The most dominant pure runners of all time

[PonyExpress]

Walter Payton is still #7...ugh

In the end Payton will be #5. Brown, Sanders, Davis, ****erson, and Payton will stay in the top 5 once the active players decline. Brown: inarguably #1. Sanders: averaged 5.0 yards a carry and 100 yards a game for his career. Davis: had 7 consecutive 100 yard games in the playoffs, and averaged 144 yard per game in the postseason (8 appearances). ****erson: still holds the all-time single season record after 22 years. Payton: 2nd all-time career leader.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The ranking was done by averages per game, so length of seasons doesn't factor in.

Seriously - a 4.75 yards per carry career average for Red Grange doesn't cut it in your statistics?

And that's including the 2/3rds of his career in which he played with an ACL tear... and that's including the fact that he played on both sides of the ball and might have been a little winded.

Forget about grumbling over who got dissed being #7 - this guy doesn't even break the top 100?

 

[dryheat44]

Seriously - a 4.75 yards per carry career average for Red Grange doesn't cut it in your statistics?

And that's including the 2/3rds of his career in which he played with an ACL tear... and that's including the fact that he played on both sides of the ball and might have been a little winded.

Forget about grumbling over who got dissed being #7 - this guy doesn't even break the top 100?

And Jeebus, Al Bundy had four touchdowns in the City Championship for Polk High. He HAS to at least crack the top 40.

 

[PonyExpress]

Seriously - a 4.75 yards per carry career average for Red Grange doesn't cut it in your statistics?

And that's including the 2/3rds of his career in which he played with an ACL tear... and that's including the fact that he played on both sides of the ball and might have been a little winded.

Forget about grumbling over who got dissed being #7 - this guy doesn't even break the top 100?

Grange was not a special pro player. He was a fantastic college player who was important in the history of pro football because he gave legitimiacy to the NFL by playing in it. I don't even think he had 200 total carries in his career. Also statistics aren't as reliable prior to 1941.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Grange was not a special pro player. He was a fantastic college player who was important in the history of pro football because he gave legitimiacy to the NFL by playing in it. I don't even think he had 200 total carries in his career. Also statistics aren't as reliable prior to 1941.

Trust me on this - regardless of what you think of pre 1941 statistics, there is NO ONE who questions whether Red Grange was one of the greatest runners of all time - pro and college

"I was interviewing George Halas and I asked him who is the greatest running back you ever saw. And he said, 'That would be Red Grange.'

And I asked him if Grange was playing today, how many yards do you think he'd gain. And he said, 'About 750, maybe 800 yards.'

And I said, 'Well, 800 yards is just okay.' He sat up in his chair and he said, 'Son, you must remember one thing. Red Grange is 75 years old.' "

-- Chris Berman on ESPN's SportsCentury show.

I think you are way off in your stats on Grange too

200 career carries?

He had that his rookie year alone - although that was the high point as football was a slightly different game back then. No question he had fewer carries when his leg was held together by just a few loose ligaments, but he still did pretty well, averaging nearly 5 yds per carry.


While web pages dedicated to oldtime players like Grange are few and far between, I had a book that went into great detail of it - though the actual stats on the internet are tough to come by (ESPN.com wasn't quite as good at keeping up with stats during the Depression either) these stats look about right

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/6925/apfalegends.html

 

[PonyExpress]

Trust me on this - regardless of what you think of pre 1941 statistics, there is NO ONE who questions whether Red Grange was one of the greatest runners of all time - pro and college



I think you are way off in your stats on Grange too

200 career carries?

He had that his rookie year alone - although that was the high point as football was a slightly different game back then. No question he had fewer carries when his leg was held together by just a few loose ligaments, but he still did pretty well, averaging nearly 5 yds per carry.


While web pages dedicated to oldtime players like Grange are few and far between, I had a book that went into great detail of it - though the actual stats on the internet are tough to come by (ESPN.com wasn't quite as good at keeping up with stats during the Depression either) these stats look about right

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/6925/apfalegends.html

Thanks for the link. It looks like I was wrong about Grange's stats. Still I hesitate to include him just because the game is so different now. I think prior to 1950 was a different game... a great one, but just different.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well you give us your qualifications on how you were doing your rankings but you didn't bother listing the numbers. It would be more helpful to see the numbers you based the rankings on too then just a short opinionated blurb.

