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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by PatsandTrojans55, Apr 15, 2008.

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  1. PatsandTrojans55

    PatsandTrojans55 Rookie

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    1. Interest in Dorsey and Ellis is very real. Also, have interest in Trevor Laws as maybe a late 2nd early 3rd round pick. They like his motor and the way he gains leverage with his size.

    2. They still feel the same about Chris Long. He's a great kid with good but not overwhelmingly great talent. They like Gholston ALOT more as a prospect for OLB. In fact Long could fall to 8 or 9 depending on 3 teams. Not named New England, Miami and St. Louis.

    3. They won't trade up in this draft and if Gholston falls they will consider, if Chris Long falls they still want to trade down. Only 1 player worth a trade up and he will be (Long) gone.

    4. They are doing extra recon on O-Lineman and that is a VERY strong possibility in the 1st round. Because the depth and therefore value isn't as great as LB or CB.

    5. They were very impressed with Keith Rivers visit, specifically his time spent in the film room and the terms "instincts and field savvy" came up.

    6. On corners, There are 2 corners OFF the draft board right now. 1. They feel doesn't love the game enough to focus and dedicate himself to football although he's a talent. 2. Is from a small college and they don't like his football sense. The corner position is a good class and they might wait for early 3rd to address the position. (So don't say you weren't warned). They like their depth and flexibility at the moment. They also have another option there after the draft.

    7. They will draft a RB in this draft that will replace Sammy Morris eventually. They feel Maroney is ready for more receiving opportunities and will improve in blitz pick-ups to play more 3rd downs going forward.

    8. On WR they like a number of them but they want a versatile WR and will address this as well.

    9. On Seward, they are still debating on an offer and the snag is whether they like the value of Seward for a 5th or do they feel the prospect will be there in the draft. In other words they want to keep the best possible flexability available going into the draft while improving depth. I think they will give him an offer and address LB in the draft on Day 2. (Don't be surprised if they don't take a LBer until Late Day 2 anyway. As in Late 3rd or later).

    10. The team feels they don't have any glaring weaknesses going into the draft and they really like some of their depth and flexiblilty right now. I'm hearing "Don't be surprised" thrown around alot.

    I don't post my knowledge of the team for self gratification. I post it for true Patriots Fans who want to know some inside information on their beloved team.

    Pats fans this is a wonderful time and sit back and enjoy it. But, I want to warn you to not be surprised!! They are the best in the business for a reason.

    PT55
  2. BRiZ

    BRiZ Rookie

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    you're a delusional neanderthal.
  3. A.C Vegas

    A.C Vegas Rookie

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    your just saying that cause he said your binky is off the board
  4. miDeuce

    miDeuce Rookie

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    Why do I get the feeling this is entirely based on this:

  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Well who knows what 55 really knows but . . . I like it when people post this stuff, just in case.

    I really don't want Ellis though. I trust Bill and Scott and understand the Planet Theory but I really want a trade down into what seems like the value/need combination fit of this draft which, for us, seems to be in the 12-20 range.
  6. miDeuce

    miDeuce Rookie

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    I concur, take it with a grain of salt but interesting to read. I get the feeling if they get stuck with the 7th overall pick they're going to take someone that everyone will say they reached on or didn't necesaarily have a huge need for (OL/DL). I just don't see Ellis being a good fit for the 3-4, he seems prototypical 4-3.
  7. UMDshawn

    UMDshawn Rookie

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    Who knows if this is truly inside info...but a lot of what is being said logically makes sense. Both Dorsey and Ellis are good talents who could represent the best mix of need/BPA. We do not really need a DL this year, but neither Wilfork or Warren played much in their rookie years, and that could happen again if we drafted either one of these guys. I might be wrong, but I think Seymour, Wilfork, and Green are all Free Agents in 09'...

    I also agree with the CB argument. This is a deep class, and they have a history drafting DB later in the draft. Who is to say that in our system Antoine Cason, Charles Godfrey, or Patrick Lee wouldn't be as productive as McKelvin or DRC.

    In the end, I believe that New Orleans will be interested in jumping in front of Cincinnati, and we will end up picking at 10. In that case, Keith Rivers could very easilly be the pick.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  8. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    Wow, interesting if true. Keep it up 55. Even if you're telling tales, they're the tales I want to hear!

