The Brandon Bolden bubble case + Poll

[Real World]

A lot can happen from now until the season starts, but all things being equal, unless someone gets hurt or really sucks, he's likely going to be a roster casualty.

 

[maineman209]

Slater, King, Jones, Ebner are 4 st only players.
If Jones earns pt as a corner, he is not special teams only but fills the same role.
Many players could fill Grissoms role. If that weren't the case he wouldn't have been cut last camp. Devlin or a 3rd TE would also be in the mix for the type of snaps Grissom got.

You seem to have it as special teams only being a position, but if a top special teamer can also play and contribute at a position, they are dislodging a st only player because it adds to the roster flexibility.
Valuing special teams means you keep good st players around, but if those players can contribute on offense or defense such as Chung, McCourty, Devlin, etc its a plus, without degrading the sts.

Aside from OL, who block on every FG and extra point attempt, and aside from Develin, who blocks for our returners (9.4 ST snaps per game), there's a huge difference between how much offensive players contribute on ST and how much defensive players contribute in terms of ST snaps per game active. The simplest explanation for that is that return coverage teams (2 units) require guys who are very good tacklers, so they're mostly populated by defensive guys.

 

[Ring 6]

Bolden was active for 14 games in 2016. He played on all four ST units, meaning that he blocked for Pats returners and also attempted to tackle opposing returners. He averaged 18.9 ST snaps/game active. He averaged less than ONE offensive snap per game active.
... Blount had zero ST snaps on the season
... White had 13 total ST snaps (as a returner)
... Lewis had 8 total ST snaps (as a returner)

In 2014, Bolden averaged 17.8 ST snaps/game and 4.6 offensive snaps per game.
... Vereen had zero ST snaps
... Blount had zero ST snaps
... Ridley had zero ST snaps
... Gray had 46 ST snaps.

In 2015, Bolden was pressed into service as an RB to cover for injuries. In those games where he wasn't used significantly on offense, he averaged over 19 ST snaps/game. In those games where he WAS used on offense, he averaged less than 12 ST snaps. Meanwhile ...
... Blount had zero ST snaps
... White had 2 ST snaps
... Lewis had 8 ST snaps

In 2016, BURKHEAD averaged 16.6 ST snaps per game through the first 10 games. During the last six games of the season, when he was a significant part of the Bengals offense, he averaged 7 ST snaps per game. Meanwhile:
... Hill had zero ST snaps
... Bernard had zero ST snaps
... Peerman had 112 ST snaps, but only 13 total offensive snaps

Hypothetically, it's possible that Burkhead could cover all of Bolden's ST snaps per game, AND all of the lead rusher's snaps per game. However, there's a pattern in the stats above that indicates to me that it's highly unlikely that the Pats will use their lead rusher (or any of their top three RBs) on anywhere near that many ST snaps per game.

But you also have to factor in that RBs are not typically top special teamers. These 2 are, so comparing them to Blount of Jeremy Hill isn't apples to apples.
That said:
A) I wouldn't expect Burkhead to be a major st contributor is he is going to carry the ball 250 times, despite it being possible.
B) I don't expect him to carry the ball 250 times.
C) I see Burkhead as Sammy Morris. A backup RB1 who gets about a drive a quarter and also can backup the passing game backs, White and Lewis.
D) In that role he certainly could handle Boldens st duties.
E) A defensive player could also handle Boldens ST duties.
F) Bolden is a good ster and has by all accounts a good team attitude, so BB will try to keep him if possible.

 

[maineman209]

But you also have to factor in that RBs are not typically top special teamers. These 2 are, so comparing them to Blount of Jeremy Hill isn't apples to apples.
That said:
A) I wouldn't expect Burkhead to be a major st contributor is he is going to carry the ball 250 times, despite it being possible.
B) I don't expect him to carry the ball 250 times.
C) I see Burkhead as Sammy Morris. A backup RB1 who gets about a drive a quarter and also can backup the passing game backs, White and Lewis.
D) In that role he certainly could handle Boldens st duties.
E) A defensive player could also handle Boldens ST duties.
F) Bolden is a good ster and has by all accounts a good team attitude, so BB will try to keep him if possible.

D) Since we don't have snap counts before 2012, Morris-Burkhead is an impossible comp to quantify. However, Morris joined the Pats at age 30 and finished his Pats career at age 33. During that time, he averaged over 7 carries and 2 targets per game for the 47 games he was active, so it's likely that he was on the field with the offense for quite a bit more than 9 snaps per game. With that usage, and at his age, I doubt that he saw extensive use on ST, except as a returner.

