Tight end Shuffle: Hartsock, Maneri, Terrence Miller in; Jones, Watson, RB Houston out

[Ring 6]

Hooman would be a capable backup for a capable backup, a good third TE. They brought in guys who were unemployed halfway through training camp, fringe NFL players, not capable backups.

It would seem BB does not agree with you on Hooman.
3rd TEs are never beens or journeymen,

I'd say Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Denver, Kansas City, San Diego, Dallas, Philly, Detroit, Carolina, Seattle, GB, TB, Houston and probably New Orleans, Chicago, NYJ and St Louis have better depth at the position.

You are including teams that use 2 TEs as a base offense.
Some of your others:
Many are questionable.

Baltimore - Owen Daniels was hurt last year and released because he failed a physical.

Cincinnati is a 2 TE offense and there #1 back up is a guy we cut 5 years ago and has caught 34 passes in 5 years for 6 yards a catch.

Indy's TE depth has 16 career catches among 3 players.

KCs TE depth = zero NFL receptions, or games, combined.

SD #2 has caught 21 career passes in 2 years. Like most of the others they have #3 to speak of.

Dallas backup TEs have 29 career receptions.

Seattle's backup TEs have 20 career catches.

GB has a sucky starter backed up by guys with a combined 15 career catches.

Tampa doesn't have a TE on the roster that has even been a good #3.

Houston's backups have caught 19 passes in the NFL combined.

NO's backup is 34 year old Ben Watson who caught 19 passes and their #3 is a 2nd year player who caught 6 for 44 yards as a rookie.

Chicagos #2 either has not played football the last 2 years, has bounced around to 4 teams while catching 18 passes the last 3, or is Matt Mulligan depending on who wins the 'battle', this was a particularly bad miss by you.

The Jets #2 is Zach Sudfeld.



The Patriots depth at TE compares equally or favorably to most of the teams you listed.

In free agency this year, Owen Daniels (5 starts in 5 games in 2014, 96 of 100 career) signed to back up Dennis Pitta, Brandon Pettigrew (14 starts in 14 games, 68 of 71 career) signed to back up Eric Ebron and Ed ****son (14 starts in 16 games in 2014, 44 of 60 career) signed to back up Greg Olsen. Garret Graham (11 starts, 545 yards in 2014), John Carlson (52 career starts), Brandon Myers (30 starts the last two years) signed without necessarily being named a starter

Every sinlge one of those guys has a much better opportunity to play where they went than to be the best TE in the NFLs backup. You made my point here. Oh and Detroit runs a 2 TE offense.

It's not, it's like asking for someone to produce more than Hooman does if Gronk goes down again.

Look around the league. This time actually look at the rosters and depth charts. There are almost zero starting quality backup TEs and the ones who could compete for a job went to teams that do not have a player of Gronk's caliber. The player you are looking for either doesn't exist or would be stupid to come here. Expecting the team to have a starter in the wings in case of an injury is unrealistic.

 

[supafly]

I'm sorry, I think it's in the best interests of this young man to stay away from football

Especially if he has had experts look into his 10m dollar insurance policy and tell him that he will definitely get paid. It'd be a complete no-brainer.

The issue is that there may be some gray area to that policy (as is the norm for ANY insurance policy, let alone one that pays out 10 million bucks), since it may state that he gets paid if he cannot find any other work/offers--not if he cannot find any other offers to his liking.

I'm damn interested in whether or not he gets paid for some reason, just to see if he ends up being right. He is clearly under the impression that he has the right to collect on his 10m dollar policy, so I don't expect him to play football anymore.

 

[supafly]

I think the coaching staff considers Hooman a capable backup. I think they just brought in TEs with extensive NFL experience.

I would say that judging by the plans at TE (or lack thereof, depending on perspective), you are correct. Belichick view Hooman as a capable enough backup TE2.

I hear what you're saying about not being able to field all-pro talent at every position and it makes sense. That said, I can also understand those who are concerned about not having another TE behind Gronk who has the capacity to catch an actual pass.