    My guess is the cbs off the baord would be Talib and Jenkins, if the story is true.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  9. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The Pats don't draft based on Best Player available. The draft based on best VALUE available.

    Neither Dorsey NOR Ellis have the size required to be a DE in the Pats system and they are both too small for the NT position.

    Also, Wilfork, Seymour and Green are signed THROUGH the 2009 season. Meaning the Pats have 2 more years with all 3 of them. Going into 2010, they have some 76 million in cap space currently. Yes, that will go down some based on 2008 and 2009, but my bet is that they still have over 40 million when 2010 comes around. And that is all if they owners and players have reached an agreement on a new CBA and the owners haven't taken their option to make 2010 an uncapped year.

    The CB spiel by PT55 is just regurgitated from what many people have said on this board. Myself included.
  10. Warren94

    Warren94 Rookie

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    Oh Brother...

    Dorsey is a stud. Is He a boom or bust player maybe. Ellis can play either DT or DE in our system.

    Goff would be a solid addition in the third round
  11. UMDshawn

    UMDshawn Rookie

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    By "BPA", I meant the guy at the top of their draft board, not necessarily the best pro prospect. I also meant that the three DL's would be free agents after 09', but the way I wrote it makes it look like I meant before 09'. Sorry for the confusion...

    I agree that both Dorsey and Ellis are undersized for a 3-4 system, and this has been said many times before. However, just because the team runs a 3-4 now, doesn't necessarily mean they will 2-3 years from now. More teams are switching to a 3-4, and because of this the 3-4 talents are going to be absorbed in both the draft and free agent market. If the team doesn't have the talent to run an effective 3-4, but has an opportunity to fill out their roster with excellent players for a 4-3, why should they stay commited to a 3-4? Its a very simple, yet often overlooked concept of management to avoid getting stubbornly devoted to one system of operating, because the landscape is always changing...this holds true in business and in sports.

    To sum everything up, I'm not completely agreeing or disagreeing with what anyone is saying, and I'm not arguing that they should convert to a 4-3. I'm just saying that nothing is certain right now, and since we are all really just speculating, we should be open to all arguments.
  12. miDeuce

    miDeuce Rookie

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    Why do you think he can play both? When I look at size alone Ellis (6' 1", 305) doesn't compare to Seymour (6' 6", 310) or Warren (6' 5, 300) or Green (6' 5", 300). He's closer to Wilfork (6' 2", 325) but still seems light for NT. Ellis seems to my eyes like a Warren Sapp type 4-3 DT and not really a two gap 3-4 DL or DE. Maybe I'm missing something, please explain if I am...
  13. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    You could post this every year.
  14. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    I don't agree with the bolded above. While the Pats are known for reaching, that is for picks at the end of the first, or in the second or third. Big difference between the pay of where you draft a guy vs. where you "should" have drafted him in those spots of the draft.

    With the #7 pick you are shelling our $20MM in guarantees so you are going to want to make sure it is an impact player who is worth it.

    So I just don't see them reaching for a guy they know they would be able to get in the mid-teens but reach for him because they can't trade down.

    My guess is they have trade down targets, and then a different set of guys who are "worth #7 money" that they will draft if they can't trade down.

    For this reason it wouldn't surprise me if they grabbed McFadden if he is there and they can't trade down.
  15. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    To be completely honest, almost everything he said was a somewhat regurgitated version of what members of this forum have previously said.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  16. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Where do people get this BS that more teams are switching to the 3-4. They aren't. In fact, teams who've switched are switching back to the 4-3.

    Houston already switched back to the 4-3. San Fran ran more 4-3 than 3-4 last year.

    The 3-4 teams are the Pats, Jets, Cowboys, Chargers and Steelers. Miami is rumored to be switching, but they have more players suited to the 4-3 than the 3-4.