Anyway, with 300 offensive snaps for the season (about 19 snaps/game), Burkhead would be at least the #3 RB. At that level of usage, I highly doubt that he averages as many as 5 ST snaps per game with the Pats. Bolden has averaged about three times that many ST snaps over the past 3 seasons.

E) The question is, "WHAT defensive player?"

 

[Ring 6]

D) Since we don't have snap counts before 2012, Morris-Burkhead is an impossible comp to quantify. However, Morris joined the Pats at age 30 and finished his Pats career at age 33. During that time, he averaged over 7 carries and 2 targets per game for the 47 games he was active, so it's likely that he was on the field with the offense for quite a bit more than 9 snaps per game. With that usage, and at his age, I doubt that he saw extensive use on ST, except as a returner.

I don't think it's a good argument to say no one kept count so it didn't happen.
But there is no point starting a disagreement that can't be quantified.
I will say Morris had 2 distinct roles while here because due to injuries his role in the offense increased.

Anyway, with 300 offensive snaps for the season (about 19 snaps/game), Burkhead would be at least the #3 RB. At that level of usage, I highly doubt that he averages as many as 5 ST snaps per game with the Pats. Bolden has averaged about three times that many ST snaps over the past 3 seasons.

I don't think 300 offensive and 250 st snaps us out of line at all.

E) The question is, "WHAT defensive player?"

Most likely a db.

 

[long distance]

pressed into service as an RB

no need to use bad language..

 

[Deus Irae]

Bolden was active for 14 games in 2016. He played on all four ST units, meaning that he blocked for Pats returners and also attempted to tackle opposing returners. He averaged 18.9 ST snaps/game active. He averaged less than ONE offensive snap per game active.
... Blount had zero ST snaps on the season
... White had 13 total ST snaps (as a returner)
... Lewis had 8 total ST snaps (as a returner)

In 2014, Bolden averaged 17.8 ST snaps/game and 4.6 offensive snaps per game.
... Vereen had zero ST snaps
... Blount had zero ST snaps
... Ridley had zero ST snaps
... Gray had 46 ST snaps.

In 2015, Bolden was pressed into service as an RB to cover for injuries. In those games where he wasn't used significantly on offense, he averaged over 19 ST snaps/game. In those games where he WAS used on offense, he averaged less than 12 ST snaps. Meanwhile ...
... Blount had zero ST snaps
... White had 2 ST snaps
... Lewis had 8 ST snaps

In 2016, BURKHEAD averaged 16.6 ST snaps per game through the first 10 games. During the last six games of the season, when he was a significant part of the Bengals offense, he averaged 7 ST snaps per game. Meanwhile:
... Hill had zero ST snaps
... Bernard had zero ST snaps
... Peerman had 112 ST snaps, but only 13 total offensive snaps

Hypothetically, it's possible that Burkhead could cover all of Bolden's ST snaps per game, AND all of the lead rusher's snaps per game. However, there's a pattern in the stats above that indicates to me that it's highly unlikely that the Pats will use their lead rusher (or any of their top three RBs) on anywhere near that many ST snaps per game.

2014 undercuts your case

 

[long distance]

Somewhat surprised 2/3 going with Bolden on the roster
(even if some are 51% yeses like in our Tony's case)

To press the Bolden case further and eliminate some of the grey area - the poll is about the beginning of the season, meaning 9/7 n0t necessarily 9/2 cut-down.

I am bringing this up because Bolden could be a prime candidate to fall in this grey area.

At the moment 6 guys are absent from practices due to undisclosed injuries. Hopefully none is serious enough to stop them from starting the season . but there is always a possibility one or more will be placed on IR. From the currently injured players only Hightower and Jelks can be placed on regular season PUP (meaning they don't have to be placed on 53 roster first). If any other injured player can't start the season and Pats want to put him on injured reserve list (w possibility for 2 of them to return) . they have to put him/them on final preseason 53 roster first. That's the 9/2 cut.

When they place injured players from final 53 on IR . there is of course immediate opening on the roster . and since Bolden acc. to most people isn't in danger of making another team (I wouldn't be too sure about that since at least some ex Pats running the shows in other organizations know him well and possibly like what he brings) . he could be a prime candidate to be cut on 9/2 and re-signed a day or so later..

f.e. if Slater is unable to start the season he could go to IR and Bolden (if cut) takes his place on the roster..