BTW I think almost anyone here would agree it's way too soon to project Maroney anywhere on this list as he hasn't played a single pro snap yet. His running style reminds me of Clinton Portis because he is deadly when he gets to the outside. Maroney has that second gear to kick it out for that homerun when he gets to the next level of the D. I've seen runs where he got the angle and flat out outruns 5 or 6 defenders en route to the endzone.

I definitely took some of your suggestions into account, especially the great Billy Sims...
I think once a runner reaches a certain base quantity of yards, like top 50 all-time, it should no longer be about “compiling†numbers to show how great he is, but about his per game averages, i.e. the overall dominance of your game, similar to a pitcher’s ERA. This way of looking at careers would discourage the “Willie Mays Syndromeâ€, because the longer a player hangs on past his prime, the less dominant his career becomes. I think the best way to figure out who the most dominant pure runners are, and I’m not talking about pass-catchers, but just pure runners, is to rank them against each other based on their averages PER GAME throughout their careers. So I compiled this list ranking each player in three categories against his peers: yards per carry, yards per game, and TDs per game over the course of his career. I reserved some authors license, for instance downgrading Robert Smith because his numbers were inflated running against 6 man fronts in a pass-dominated offense. You will find that many active players rank very highly. This is to be expected, because they are still in their prime. If Earl Campbell or ****erson had been ranked after 5 years, like Tomlinson, they would have been off the charts. Needless to say, these active players will meet the same decline as the retired players once did and lapse back toward the mean. So here is the new top 40 list as it stands.
Active players *.
1. Jim Brown: simply the best
2. Barry Sanders: lionheart
3. T. Davis: cut down in his prime
4. S. Alexander*: man on the way up
5. Tomlinson*: starting to wear down?
6. ****erson: underrated troublemaker
7. Payton: biggest little man in the world
8. P. Holmes*: please retire
9. F. Taylor*: big-market HOFer.
10. E. James*: plenty left
11. E. Campbell: battering ram frozen in time
12. G. Sayers: brief but brilliant
13. Simpson: didn’t score many TDs
14. B. Sims: forgotten cowboy
15. J. Lewis*: out of the joint, but looking for one
16. E. Smith: strung a lot of garbage years together at the end
17. J. Taylor: forgotten gem
18. C. Dillon*: if only he hadn’t played for Cinci…
19. M. Faulk*: disintegrating before our eyes…
20. T. Dorsett: Landry limited his opportunities
21. A. Green*: fumbling away his rep…
22. W. Andrews: almost lost a leg
23. C. Martin*: steady warhorse
24. F. Harris: heart of a champion
25. R. Watters: overlooked A-hole.
26. Joe Perry: old school
27. T. Thomas: still looking for his helmet
28. T. Barber*: like fine wine
29. R. Smith: got out unscathed
30. Csonka: bulldozer
31. Riggs: workhorse bowling ball
32. R. Williams: coulda woulda shoulda
33. F. McNeil: shifty thoroughbred
34. J. Riggins: not as good as he thought he was
35. M. Allen: 2 good years; an overrated compiler
36. J. Bettis: Bus was outta gas 4 years ago.
37. E. George: tough guy crawled to the finish line
38. C. Muncie: Cokehead TD machine
39. W. Tyler: overshadowed in the early 80s
40. J.H.Johnson: Old-timer from the "million dollar backfield"

Just missed the cut:
J. Brooks: scat-back nightmare
L. MCutcheon: Rams home run hitter
J. Anderson: a knee injury short of the HOF
W. Dunn: Flutie of Rbs
H. Walker: USFL stole his prime
T. Allen: overlooked underdog
E. Byner: overcame the fumble
R. Craig: high kick to glory
N. Anderson: followed a tough act to follow

 

[PonyExpress]