    And, unless BB is gone, he's not switching from the 3-4. For many reasons. The only reason he ran the 4-3 in his 1st 3 years here is because the Pats didn't have a NT. Once they got it (First Washington, then Traylor and now Wilfork) they've stayed with it.
  17. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I agree. I think Ellis is a solid prospect, just not for this team. Let's hope that if Gholston doesn't make it to #7, that a player that someone else really wants does. That way we can trade down. I'd like to see them take a shot at Rivers, but not at #7.
  18. UMDshawn

    UMDshawn Rookie

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    You are right, once the team acquired players who were versatile and capable enough to run the 3-4, they did and have ever since. But considering the lack of depth (as well as years left to play) of the entire linebacking crew, and the impending free agency of most of their defensive line, it might be wise to adjust the system so that it can best utilize the available talent. I don't know how accurate the Dorsey/Sapp comparison is, but lets just say for the sake of argument that Warren Sapp is coming out of the draft this year...do you think the Pats would not take him just because they run a 3-4 defense now and he isn't a 3-4 NT? If the Pats really think that Dorsey and Ellis are "special players", then they should take one given the amount of uncertainty surrounding personel after two years. Once again, I'm not arguing for a change to 4-3, I'm just trying to find a logical reason for why they might actually draft one of these guys.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2008
  19. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    I still think this whole sudden DL craze is a smoke screen. You do realize this is all BS from GMs this month, right? Everything you hear isn't what it is, in other words they're throwing you all off. I don't mean to hate on ya, but I can't believe the Pats would leak this info and if they do you can call me out on that.
  20. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    First of all, take a few steps back. You make a TON of assumptions.

    1) Yes, I wouldn't touch Dorsey with a 10 ft pole because he doesn't fit the Pats scheme. You don't bring in players who are going to sit on the bench because you MIGHT lose some players to free agency in 2 years.

    2) What you offer up isn't logical. If you are going to make the change to a 4-3, you don't bring in Hobson and you don't retain Bruschi. You make the trade for Vilma since he's, arguably, amongst the best 4-3 MLBs in the league. And, while the Pats could play a heavy 4-3 now, they would need, immediately, 1 OLB since Vrabel is a 4-3 DE and not a 4-3 OLB. Thomas can fit the 4-3 DE or OLB because of his agility.

    3) There has been a "lack of depth" at LB for about 6 years now. During that time, the Pats did win 2 SBs. Yes, they've missed out on a few, but, there's a good chance that Hobson can move inside since he's already familiar with the 3-4 2 GAP system. You bring him in with Seau and Bruschi and you can develop another, younger, ILB behind them who would be able to start next year. Someone like a Goff or Mayo.

    4) The Pats, in this draft alone, could add 2 quality LBs (one at OLB and one at ILB) and then continue to add via free agency the way they've done and they'd be fine. Again, 40+ million goes a long way. As does continuing to win.

    5) The Pats have 6 D-linemen currently. Green, Warren, Wilfork, Seymour, Smith and Wright. Wright is a UFA next season. Green, Wilfork and Seyour in 2 seasons. Do you really think that the Pats are going to let them ALL walk? You aren't that daft, are you?
  21. UMDshawn

    UMDshawn Rookie

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    Oh there is definitely a lot of BS being thrown about right now, and the media loves to take it and run with it because they have as much info and insight as anyone here. Did anyone see the Charger's GM's quote on espn tonight about how there isn't an honest man in the NFL during this month? I thought it was funny.
  22. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    What he said. The Ellis stuff is a fairly transparent ploy to increase his value so that either (1) someone above the Pats will jump on him, allowing the real target to fall; or (2) someone will want to trade up with the Pats to grab him.
  23. UMDshawn

    UMDshawn Rookie

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    The last line of my post said that I'm just trying to find a logical reason why they might draft one of either Dorsey or Ellis. No I don't think all of them are going to walk. Yes I agree they could draft talented linebackers this year, and next year. And yes, very clearly this team likes to run the 3-4 and is commited to doing so right now. All of these things are very clear! All I was doing was speculating like everyone else on this board. But, perhaps the team sees something in Ellis and Dorsey that none of us do. I don't know, but neither does anyone else here. As I said in my original post, if I had to guess what was going to happen, I would guess that they draft Keith Rivers. But, if the team truly loves one of them, and isn't just sending out a smoke screen, then I am wondering why, since neither one appears to fit the current system.