 

[maineman209]

I don't think it's a good argument to say no one kept count so it didn't happen.
But there is no point starting a disagreement that can't be quantified.
I will say Morris had 2 distinct roles while here because due to injuries his role in the offense increased.

I said that "it didn't happen"? Hmm... can't find that in my comment.

It seems to me that, when comparing one thing that happened earlier that was not quantified or recorded to something that happened later that was quantified and recorded, it's impossible to judge. Unless, of course you're Roger Goodell talking about the pressure in footballs.

I don't think 300 offensive and 250 st snaps us out of line at all.

YOU may not think so, but the recent history of the Pats says the opposite.

Most likely a db.

WHICH db? Some generic db to be named later, or do you have some specific db in mind?

 

[Ring 6]

I said that "it didn't happen"? Hmm... can't find that in my comment.

It seems to me that, when comparing one thing that happened earlier that was not quantified or recorded to something that happened later that was quantified and recorded, it's impossible to judge. Unless, of course you're Roger Goodell talking about the pressure in footballs.

Didn't say you did just saying that you don't need statistics to discuss. there is the part of being there and seeing it.

YOU may not think so, but the recent history of the Pats says the opposite.

Chung played 1000 on d and 200 on sts. Devlin approached those numbers. McCourty plays over 1000 + over 100. Harmon approaches those numbers.
Sure it's unique player who is good enough to play 1/3 of the snaps on o or d and is good on special teams and plays a position that lends itself to playing on all 4 units.
That doesn't mean when that player arrives you don't use him.
We aren't saying it's over working him right?

WHICH db? Some generic db to be named later, or do you have some specific db in mind?

Well I'm not out there taking them through drills and coaching them. Perhaps Cyrus jones. Perhaps Richards.

 

[jmt57]

Just for a point of reference, here are the New England Patriots' top ST player stats from recent seasons.

2016
ST snaps - % - Player - Position -Pos Snaps - %
359 -- 80% -- Nate Ebner --- S -- 18 -- 2%
323 -- 72% -- B. Mingo ---- LB -- 47 -- 5%
307 -- 69% -- Jon Jones --- CB -- 64 -- 6%
299 -- 67% -- Brandon King - S -- 0 -- 0%
264 -- 59% - Brandon Bolden - RB - 13 - 1%
250 -- 56% -- Geneo Grissom - DE - 11 - 1%
226 -- 50% -- Matthew Slater - WR - 0 - 0%
218 -- 49% -- Shea McClellin - LB - 380 - 36%
201 -- 45% -- Patrick Chung -- S - 1006 - 96%

2015
ST snaps - % - Player - Position -Pos Snaps - %
369 -- 75% -- Nate Ebner --- S --- 45 --- 4%
313 -- 64% -- Matthew Slater - WR -- 0 - 0%
267 -- 54% -- Brandon King --- S --- 0 -- 0%
263 -- 53% -- Brandon Bolden - RB - 191 - 17%
253 -- 51% -- Jordan Richards - S - 238 - 22%
249 -- 51% -- Jonathan Freeny - LB - 389 - 36%
236 -- 48% -- Patrick Chung --- S -- 885 -- 81%
194 -- 39% -- Jonathan Bostic -- LB - 40 - 4%

2014
ST snaps - % - Player - Position -Pos Snaps - %
324 -- 70% -- Tavon Wilson -- S -- 183 -- 17%
286 -- 61% -- Matthew Slater - WR - 13 -- 1%
285 -- 61% -- Brandon Bolden - RB - 73 -- 6%
257 -- 55% -- Chris White --- LB --- 7 --- 1%
225 -- 48% -- Nate Ebner --- S --- 34 --- 3%
215 -- 46% -- Logan Ryan -- CB -- 510 - 47%
183 -- 39% -- Patrick Chung - S -- 839 - 77%
170 -- 36% -- Kyle Arrington - CB - 442 - 41%

2013
ST snaps - % - Player - Position -Pos Snaps - %
364 -- 74% -- Jamie Collins -- LB -- 296 -- 26%
328 -- 67% -- Chris White --- LB --- 1 --- 0%
325 -- 66% -- Nate Ebner --- S --- 5 --- 0%
285 -- 58% -- Dane Fletcher -- LB -- 208 - 18%
254 -- 52% -- Matthew Slater - WR -- 21 -- 2%
253 -- 52% -- Tavon Wilson -- S --- 17 --- 2%
207 -- 42% -- Marquice Cole -- CB - 161 - 14%
202 -- 41% -- Michael Buchanan - DE - 119 - 10%
186 -- 38% -- Devin McCourty -- S -- 1023 - 89%
185 -- 38% -- Kyle Arrington -- CB -- 828 -- 72%