I didn't want to bore anyone...but since you asked, here are the raw numbers (YPC/YPG/TDPG). Active players *.
1. Jim Brown: 5.2/104.3/.90 simply the best
2. Barry Sanders: 5.0/99.8/.65 lionheart
3. T. Davis: 4.6/93.9/.74 cut down in his prime
4. S. Alexander*: 4.6/81.4/.93 man on the way up
5. Tomlinson*: 4.3/93.2/.91 starting to wear down?
6. ****erson: 4.4/90.8/.62 underrated troublemaker
7. Payton: 4.4/88/.58 biggest little man in the world
8. P. Holmes*: 4.6/79.6/.80 please retire
9. F. Taylor*: 4.6/86.3/.53 big-market HOFer.
10. E. James*: 4.2/96.1/.64 plenty left
11. E. Campbell: 4.3/81.8/.64 battering ram frozen in time
12. G. Sayers: 5.0/72.9/.57 brief but brilliant
13. Simpson: 4.7/83.2/.45 didn’t score many TDs
14. B. Sims: 4.5/85.1/.70 forgotten cowboy
15. J. Lewis*: 4.4/88.9/.48 out of the joint, but looking for one
16. E. Smith: 4.2/81.2/.73 strung a lot of garbage years together at the end
17. J. Taylor: 4.4/65.1/.63 forgotten gem
18. C. Dillon*: 4.3/77.8/.51 if only he hadn’t played for Cinci…
19. M. Faulk*: 4.3/69.8/.57 disintegrating before our eyes…
20. T. Dorsett: 4.3/73.6/.45 Landry limited his opportunities
21. A. Green*: 4.6/66.4/.44 fumbling away his rep…
22. W. Andrews: 4.6/68.8/.34 almost lost a leg
23. C. Martin*: 4.0/83.9/.54 steady warhorse
24. F. Harris: 4.1/70.1/.53 heart of a champion
25. R. Watters: 4.1/73.9/.54 overlooked A-hole.
26. Joe Perry: 4.8/54.1/.34 old school
27. T. Thomas: 4.2/66.3/.36 still looking for his helmet
28. T. Barber*: 4.7/63.7/.36 like fine wine
29. R. Smith: 4.8/69.6/.33 got out unscathed
30. Csonka: 4.3/55.3/.44 bulldozer
31. Riggs: 4.1/63.5/.53 workhorse bowling ball
32. R. Williams: 4.0/86.5/.57 coulda woulda shoulda
33. F. McNeil: 4.5/56.1/.26 shifty thoroughbred
34. J. Riggins: 3.9/64.9/.59 not as good as he thought he was
35. M. Allen: 4.1/55.4/.56 2 good years; an overrated compiler
36. J. Bettis: 3.9/71.1/.47 Bus was outta gas 4 years ago.
37. E. George: 3.6/73.5/.48 tough guy crawled to the finish line
38. C. Muncie: 4.3/60.9/.65 Cokehead TD machine
39. W. Tyler: 4.7/59.0/.46 overshadowed in the early 80s
40. Leroy Kelly: 4.2/53.5/.54 Mudder of all mudders

 

[zarakotas5]

Everyone readily agrees that Barry Sanders was a great back, but is it still possible that the man has actually been quietly underrated? Jim Brown was a man amongst boys, relatively compared to the modern NFL.

Sanders played 10 solid seasons, free of injury despite his diminuitive size. He played for a god-awful franchise amidst a particularly sorry stretch of their history. Rightly so, people who never saw him play will revere Emmitt Smith. Yet, I do not feel that I am alone in imagining what may have become of my man Barry had he been the RB in Dallas during his career.

No, he probably couldn't bulldoze Steve Atwater a la Okoye, but he didn't need to. Besides, the topic is "runner" not "smash-mouther". He quietly clocked in, did his work, clocked out, and drove home in an Acura.

I am continually astonished by the degree to which people seem to just take for granted the amazing talent that they witnessed from Barry Sanders. People ooh and ahh over Reggie Bush, lament injuries over nostalgic heros, and debate the merit of above-average backs who found themselves in favorable conditions.

The best pure runner of all-time, particularly considering the progress of the game, is Barry Sanders.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Loved watching all those guys play...but i put Sanders on top. Jim Brown was physically ahead of his time...which helped him alot. Sanders, had no physical advantage other than talent....if each got to play in the other's era...Sanders would outpace Brown all day long.

One guy missing there is Chuck Muncie. Granted he was the lone RB on a passing team...but Muncie dominated when he was healthy. He had no FB, no dominant run blockers...he simply bowled over tacklers in the middle and outside. Most dominant runners just are getting warmed up at his average 14 carries a game. Muncie was just getting heated up then also.

Unfortunately...Muncie had many personal demons. Take away the last 2 cocaine years and his numbers would have averaged 4.4 per carry.

If he had played for a run blocking team...his numbers would have been higher than:

4.1 / 61 / .65

I put him in around #20.

