The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[The Dynasty]

Again flawed logic. If the defense isnt put in critical situaitons then it played well enough to not be in them.
Or are you now saying the statistics you are so concerned about were built against a defense coasting with a lead?

Kind of helps when your offense puts up the most points in the league. You are not put in critical situations as much and with such big leads you can relax. Also, opposing teams are trying to make plays trying to play catch up and force throws, this is another part of the reason of the INTs. The Pats do deserve some credit for making INTs in big spots like the Colts game though, I will give them that. I still say it is risky to depend on a young team to cause turnovers in the playoffs.

Again "I say so" isnt good proof. I could counter this with Belichick teams are better prepared for the playoffs than any other so, the play will improve compared to opponents in the post-season. You also ignore the fact that Patriots young players have done very well in the post season.

Belichick can do all the preparing and coaching he wants, it helps, but it all comes down to execution and the players are the ones doing that. The Pats have young players do well in the playoffs but there have been one or two of them on each team and have been surrounded by veterans, the younger guys were in the minority. This year it is the opposite, the veterans are surrounded by young guys. It is tough to count on every single young player to play well in the postseason.

You keep harping on the 'flaw' that the Patriots have of forcing a lot of turnovers will make it risky for them to win in the playoffs. I am saying the flaws the other teams that arent as good as the Patriots have are even more risky to win in the playoffs.
If you are saying the Patriots will shrink in the post-season, what team do you think has all the qualities to rise up that the Patriots are lacking?

Getting home field is extremely key for the Pats with such a young team. Having to travel to SD or Indy in the playoffs would not go well for this team. You never know what can happen in the playoffs, Big Ben and the Steelers could give the Pats troubles, the Ravens proved last year that they could as well.

 

[RayClay]

Your whole argument is based upon one game where without Sanders' INT the Pats were looking at blowing a 17 point 4th quarter lead.

So, in that game, you would say play Manning tighter and hope he doesn't throw touchdown passes?

I have made tons of arguments, each game is a different game plan.

The Jets, for instance. they didn't all of a sudden coincidentally find out how to stop a team on 3rd down, they played the jets differently because they are a running team and Sanchez is not manning.

The jets passing game has always been physical receivers with YAC.

I didn't invent peyton Manning, just so I could make an argument about how we succesfully played him, he's a real person, probably the top passer in football.

The Colts have beaten us 5 of the past 6 times when we had all those "veterans", yet you seem to think it's just easy as pie, so we should just dare Manning to throw touchdown passes?

Not good enough to win, we need to shave off some yards and 3rd downs.

 

[The Dynasty]

You talk like that is worse than losing.
If that pass had been a TD the Patriots would still currently be the #1 seed.
But guess what. That was a STOP. I guess if they had stopped the 4th down play a little earlier the win would mean more to you? I still dont get this idea that turnovers are a wimpy way to stop a team.
Do you think if it was a playoff game Sanders chokes or Manning doesnt?

In the playoffs I would think that Manning would not throw that pick and the Colts atleast kick a FG and force OT. The win would have meant a lot more if the Pats didnt allow the Colts to march down the field twice in less than 3 minutes each and score. The Pats did not play a full 60 minutes of football in that game, it would have meant a lot more to me.

 

[Ring 6]

Kind of helps when your offense puts up the most points in the league. You are not put in critical situations as much and with such big leads you can relax. Also, opposing teams are trying to make plays trying to play catch up and force throws, this is another part of the reason of the INTs. The Pats do deserve some credit for making INTs in big spots like the Colts game though, I will give them that. I still say it is risky to depend on a young team to cause turnovers in the playoffs.

So wait. Those factors don't matter when you cite the yardage statistics and 3rd down conversions that occured when the PAtriots had big leads, but now they do matter when they serve your purpose.
Your argument is failing miserably in integrity.

Belichick can do all the preparing and coaching he wants, it helps, but it all comes down to execution and the players are the ones doing that. The Pats have young players do well in the playoffs but there have been one or two of them on each team and have been surrounded by veterans, the younger guys were in the minority. This year it is the opposite, the veterans are surrounded by young guys. It is tough to count on every single young player to play well in the postseason.

So your unsubstantiated opinion that young players cant play in the playoffs wins out over my substantiated one that young Patriots do well, because there are a lot of young players? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

Getting home field is extremely key for the Pats with such a young team. Having to travel to SD or Indy in the playoffs would not go well for this team.