2012
ST snaps - % - Player - Position -Pos Snaps - %
318 -- 65% -- Niko Koutivides -- LB -- 9 -- 1%
298 -- 61% -- Nate Ebner ----- S --- 36 --- 3%
289 -- 59% -- Matthew Slater - WR - 42 - 3%
257 -- 53% -- Devin McCourty - CB - 1076 - 98%
238 -- 49% -- Tavon Wilson -- S -- 464 -- 42%
215 -- 44% -- Kyle Arrington -- CB -- 827 -- 75%
204 -- 42% -- Marquice Cole -- CB -- 194 -- 18%
198 -- 41% -- Tracy White --- LB --- 70 --- 6%
178 -- 36% -- Trevor Scott -- DE -- 249 -- 23%
177 -- 36% -- Mike Rivera --- LB -- 19 --- 2%

 

[zoostation]

True. But to be fair the line was broken when Bolden's turn came.
Also he did “bounce back“ & saw more snaps and carries than S-Jax in AFCCG.

AndyJohnson had Bolden gone around February. Then after the Pats signed him in the offseason he stated he would be cut early training camp. Does it really matter what he says now? Bolden makes the team.

 

[maineman209]

Didn't say you did just saying that you don't need statistics to discuss. there is the part of being there and seeing it.

Right. Because I haven't been following football and attending games since 1963, I have no idea about the "being there and seeing it" part.

You made the numeric argument that Burkhead CAN handle 300 offensive snaps at RB, and cover Bolden's average 19 ST snaps per game with the implication that the Pats WILL do that.

I countered with actual numbers/stats for several players showing that the Pats don't typically do that with an RB (and the Bengals don't either) and are, therefore, highly unlikely to do so with Burkhead. In fact, it's very rare for any NFL team to use a significant offensive skill player extensively on ST.

You countered that with your unquantifiable memories of ONE PLAYER from almost a decade ago with the implication that your "eye test" trumps the facts about the usage of several RBs from two different teams - with the implication that I don't have the same experience or "eye test" capability.

Chung played 1000 on d and 200 on sts. Devlin approached those numbers. McCourty plays over 1000 + over 100. Harmon approaches those numbers.
Sure it's unique player who is good enough to play 1/3 of the snaps on o or d and is good on special teams and plays a position that lends itself to playing on all 4 units.
That doesn't mean when that player arrives you don't use him.
We aren't saying it's over working him right?

It seems to me that we were discussing Burkhead and RB usage on offense versus special teams usage. Develin, a FB/TE, has typically played half as many ST snaps/game as Bolden (9.4 versus 18.9).

It's pretty clear that defensive players take the bulk of ST snaps regardless, so introducing Chung, McCourty and Harmon into the discussion has little relevance to RB usage on ST - or, for that matter, the ST usage of other key offensive skill players.

That doesn't mean when that player arrives you don't use him.

Again, YOU may want to use Burkead that way, and YOU may believe that the Pats should/will use Burkhead that way and, thus, be able to replace Bolden on the roster. But measured and recorded history seems to show that's highly unlikely to happen.

It's not at all about "overworking" Burkhead. As to specifically why Chung (12.6), McCourty (8.9), Harmon (7.8), Branch (9.6), Van Noy (8.3) and McClellin (15.6) played so many ST snaps per game in addition to extensive snaps on defense while Roberts (1.5), Rowe (0.8) and Butler (0.0) played so few, IDK. You'd have to ask BB about that. But again, these are all defensive players, NOT offensive skill players, much less specifically RBs so you're really just muddying the waters by attempting to generalize.

Well I'm not out there taking them through drills and coaching them. Perhaps Cyrus jones. Perhaps Richards.

Precisely my point, none of us (both of us included) can possibly know which specific player who's currently on the roster could actually cover Bolden's ST snaps in the eyes of the coaching staff - or if ANY of them could. So, saying that "a defensive player could take Bolden's ST snaps" is merely wishful thinking at this point.