HONORABLE MENTION TO MY FAVORITE SAM "BAM" CUNNINGHAM

 

[PonyExpress]

Loved watching all those guys play...but i put Sanders on top. Jim Brown was physically ahead of his time...which helped him alot. Sanders, had no physical advantage other than talent....if each got to play in the other's era...Sanders would outpace Brown all day long.

One guy missing there is Chuck Muncie. Granted he was the lone RB on a passing team...but Muncie dominated when he was healthy. He had no FB, no dominant run blockers...he simply bowled over tacklers in the middle and outside. Most dominant runners just are getting warmed up at his average 14 carries a game. Muncie was just getting heated up then also.

Unfortunately...Muncie had many personal demons. Take away the last 2 cocaine years and his numbers would have averaged 4.4 per carry.

If he had played for a run blocking team...his numbers would have been higher than:

4.1 / 61 / .65

I put him in around #20.

HONORABLE MENTION TO MY FAVORITE SAM "BAM" CUNNINGHAM

FBN,
I have Muncie at #38 on the revised edition on page 1 of this thread. But, as the waters rise here along the Merrimac, I am busy waitin out the flood revising this list based on a new and improved statistical model which I think will answer most criticism...to be continued...

 

[desi-patsfan]

9. F. Taylor*: big-market HOFer.

Now i hope i am wrong but this cant be Fred Taylor of the Jags could it? How in the world is he ranked higher than seyers, simpson, campbell, and emmit smith? Someone help me understand this. ANd please put red grange in that list. A RB list without him is just plain silly.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Jim Brown immediately comes to mind. I've never seen him play, but from everything I read, he was a RB you can build a team around.

Eric ****erson, to me, isn't a great RB because of his penchant for putting the ball on the ground. A RB that can't take care of the football isn't a good back and I would never want him on my team.

Sean Alexander is the Peyton Manning of RBs, lots of gaudy stats against weak run defenses and too many quiet games against tough ones.

 

[AdamJT13]

I agree and disagree. It was sad for Emmitt to stick around compiling numbers in order to pass a player like Payton, who was better than him.

Emmitt already had the record when he stuck around. The season Emmitt had when he broke the record was better than Payton's final season.

On the other hand, maybe the best way to do this list is to pick the 6 or 7 greatest seasons of each player. I think the number should be at least 6, so players like Sanders and Brown aren't penalized for having more great seasons than anyone else. I'll have to think that through more carefully.

I think you need to re-think a lot of things before your list attains any value at all. Right now, it's skewed so many ways that it's an example of how NOT to do a statistical analysis.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Interesting list. I like the fact you had the stones to put Brown at No. 1. So many people would rank Sanders in front of him and I don't agree. I would have bumped up Earl Campbell ahead of Fred Taylor. I think you make a point on E. Smith and garbage years, but the man was a warrior. I don't care how good Dallas' O-Line was -- he was a tough SOB and loved football as much as life itself. I also like the recognition of Billy Sims. People forget how great he was.

 

[Mainefan]

Jim Brown WAS the kind of runner you build a team around and the Browns did just that. He made the Browns a powerhouse in his day. The quarterbacks--Frank Ryan and Milt Plum--were, to put it mildly, barely average. But Brown was truly unstoppable. The Browns almost had another one, as well, Ernie Davis, I think his name was--another incredible RB from Syracuse. But he got leukemia and I don't believe he ever played. It would have been a two-man punch unequalled before or since.

 

[dryheat44]

Jim Brown WAS the kind of runner you build a team around and the Browns did just that. He made the Browns a powerhouse in his day. The quarterbacks--Frank Ryan and Milt Plum--were, to put it mildly, barely average. But Brown was truly unstoppable. The Browns almost had another one, as well, Ernie Davis, I think his name was--another incredible RB from Syracuse. But he got leukemia and I don't believe he ever played. It would have been a two-man punch unequalled before or since.

Ernie Davis is correct. He followed Brown at Syracuse, and then was followed in turn by Floyd Little (another candidate for the list). Defensive Lineman Ernie Brown who played with the Steelers recently was named after Ernie Davis.

The truly remarkable thing about Jim Brown is that Lacrosse was his best sport, and he left the NFL with plenty of prime years left to go to Hollywood. His numbers, had he played another five years, would have been staggering.