-bust, bussey-bust, brace cheeseburger, wheatley-brittle-bust etc.

He does trade down and get quantity as opposed to risking it all by trading up. That's smart, IMO.

 

[MaineMan]

As far as Butler everyone in the media noted how he improved but he still looked shaky to me. Hopefully he gets some ball skills and confidence in the offseason. BTW he was "Schooled" in college by Kenny Britt but I expect that a lot of guys were (and still) schooled by Britt. The slot seems like the natural place for Butler not on the edge messing around with the giants.

Wheatley was a desperation pick; after letting Assante go they tried and tried to find someone else without using a first but it did not get them much.

Well, in fairness, we took Mayo in the first round in 08 with the SF pick. Because of the Spygate penalty, we didn't have another until after McKelvin, DRC, Talib, Mike Jenkins, Cason, Flowers, and Porter were already off the board. When NOT injured, Wheatley had been a beast in college and there really wasn't much clear quality after that for CBs (except, as it turns out, Terrell Thomas).

In 09, Malcolm Jenkins was off the board well before BB's first trade down (with BAL). Then, BB traded down again immediately after Vontae Davis went to MIA (the only other 1st round CB in 09). It's possible that BB was expecting Davis to fall to us, I suppose. Alphonso Smith went to Denver at #37 (and we all know how THAT turned out), and BB took Butler at #41. Again, there wasn't a lot of clear quality after Butler.

So, I don't think it was "avoiding" spending a 1st round pick on a CB as much as it was lack of opportunity

 

[convertedpatsfan]

NO, come on now. The thread was started from someone commenting on the fact that BB's last two drafts have been considered PURE GENIUS!

So I would EXPECT that they'd be better than average. They better be. They are considered to be up there with the best drafting classes of all time by some. That's the reference point for the criticism. He noted that many of the picks really aren't that great, ohrn-bust, butler-bust, bussey-bust, brace cheeseburger, wheatley-brittle-bust etc.

He does trade down and get quantity as opposed to risking it all by trading up. That's smart, IMO.

Title of thread: Too many draft whiffs

Yes, as you said, this sounds like "this thread started from someone commenting on the fact that BB's last two drafts have been considered PURE GENIUS!"

From the OP: There has been a lot of positive buzz about the Patriots last two drafts but if you look closer it seems that they were effective only because they had so many picks.

He's actually claiming that we've only been successful due to volume of picks. You wrote "So I would EXPECT that they'd be better than average." These two contradict each other (confession: I almost spelled that kontradict after spending so much time here), as he's proclaiming the draft was only effective because of volume, not by average.

Unless of course he meant we're above average compared to everyone else. But I doubt that since he ignores league norms and averages the rest of the way.

From the OP: It is great that the Patriots can trade down and pick up all these picks but what's the point if so many of these picks are whiffs?

Now he questions what the point is if we're just going to blow the picks. Again, you wrote, "They are considered to be up there with the best drafting classes of all time by some. That's the reference point for the criticism." But that's incorrect. The 2009 draft is not the reference point, but rather the actual SOURCE of the criticism.

I really don't want to spend too much time on a PS thread but I think you need to re-read the OP a bit more carefully.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I don't know how this thread fits in here on the Draft Forum for the upcoming 2011 drat.. I think I know of a place that it would be a perfect fit.

Thanks for nothing. I am bit offended here; there are plenty of other evals of the 2010 draft on the forum.

 

[blackglass3]

How's the "Ron Brace Disaster" thread not in here as well?