------
I gotta say, Andy, you post a lot of comments on this forum that I've personally agreed with and rated useful, funny or simply liked. But, all too often, when someone disagrees with your opinion about something and presents factual information to support their contrary opinion, you go off on these endless jags, relentlessly attempting to "prove" that your opinion is "right" and that the other person doesn't know what they're talking about, while using every debate trick in the book to distort or discredit the opposing argument/factual information and/or to take the discussion in another direction entirely.

To me, this really detracts from your other, very valuable and insightful contributions. I really wish you'd try to just take a step back and agree to disagree after the first couple of exchanges instead of fighting it out to the bitter end so that you can get in the last word and declare victory. I certainly won't think any less of you if you declare it a draw and let it go.

 

[Ring 6]

Right. Because I haven't been following football and attending games since 1963, I have no idea about the "being there and seeing it" part.

Well you did say you can't consider any time before snap counts were tallied. I'm not sure why this is pissing you off. You are saying you don't want to use something that isn't written down as a stat and I am saying I saw Sammy Morris play a lot of st snaps. We disagree. There is nothing wrong with that.

You made the numeric argument that Burkhead CAN handle 300 offensive snaps at RB, and cover Bolden's average 19 ST snaps per game with the implication that the Pats WILL do that.

That they COULD do that.

I countered with actual numbers/stats for several players showing that the Pats don't typically do that with an RB (and the Bengals don't either) and are, therefore, highly unlikely to do so with Burkhead. In fact, it's very rare for any NFL team to use a significant offensive skill player extensively on ST.

And I say that is because they didn't have a RB that fits that mold. Not a lot of RBs cove kicks. It makes sense why that is a unique combination. Taking about blount or Deion Lewis in this context is pointless. 300 snaps is not a"significant offensive skill player" to me it's a backup.

You countered that with your unquantifiable memories of ONE PLAYER from almost a decade ago with the implication that your "eye test" trumps the facts about the usage of several RBs from two different teams - with the implication that I don't have the same experience or "eye test" capability.

Any implication is in your head.
Morris played a lot of special teams. I saw it. That's not an eye test that is remembering how the player was used.
I don't understand how comparing RBs who are not good st players would have anything to do with those who are. I'm not sure what the bengals have to do with how the patriots dole out st snaps.

It seems to me that we were discussing Burkhead and RB usage on offense versus special teams usage. Develin, a FB/TE, has typically played half as many ST snaps/game as Bolden (9.4 versus 18.9).

I dot understand your point. If burkhead had bolden like st skills (which is the assumption) why would he play devlin level snaps? How are the 2 related. I listed devlin because it's an example of a guy playing a bunch of st snaps who also plays backup level offensive snaps.

It's pretty clear that defensive players take the bulk of ST snaps regardless, so introducing Chung, McCourty and Harmon into the discussion has little relevance to RB usage on ST - or, for that matter, the ST usage of other key offensive skill players.

We strongly disagree here.
First these players show that you can have a large role on 1st-3rd down and still play a lot on st.
Obviously defensive players play more st snaps because half of them involve tackling.
Offensive skill players don't tackle and often don't block all that well (which is why TEs, and FBs i.e. The best blocking skill players get the most snaps)
The exact point here is that burkhead is the anomaly, a RB, like bolden, who had the skills to play on all 4 units.
You are arguing it's hard to find someone who does that, and I am saying he does it because he is unique.

That doesn't mean when that player arrives you don't use him.

Again, YOU may want to use Burkead that way, and YOU may believe that the Pats should/will use Burkhead that way and, thus, be able to replace Bolden on the roster. But measured and recorded history seems to show that's highly unlikely to happen.

I have said the MAY.
How do you expect to measure the usage of a unique player?
You can't measure it based in how different players were used.
Bolden was used that way. He just wasn't good enough to also get offensive snaps. Morris was as well, and he actually had a similar offensive role to what burkhead may have (although Morris' role change dramatically based on injury issues that happened in those years).
The last 2 RBs we had won were capable sters played sts.
You are dismissing them in favor of guys who didn't have st skills.

It's not at all about "overworking" Burkhead. As to specifically why Chung (12.6), McCourty (8.9), Harmon (7.8), Branch (9.6), Van Noy (8.3) and McClellin (15.6) played so many ST snaps per game in addition to extensive snaps on defense while Roberts (1.5), Rowe (0.8) and Butler (0.0) played so few, IDK. You'd have to ask BB about that. But again, these are all defensive players, NOT offensive skill players, much less specifically RBs so you're really just muddying the waters by attempting to generalize.