    (edit)This is minor semantics, and I'm not trying to discredit you, but the Jets would not allow the Pats to negotiate with Vilma.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
  24. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    That's because we're a fairly knowledgeable lot and have a rudimentary understanding of how the Patriots front office works. I always find some value in PT55's posts. Certainly #7-9 aren't foregone conclusions. #2-3 are original insightful claims. I can't wait to see how the draft shakes out to see if it supports his claims.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
  25. mike100915

    mike100915 Rookie

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    This is a sham. We could all do this if we wanted. You take a bunch of the rumors and be mysterious about them. All he does is collect all the rumors which all of us know, and then put his spin on them with his "inside info". Come on do you guys really think he has any inside knowledge? It's fun to read, but come on......he's no different from us.
  26. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Thanks for the post. Do you think Groves' cardiac history has them backing off a bit?
  27. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    How do you personally gain all that much insight from his post? Go back and check your prior convos, and you'll realize that "55" usually seems to agree with just about everything you say regarding draft prospects. He also recycled a few ideas I hadn't seen floated anywhere else but here. Also, when this poster first started posting in the draft forum, he didn't come off as all that knowledgeable, but now he suddenly knows all? Complete BS.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
  28. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Well, he's had the Patriots on Stewart from the beginning. He's had them liking Jenkins where nobody else, including me, sees it. He has them not liking McKelvin or Cromartie, which is borderline heresy. He has them going WR early. He strongly feels they can go OL in the first round and LB not until the third. He has them thinking Chris Long is very overrated, in fact if they were both there at #7, they'd take Gholston....none of these go along with the common thinking around here.

    I mean, I believe he has a source among the Patriots scouting community. Maybe he doesn't and he just likes to sound important on anonymous message boards. We'll know soon enough. And in our prior convos, I think he influences my thinking a lot more than I do his.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
  29. PatsandTrojans55

    PatsandTrojans55 Rookie

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    (A) I don't understand the whole argument about Ellis or Dorsey.

    First of all, They will not change from their base 3-4, but will continue to utilize the 4-3 at times.

    (B) Ellis or Dorsey would both be the back-up NT to Wilfork and both are talented and flexible enough to move out to end at times.

    (C) Both players would upgrade the D-Line immediatly over Wright (6-4, 295)and Smith (6-1, 308).

    (D) The argument about the size of Ellis (specifically) is very flawed.
    1. They feel he can pack on some more weight
    2. His ability to command a double team and the way he uses his leverage and power is very attractive.

    (E) For those calling this a smoke screen, think about this:
    You might have an argument if it was just Ellis, However, you include a player like Dorsey and that theory goes out the window because Dorsey has never been in their mind outside the Top-5. Also, Laws is another player they like if they address D-Line later and I've heard comparisons to Ellis specifically in regards to him.

    (F) This was finally picked up on a whole month after their interest started to peak.

    (G) Think about this for a minute: If they feel that they have NO glaring weaknesses and they like their depth and flexibility at corner and they have a different plan for LBer depth. They are looking for the best player to upgrade a position and bring some value and flexibility to the team. Why not upgrade your NT position if they feel that's more of an upgrade for their depth and flexibility.

    (H) I keep saying don't be surprised because they don't have the sense of urgency to pick a LBer or Corner like most of the fans and they would like to upgrade depth at other areas before what the fans would consider more needed areas.

    The thinking is this: The best way to keep constant pressure on the QB is to have depth so guys don't get to tired. Your back-up should be comparable to the starter. So if they draft a player like Ellis you now have a back-up NT that is so powerful he commands a double team and still gives others like Green, Warren, Seymour and the Rush LB's better match-ups on key 3rd downs while you replace Vince on those downs. Wright has a good motor but doesn't command a double team and gets pushed around because he's got a 6-4 frame and its' harder to gain leverage. It's about upgrading and flexibility and they feel Ellis would be an instant upgrade at a premium position in the 3-4.

    You can agree with it or not, but I just give you what I'm hearing.
    PT55
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2008
  30. mike100915

    mike100915 Rookie

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    I agree with you 100%. It's interesting to read, but in the end, he doesn't have an inside source. Good ideas.....but that's it.
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