I guess this is just one of those times where we have to trust Belichick and hope for good health, because lord knows I've complained enough all offseason about the depth at TE and it hasn't gotten us anywhere

 

[Mack Herron]

I think the coaching staff considers Hooman a capable backup. I think they just brought in TEs with extensive NFL experience.

I do not expect any of the recent signings to stick. I have resigned myself to the current crew, but don't think BB is putting all his eggs in the Hooman basket, as he is not adequate as a receiver. With Devlin taking snaps at TE and a better receiver than Hooman, the two-headed back-up (Do-man? HooDev?) might suffice until something better rolls around.

 

[Ring 6]

I would say that judging by the plans at TE (or lack thereof, depending on perspective), you are correct. Belichick view Hooman as a capable enough backup TE2.

I hear what you're saying about not being able to field all-pro talent at every position and it makes sense. That said, I can also understand those who are concerned about not having another TE behind Gronk who has the capacity to catch an actual pass.

I guess this is just one of those times where we have to trust Belichick and hope for good health, because lord knows I've complained enough all offseason about the depth at TE and it hasn't gotten us anywhere

I'm not saying anyone should be content but I'm being realistic. We are a one TE offense so you must look at it from that perspective which many are not. The level of quality of back up NFL TEs is piss poor and the few FAs out there who are serviceable simply aren't going to chose to come here when there are many better opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Ring 6]

I do not expect any of the recent signings to stick. I have resigned myself to the current crew, but don't think BB is putting all his eggs in the Hooman basket, as he is not adequate as a receiver. With Devlin taking snaps at TE and a better receiver than Hooman, the two-headed back-up (Do-man? HooDev?) might suffice until something better rolls around.

Develin isn't a TE
The recent signings were brought in to find a guy who can play TE in short yardage and block. One could easy fill that role. I actually think it could be Maneri because he could be an emergency OT allowing bb to keep one less OL on the 53 and place them On the ps

 

[Mack Herron]

Develin isn't a TE
The recent signings were brought in to find a guy who can play TE in short yardage and block. One could easy fill that role. I actually think it could be Maneri because he could be an emergency OT allowing bb to keep one less OL on the 53 and place them On the ps

Several reports state that Devlin has been lining up at TE as well as FB. Similar positions so not a big leap.

Patriots FB James Develin adding tight end to his resume | PFW Blog | Patriots.com

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

It would seem BB does not agree with you on Hooman.
3rd TEs are never beens or journeymen,



You are including teams that use 2 TEs as a base offense.
Some of your others:
Many are questionable.

Baltimore - Owen Daniels was hurt last year and released because he failed a physical.

Cincinnati is a 2 TE offense and there #1 back up is a guy we cut 5 years ago and has caught 34 passes in 5 years for 6 yards a catch.

Indy's TE depth has 16 career catches among 3 players.

KCs TE depth = zero NFL receptions, or games, combined.

SD #2 has caught 21 career passes in 2 years. Like most of the others they have #3 to speak of.

Dallas backup TEs have 29 career receptions.

Seattle's backup TEs have 20 career catches.

GB has a sucky starter backed up by guys with a combined 15 career catches.

Tampa doesn't have a TE on the roster that has even been a good #3.

Houston's backups have caught 19 passes in the NFL combined.

NO's backup is 34 year old Ben Watson who caught 19 passes and their #3 is a 2nd year player who caught 6 for 44 yards as a rookie.

Chicagos #2 either has not played football the last 2 years, has bounced around to 4 teams while catching 18 passes the last 3, or is Matt Mulligan depending on who wins the 'battle', this was a particularly bad miss by you.

The Jets #2 is Zach Sudfeld.



The Patriots depth at TE compares equally or favorably to most of the teams you listed.





Every sinlge one of those guys has a much better opportunity to play where they went than to be the best TE in the NFLs backup. You made my point here. Oh and Detroit runs a 2 TE offense.


Look around the league. This time actually look at the rosters and depth charts. There are almost zero starting quality backup TEs and the ones who could compete for a job went to teams that do not have a player of Gronk's caliber. The player you are looking for either doesn't exist or would be stupid to come here. Expecting the team to have a starter in the wings in case of an injury is unrealistic.