They play more or less based upon their skill set. Why did butler play more snaps at corner than Cyrus jones? Because he is better at it. Who did mcclellin play more st snaps than Roberts? Because he is better at it.
Why do most defensive players play more st snaps than RBs? Because they are better at it. Burkhead, bolden and Morris are the exceptions. Just as Steve tasker and David tyree were as WRs.

Precisely my point, none of us (both of us included) can possibly know which specific player who's currently on the roster could actually cover Bolden's ST snaps in the eyes of the coaching staff - or if ANY of them could. So, saying that "a defensive player could take Bolden's ST snaps" is merely wishful thinking at this point.

Because you it I don't know who would take the snaps doesn't have any bearing in whether they could. We have clearly established thatdefensuve players are out there playing tons of st snaps. You are acting as if bolden is the only guy on the planet who can play those spots. It's just not true. Hell we replace slater when he is injured and he is a much better st player than bolden.

------

I gotta say, Andy, you post a lot of comments on this forum that I've personally agreed with and rated useful, funny or simply liked. But, all too often, when someone disagrees with your opinion about something and presents factual information to support their contrary opinion, you go off on these endless jags, relentlessly attempting to "prove" that your opinion is "right" and that the other person doesn't know what they're talking about, while using every debate trick in the book to distort or discredit the opposing argument/factual information and/or to take the discussion in another direction entirely.

I'm sorry you feel that way.
All I have said is that I think burkhead could be rb3/rb4 and still play as many st snaps as bolden has.
I don't think your analysis of what unsinilar players did is valid. I see Morris as a good example and don't agree he doesn't count because no one counted up his snaps.

This isn't about "debate". There isn't a winner or loser. Opinions aren't only allowed to be used if there is a statistic.
I am giving my opinion.
I am explaining why the counter points you raise don't change my opinion.
I don't think I have said anywhere that you are stupid, ignorant, or even wrong.
We disagree. That is fine. But when you tell me why you disagree with me why do you find it necessary to post things like the above, as if you are in some high moral ground, because you are telling me why you disagree with me?
You seem to want me to say "ok you are right" yet you are doing nothing if the sort.
I am sure there are arguments to be made in both sides. I feel the ones one side are stronger abd you feel the opposite.
I don't understand how this is ME "relentlessly trying to prove I am right" but not you? For each statement of my opinion you have given yours. Why is mine construed as needing to be right and yours not? We are doing the exact same thing.

Why can't this be a discussion about football? Is it really necessary to turn it into this?

To me, this really detracts from your other, very valuable and insightful contributions. I really wish you'd try to just take a step back and agree to disagree after the first couple of exchanges instead of fighting it out to the bitter end so that you can get in the last word and declare victory. I certainly won't think any less of you if you declare it a draw and let it go.

But why wouldn't you do that? You haven't agreed to disagree. You have tried to argue you are right exactly as many times as me. Actually more because I am simply stating my opinion and you are telling me I am wrong. Look in the mirror.

 

[Ring 6]

AndyJohnson had Bolden gone around February. Then after the Pats signed him in the offseason he stated he would be cut early training camp. Does it really matter what he says now? Bolden makes the team.

Do you want to show me where I said that?
I think you are mistaken.

 

[maineman209]

Well you did say you can't consider any time before snap counts were tallied. I'm not sure why this is pissing you off. You are saying you don't want to use something that isn't written down as a stat and I am saying I saw Sammy Morris play a lot of st snaps. We disagree. There is nothing wrong with that.


That they COULD do that.



And I say that is because they didn't have a RB that fits that mold. Not a lot of RBs cove kicks. It makes sense why that is a unique combination. Taking about blount or Deion Lewis in this context is pointless. 300 snaps is not a"significant offensive skill player" to me it's a backup.


Any implication is in your head.
Morris played a lot of special teams. I saw it. That's not an eye test that is remembering how the player was used.
I don't understand how comparing RBs who are not good st players would have anything to do with those who are. I'm not sure what the bengals have to do with how the patriots dole out st snaps.





I dot understand your point. If burkhead had bolden like st skills (which is the assumption) why would he play devlin level snaps? How are the 2 related. I listed devlin because it's an example of a guy playing a bunch of st snaps who also plays backup level offensive snaps.