Why? Brady will tear those teams apart indoors or in Cali weather.

You never know what can happen in the playoffs, Big Ben and the Steelers could give the Pats troubles, the Ravens proved last year that they could as well.

Isnt the Steelers inexperienced and awful OL a risky thing to rely on in a playoff game?
Arent the Ravens weak corners, and young QB who has never played well in big games a risky thing to rely on?
I would much rather take our defense that HASNT FAILED YET over that than to quake in fear because of meaningless yardage stats.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

It actually makes sense that there are less turnovers in the playoffs than regular season. Teams that consistently turnover the ball, rarely make it to the playoffs. Teams that are outstanding at maintaining ball control often do make the playoffs.

But that doesn't mean a ball hawking defense is a bad playoff defense.

 

[Ring 6]

In the playoffs I would think that Manning would not throw that pick and the Colts atleast kick a FG and force OT. The win would have meant a lot more if the Pats didnt allow the Colts to march down the field twice in less than 3 minutes each and score. The Pats did not play a full 60 minutes of football in that game, it would have meant a lot more to me.

Wow. So we are just a really lucky team because we play against stupid teams that make bad decisions and when the playoffs come around they will become smart and kick our @sses?
They did play 60 minutes. The Int came with less than a minute left. I think they were still playing.
Sorry they let up all those yards though because I know how important that is to yuo.

 

[Ring 6]

It actually makes sense that there are less turnovers in the playoffs than regular season. Teams that consistently turnover the ball, rarely make it to the playoffs. Teams that are outstanding at maintaining ball control often do make the playoffs.

But that doesn't mean a ball hawking defense is a bad playoff defense.

Yes and no, because it goes the other way too. Teams that force turnovers are in the playoffs and teams that dont are home.

 

[RayClay]

In the playoffs I would think that Manning would not throw that pick and the Colts atleast kick a FG and force OT. The win would have meant a lot more if the Pats didnt allow the Colts to march down the field twice in less than 3 minutes each and score. The Pats did not play a full 60 minutes of football in that game, it would have meant a lot more to me.

So now you're inventing game end scenarios out of whole cloth?

I notice when reality is presented, you have no response. If it was so easy to prevent touchdown passes, yards and 3rd down conversions from the Colts, why did our "veteran" teams lose 5 of the last 6 games to them?

Some wins mean more than others in the regular season? you don't seem to think wins over the Colts, Pitt, Ravens and Jets mean much, so please explain to me about the wins that mean more.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Yes and no, because it goes the other way too. Teams that force turnovers are in the playoffs and teams that dont are home.

I tend to think most turnovers are not because the defense forced them...but because the offense did something stupid.

A good defense can encourage turnovers and get more than average, but ultimately it depends on the offense doing something stupid (as opposed to the defense doing something brilliant.) Stupid offenses don't make the playoffs.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You're talking about Rob Parker on espn this morning? For those that missed it Parker said the Pats were not going to the Super Bowl because they have 'the worst defense in the league, bar none', and that 'the numbers don't lie'. Why some people are still fixated on one and only one stat - yardage - is beyond me. If the entire season hasn't proven that the numbers do indeed lie, then last night's game should have caused Parker to reassess his position.

Perhaps Parker was pandering to his audience; he writes for espn New York.

I don't think it's so much numbers lie as people lying and using irrelevant numbers to support wrong opinions. Patriots' opponents have significantly outgained them in yardage this season, but the Patriots are 10-2 in those games anyways. Yardage does not strongly correlate to victory, period.

If I said that the Patriots are the worst team in the league because they don't get many sacks, you wouldn't say that numbers lie: you'd say that I lack even a basic understanding of which numbers matter. Same is true for this parker guy. If he's using yardage to support his "Patriots' defense is the worst in the league" argument, then he's just dumb.

 

[ausbacker]

I have better things to do than to go back in the entire history of the NFL playoffs to prove to you that it happens. Judging by your response I think you are aware that it does happen.

Well it's clear you're full of hot air on this matter and can't be bothered offering relevant research to support your argument. Given that qualification I can unreservedly claim that your opinion has been debunked and I give your opinion on defensive play no credence whatsoever.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I tend to think most turnovers are not because the defense forced them...but because the offense did something stupid.

A good defense can encourage turnovers and get more than average, but ultimately it depends on the offense doing something stupid (as opposed to the defense doing something brilliant.) Stupid offenses don't make the playoffs.