First off, there is more than one way to acquire depth at a position than sign a free agent, namely drafting and developing and trades. Hopefully a vet like Housler, Gresham or Marcedes Lewis gets cut or becomes available for trade.

Your argument that a player would be stupid to come here is nonsense. With Gronk's injury history and the Pats reliance on the position should make it an attractive place to be a backup.

Secondly, why are you dismissing teams that occasionally line up 2 TE's when the whole idea is to find a capable backup to Gronk. Discounting all the teams with two good TE's neatly fits your argument, doesn't it? If another team can find a way to acquire a 2nd quality TE than the Patriots should be able to also.

Third you said starter quality and I listed players who started for their teams last year who signed to back up other players this year. You of course went on to discount both the players who signed to be back ups and the players they're backing up. Again, doesn't fit your argument so you'll just dismiss it. Pitta and Greg Olsen are among the better TE's in this league, if you're going to limit the discussion to only TE's of Gronk's caliber, it's going to be a short discussion.

Baltimore signed Daniels and also drafted Crockett Gilmore in the 3rd round to go with Pitta
Carolina signed ****son to back up Olsen
Cincy has Eifert and Gresham
Indy has Allen and Fleener
KC has Fasano and Kelce - high draft pick compared to Gronk
SD has Gates and Ladarius Green
Dallas has Witten and Gavin Escobar
Seattle's backup Willson has very good measurables, had a more productive season as a rookie than Hooman did last year. Much higher ceiling.
GB has better depth, even if it doesn't have a clear starter Rodgers, Lyerla, Bostick and Quarless.
TB has Myers who has 1300 yards and 8TDs the last two years, Wright who had 571 yards last year and drafted ASJ.
Houston has Garrett Graham and Ryan Griffin who as a rookie also outproduced Hooman last year and drafted CJ Fiedorowicz.
I think I might prefer Watson at 34 over Hooman and I might even take any of Amaro, Cumberland and Sudfeld over him too.
****son for Carolina over Hooman
Kendricks for STL over Hooman
Vance McDonald for SF higher upside than Hooman
Any 2 of Nikklas , Carlson and Housler for Arizona
Any two of Pettigrew, Ebron and Fauria for Detroit
Zach Miller for Chicago looks much more athletic to me than Hooman
Celek/Ertz for Philly over Hooman

Even throwing out a few of my examples like Watson, Miller or McDonald and half the league has figured out a way to acquire a better 2nd TE than the Patriots. The rest may may not be better but probably aren't worse.

The argument that Hooman isn't a viable backup if Gronk goes down has already been proven. Going into another season and expecting different results doesn't make much sense to me.

And I never said have a starter waiting in the wings - those are your words. I stated they should have a more capable backup than Hooman who has proven to be not up to the task if Gronk is out. Gronk has proven to be injury prone, for as reliant as they are on him they should have invested more than they did - maybe they still will.

 

[Ivan]

Keller's knee must not have recovered sufficiently to hold up to the rigors of the NFL, unless he wants way too much $$ there is really no other reason for them not to sign him.

 

[Ring 6]

Several reports state that Devlin has been lining up at TE as well as FB. Similar positions so not a big leap.

Patriots FB James Develin adding tight end to his resume | PFW Blog | Patriots.com

I'm sure they would give him some reps there so he has a clue if he has to jump in in and emergency.

I disagree they are similar positions.

Now if you are talking about HBack, thats different because it really is a mix of a FB and TE.

 

[Kontradiction]

Keller's knee must not have recovered sufficiently to hold up to the rigors of the NFL, unless he wants way too much $$ there is really no other reason for them not to sign him.

Not surprising in the least. That was one of the more horrific knee injuries I've seen in some time. Shame too because the Pats could use him if he were healthy.

 

[Ring 6]

First off, there is more than one way to acquire depth at a position than sign a free agent, namely drafting and developing and trades. Hopefully a vet like Housler, Gresham or Marcedes Lewis gets cut or becomes available for trade.

Your argument that a player would be stupid to come here is nonsense. With Gronk's injury history and the Pats reliance on the position should make it an attractive place to be a backup.

The Patriots have only 'relied on the position' when they had Gronk and Hernandez.
NFL players are not patsfans poster who think every player who ever got injured is sure to be injured this year. NFL players don't go to a team where they won't play unless there is an injury when another team gives them a shot at winning the job. To imply otherwise is ludicrous.

Secondly, why are you dismissing teams that occasionally line up 2 TE's when the whole idea is to find a capable backup to Gronk. Discounting all the teams with two good TE's neatly fits your argument, doesn't it? If another team can find a way to acquire a 2nd quality TE than the Patriots should be able to also.

Because those teams have 2 TE offenses, which means those are 2 different positions. Would you compare DT equally between 3-4 and 4-3 teams? Of course not.

Third you said starter quality and I listed players who started for their teams last year who signed to back up other players this year. You of course went on to discount both the players who signed to be back ups and the players they're backing up. Again, doesn't fit your argument so you'll just dismiss it. Pitta and Greg Olsen are among the better TE's in this league, if you're going to limit the discussion to only TE's of Gronk's caliber, it's going to be a short discussion.

What did I say about Pitta (who sucks btw) or Olsen? I made no comments about them.

Baltimore signed Owens and also drafted Crockett Gilmore in the 3rd round

You mean Daneils I think, who played 5 games last year and was cut in March because he failed his physical. Damaged goods isn't depth. Players who have not played a snap in the NFL aren't depth

Cincy has Eifert and Gresham

Those are starter, not depth.

Indy has Allen and Fleener

I'd rather have Gronk and you.

KC has Fasano and Kelce - high draft pick compared to Gronk

3rd round picks who catch zero passes in their rookie season are not compared to Gronk

SD has Gates and Ladarius Green

Correct, not any better than we have.

Dallas has Witten and Gavin Escobar - 2nd rounder

Gavin Escobar caught 9 passes. You have to be joking with some of these.

Seattle's backup Willson has very good measurables, had a more productive season as a rookie than Hooman did last year. Much higher ceiling.

Now depth is measurables?

GB has better depth, even if it doesn't have a clear starter Rodgers, Lyerla, they're high on Bostick as well as Quarless.

None of those players has done anything good in the NFL. "They are high on" is a silly statement in the context of this discussion.

TB has Myers who has 1300 yards and 8TDs the last two years, Wright who had 571 yards last year and drafted ASJ.

I overlooked Myers, but we aren't talking about staters we are talking about depth.
Wright is a WR. Rookies who have not played a game don't prove depth.

Houston has Garrett Graham and Ryan Griffin who as a rookie also outproduced Hooman last year and drafted CJ Fiedorowicz.

You cannot seriously tell me that you judge 19-244-1 vs 12-136-1 last season as the entire discussion of who is a better NFL TE.

I think I might prefer Watson at 34 over Hooman and I might even take any of Amaro, Cumberland and Sudfeld over him too.

Thats silly.

****son for Carolina over Hooman
Kendricks for STL over Hooman

Agreed with these

Vance McDonald for SF higher upside than Hooman

we are talking about backup and 3rd string TE behind Gronk. Not upside.

Any 2 of Nikklas, Carlson and Housler for Arizona

This was not on your list.

Any two of Pettigrew, Ebron and Fauria for Detroit

They run a 2 TE offense.

Zach Miller for Chicago looks much more athletic to me than Hooman

Now you are clowning yourself. Miller has not caught a pass in 2 years, and a total of 4 in 3 years. Did he look really athletic on the sidelines?

Celek/Ertz for Philly over Hooman

Again, i'd rather have Gronk and you.

Even throwing out a few of my examples like Watson, Miller or McDonald and half the league has figured out a way to acquire a better 2nd TE than the Patriots. The rest may may not be better but probably aren't worse.