I think you're both onto something, but this Jets team went to the AFCCG last year. Carson Palmer and Joe Flacco were playoff QBs. The Vikings' SB hopes ended with a Favre interception, and the Colts' ended with a Manning pick-six. The previous SB swung on a 90-something yard return by James Harrison at the end of the first half. If the Cardinals score going into halftime instead, I think they win it all. Turnovers happen quite a bit in playoff football, and they're usually what swing games. That's why it bodes so well for the Pats that they're one of the top teams in the NFL in takeaway/giveaway.

 

[BradyFTW!]

In the playoffs I would think that Manning would not throw that pick and the Colts atleast kick a FG and force OT. The win would have meant a lot more if the Pats didnt allow the Colts to march down the field twice in less than 3 minutes each and score. The Pats did not play a full 60 minutes of football in that game, it would have meant a lot more to me.

Yeah, you're totally right. Manning would never throw a game-ending INT in a playoff game

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

I think you're both onto something, but this Jets team went to the AFCCG last year. Carson Palmer and Joe Flacco were playoff QBs. The Vikings' SB hopes ended with a Favre interception, and the Colts' ended with a Manning pick-six. The previous SB swung on a 90-something yard return by James Harrison at the end of the first half. If the Cardinals score going into halftime instead, I think they win it all. Turnovers happen quite a bit in playoff football, and they're usually what swing games. That's why it bodes so well for the Pats that they're one of the top teams in the NFL in takeaway/giveaway.

Turnover do happen. And a turnover differential can swing a game.

But I think in the playoffs you are more likely to see a 2 turnover differential because team A turned over the ball twice and team B turned over the ball 0 times with team B winning. But in the regular season you might see team A turning over the ball 4 times and team B turning over the ball twice with team B winning.

Turnover differentials still exist in the playoffs...but I think the sum total is lower. That makes getting them all that much more important AND good ball protection all that more important.

 

[The Dynasty]

Wow. So we are just a really lucky team because we play against stupid teams that make bad decisions and when the playoffs come around they will become smart and kick our @sses?
They did play 60 minutes. The Int came with less than a minute left. I think they were still playing.
Sorry they let up all those yards though because I know how important that is to yuo.

Belichick even said it himself that they didnt play a full 60 minutes that week.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Turnover do happen. And a turnover differential can swing a game.

But I think in the playoffs you are more likely to see a 2 turnover differential because team A turned over the ball twice and team B turned over the ball 0 times with team B winning. But in the regular season you might see team A turning over the ball 4 times and team B turning over the ball twice with team B winning.

Turnover differentials still exist in the playoffs...but I think the sum total is lower. That makes getting them all that much more important AND good ball protection all that more important.

I agree, which makes it all the better that a) the defense forces turnovers and b) the offense doesn't turn the ball over. The situation that you just described as being likely in the playoffs is exactly how the Pats operate.

 

[The Dynasty]

Yeah, you're totally right. Manning would never throw a game-ending INT in a playoff game

What is more likely? A SB winner and one of the best QBs ever to play the game leading his team to a game winning TD, or a young defense with no playoff experience picking him off?

 

[RayClay]

What is more likely? A SB winner and one of the best QBs ever to play the game leading his team to a game winning TD, or a young defense with no playoff experience picking him off?

It depends. If the defense let's his receivers get behind them he probably goes for about 6-7 TDs, which is apparently the safe way to play defense, according to you.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2005110700/2005/REG9/colts@patriots/analyze/box-score#tab:watch

They didn't have a third down until our 1 yard line here the first drive.

 

[ausbacker]

What is more likely? A SB winner and one of the best QBs ever to play the game leading his team to a game winning TD, or a young defense with no playoff experience picking him off?

I'd probably say James Sanders picking him off but that's just me.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

What is more likely? A SB winner and one of the best QBs ever to play the game leading his team to a game winning TD, or a young defense with no playoff experience picking him off?

Are we talking about Manning? He is more likely to throw an int in playoffs than the regular season. They talk about a "Rookie wall". Manning runs into a wall after 16 games. Manning is one of the best regular season QBs in the league, but I think I would rather have Chad Henne as my QB in the playoffs.

The young defense is getting better and better each week. Three fourth thru the season they just had their best game ever. Add in four more weeks of experience with two of them being the Bears and Packers and they will be ready to shut down and int anybody in the league.