There may be 6-8 backup TEs (#2 in 1 TE offenses and #3 in 2 TE offenses) in the league that offer anything significantly greater than Hooman. My god you are counting a guy who hasn't caught a pass in 2 years to get to half (not to mention rookies and 2nd year players who sucked last year)
Hooman is not a great TE, but I'm confused how you think there is anything but blah talent at backup TE in the NFL. It seems you are expecting every TE drafted last year to be great and everyone the year before who did little to break out. Thats not realistic.

The argument that Hooman isn't a viable backup if Gronk goes down has already been proven. Going into another season and expecting different results doesn't make much sense to me.

It is what it is, a backup TE. You showed in that list that there just are not good backup TEs in the NFL.

And I never said have a starter waiting in the wings - those are your words. I stated they should have a more capable backup than Hooman who has proven to be not up to the task if Gronk is out. Gronk has proven to be injury prone, for as reliant as they are on him they should have invested more than they did - maybe they still will.

This is where you go off the tracks.
You don't have Gronk and expect to put someone in his place to do the same things if he is injured.
If he is injured, we rely more heavily on WRs.
The alternative is to pretend a starting caliber TE (and yes that IS what you are implying) will come here to sit on the bench and play 5 snaps a game rooting for Gronk to get hurt, or that we spend a high draft pick on a guy who won't see the field more than that unless Gronk is injured.
The backup to Gronk should be a cheap player, because he isn't needed.
I realize you want to base everything on building a team that has stud replacements sitting around if players get injured but that is not realistic in a capped league.

 

[Joker]

Hartsock is a quintessential blocking TE and has made a career out of it. Maneri is an OL primarily but can also fill in as a blocking TE. Seems pretty obvious what BB is looking at here. Perhaps Hooman is a little more dinged up than anyone realizes.

 

[PatsFan2]

Great post ArmchairQB...looking at that list the N.E. Patriots TE situation is a Feast with Gronk and Famine with our current back-ups. Hopefully some Team part ways with one those guys because any of them would be a pefect fit here. We are talking about guys who could factor in our passing game.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I wouldn't know how to begin to respond to your answers in the way it's structured so I'll just say that in the event of a Gronk injury, the Pats will not be properly prepared. The Patriots offense without Gronk is a shell of itself. Hooman is a fringe NFL player, he is not a capable backup IMO, which is all I suggested the Pats acquire. You think that's a near impossibility, yet the Patriots somehow still figured out a way to add depth at QB and RB even though they had established players.

 

[Bruins29]

I wouldn't know how to begin to respond to your answers in the way it's structured so I'll just say that in the event of a Gronk injury, the Pats will not be properly prepared. The Patriots offense without Gronk is a shell of itself. Hooman is a fringe NFL player, he is not a capable backup IMO, which is all I suggested the Pats acquire. You think that's a near impossibility, yet the Patriots somehow still figured out a way to add depth at QB and RB even though they had established players.

I dont think its as bad as you are making it out. Pats had the 3rd best O last year. Gronk only played in 7 games , granted he had a few awesome games. So, given the Pats finished 3rd with Hooman and Mulligan (who isnt better than Hooman) for over half of the year AND a hurt Amendola (whole year), with 3 rookie WR (the whole year), and Vareen also out for half the season that is not too shabby.

With the experience and healthy Vareen, DA, and Gronk + much more experience for the rooks and Lafell, I dont see how the Pats are going to sink or swim according to how our "backup" TE plays.

I think you are making a whole lot out of nothing. Would it be great to have a Keller as a number two? Sure, but he is hurt and he wouldnt even have been available under this scenario unless he was hurt. DJ would be a adequate 3rd TE if they need him. They may just go with two TE which would make since if they want to carry 7WR

Lets assume Gronk will be healthy for once.

Also, the season dosent start for 3 weeks. Lets assume that their will be player movement. Plus who know who will be cut from other teams or who they want to sign after week 1.

 

[Ring 6]

I wouldn't know how to begin to respond to your answers in the way it's structured so I'll just say that in the event of a Gronk injury, the Pats will not be properly prepared. The Patriots offense without Gronk is a shell of itself. Hooman is a fringe NFL player, he is not a capable backup IMO, which is all I suggested the Pats acquire. You think that's a near impossibility, yet the Patriots somehow still figured out a way to add depth at QB and RB even though they had established players.

They will be as prepared as most other teams would be, that is the point.
They added depth at QB because the starter is 37 and the backup is in his last contract year, but that isn't doing anything for 2014.
They added a 4th round RB because they lose last years starter.
Yes they could have used a draft pick to find a player to sit on the bench hoping Gronk gets injured. I'm happier with what they did.
There isn't a backup TE that you have mentioned that would not be a significant dropoff from Gronk.

It is similar to the QB position. If Brady goes out, we are screwed. What would you do about that? Do you really think we could have lured a starter here in Free Agency? Should we have traded up in the first round to get the top QB?
We had what looks to be an average backup at both spots. I don't know how we reasonably could have done much better.

 

[Ring 6]

I dont think its as bad as you are making it out. Pats had the 3rd best O last year. Gronk only played in 7 games and it was not like the games he did play he put up all world numbers, granted he had a few awesome games. So, given the Pats finished 3rd with Hooman and Mulligan (who isnt better than Hooman) for over half of the year AND a hurt Amendola (whole year), with 3 rookie WR (the whole year), and Vareen also out for half the season that is not too shabby.

With the experience and healthy Vareen, DA, and Gronk + much more experience for the rooks and Lafell, I dont see how the Pats are going to sink or swim according to how our "backup" TE plays.

I think you are making a whole lot out of nothing. Would it be great to have a Keller as a number two? Sure, but he is hurt and he wouldnt even have been available under this scenario unless he was hurt. DJ would be a adequate 3rd TE if they need him. They may just go with two TE which would make since if they want to carry 7WR

Lets assume Gronk will be healthy for once.

Not to mention that Keller wouldn't even be seeing the field much because we are a 1 TE offense now.
If we had Keller and Hooman, Hooman would probably get more snaps because Keller is an atrocious blocker and the only time we will use 2 TEs is to block.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I dont think its as bad as you are making it out. Pats had the 3rd best O last year. Gronk only played in 7 games and it was not like the games he did play he put up all world numbers, granted he had a few awesome games. So, given the Pats finished 3rd with Hooman and Mulligan (who isnt better than Hooman) for over half of the year AND a hurt Amendola (whole year), with 3 rookie WR (the whole year), and Vareen also out for half the season that is not too shabby.

With the experience and healthy Vareen, DA, and Gronk + much more experience for the rooks and Lafell, I dont see how the Pats are going to sink or swim according to how our "backup" TE plays.

I think you are making a whole lot out of nothing. Would it be great to have a Keller as a number two? Sure, but he is hurt and he wouldnt even have been available under this scenario unless he was hurt. DJ would be a adequate 3rd TE if they need him. They may just go with two TE which would make since if they want to carry 7WR

Lets assume Gronk will be healthy for once.

I am assuming Gronk will be healthy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare in case he isn't.

Gronk did put up all world numbers, he had 592 yards in 6 1/2 games, that would work out to about 1400 yards over a full season. Gronk averaged roughly 6 catches for 90 yards in weeks 7-12. Hooman, as Gronks replacement in weeks 14,15 and 16 had 2 catches for 22 yards - averaging less than 1 catch and 7 yards per game.

 

[Bruins29]

I am assuming Gronk will be healthy but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare in case he isn't.

Gronk did put up all world numbers, he had 592 yards in 6 1/2 games, that would work out to about 1400 yards over a full season. Gronk averaged roughly 6 catches for 90 yards in weeks 7-12. Hooman, as Gronks replacement in weeks 14,15 and 16 had 2 catches for 22 yards - averaging less than 1 catch and 7 yards per game.

You can contradict me if you want but I did change my wording on Gronks performance. Regardless, of his difference making abilities I think we are ok at backup TE. Could it be better? Sure...but again we have 3 weeks until opening day. Lots can happen. You could also look at Edelman's and Amendola's injury histories and do the same thing BTW.

I am not playing that game. You can if you want.