We strongly disagree here.
First these players show that you can have a large role on 1st-3rd down and still play a lot on st.
Obviously defensive players play more st snaps because half of them involve tackling.
Offensive skill players don't tackle and often don't block all that well (which is why TEs, and FBs i.e. The best blocking skill players get the most snaps)
The exact point here is that burkhead is the anomaly, a RB, like bolden, who had the skills to play on all 4 units.
You are arguing it's hard to find someone who does that, and I am saying he does it because he is unique.



I have said the MAY.
How do you expect to measure the usage of a unique player?
You can't measure it based in how different players were used.
Bolden was used that way. He just wasn't good enough to also get offensive snaps. Morris was as well, and he actually had a similar offensive role to what burkhead may have (although Morris' role change dramatically based on injury issues that happened in those years).
The last 2 RBs we had won were capable sters played sts.
You are dismissing them in favor of guys who didn't have st skills.



They play more or less based upon their skill set. Why did butler play more snaps at corner than Cyrus jones? Because he is better at it. Who did mcclellin play more st snaps than Roberts? Because he is better at it.
Why do most defensive players play more st snaps than RBs? Because they are better at it. Burkhead, bolden and Morris are the exceptions. Just as Steve tasker and David tyree were as WRs.






Because you it I don't know who would take the snaps doesn't have any bearing in whether they could. We have clearly established thatdefensuve players are out there playing tons of st snaps. You are acting as if bolden is the only guy on the planet who can play those spots. It's just not true. Hell we replace slater when he is injured and he is a much better st player than bolden.

------

I'm sorry you feel that way.
All I have said is that I think burkhead could be rb3/rb4 and still play as many st snaps as bolden has.
I don't think your analysis of what unsinilar players did is valid. I see Morris as a good example and don't agree he doesn't count because no one counted up his snaps.

This isn't about "debate". There isn't a winner or loser. Opinions aren't only allowed to be used if there is a statistic.
I am giving my opinion.
I am explaining why the counter points you raise don't change my opinion.
I don't think I have said anywhere that you are stupid, ignorant, or even wrong.
We disagree. That is fine. But when you tell me why you disagree with me why do you find it necessary to post things like the above, as if you are in some high moral ground, because you are telling me why you disagree with me?
You seem to want me to say "ok you are right" yet you are doing nothing if the sort.
I am sure there are arguments to be made in both sides. I feel the ones one side are stronger abd you feel the opposite.
I don't understand how this is ME "relentlessly trying to prove I am right" but not you? For each statement of my opinion you have given yours. Why is mine construed as needing to be right and yours not? We are doing the exact same thing.

Why can't this be a discussion about football? Is it really necessary to turn it into this?


But why wouldn't you do that? You haven't agreed to disagree. You have tried to argue you are right exactly as many times as me. Actually more because I am simply stating my opinion and you are telling me I am wrong. Look in the mirror.

Well, here I am, agreeing to disagree.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, here I am, agreeing to disagree.

Ditto

 

[zoostation]

Do you want to show me where I said that?
I think you are mistaken.

You referred to Bolden as the Chuck Knoblauch of the NFL

 

[zoostation]

AndyJohnson I apologize. I searched it up by Chuck Knoblauch and it wasn't you. Seriously, my bad and I apologize !

 

[long distance]

Somewhat surprised 2/3 going with Bolden on the roster
(even if some are 51% yeses like in our Tony's case)

To press the Bolden case further and eliminate some of the grey area - the poll is about the beginning of the season, meaning 9/7 n0t necessarily 9/2 cut-down.

I am bringing this up because Bolden could be a prime candidate to fall in this grey area.

At the moment 6 guys are absent from practices due to undisclosed injuries. Hopefully none is serious enough to stop them from starting the season . but there is always a possibility one or more will be placed on IR. From the currently injured players only Hightower and Jelks can be placed on regular season PUP (meaning they don't have to be placed on 53 roster first). If any other injured player can't start the season and Pats want to put him on injured reserve list (w possibility for 2 of them to return) . they have to put him/them on final preseason 53 roster first. That's the 9/2 cut.

When they place injured players from final 53 on IR . there is of course immediate opening on the roster . and since Bolden acc. to most people isn't in danger of making another team (I wouldn't be too sure about that since at least some ex Pats running the shows in other organizations know him well and possibly like what he brings) . he could be a prime candidate to be cut on 9/2 and re-signed a day or so later..

f.e. if Slater is unable to start the season he could go to IR and Bolden (if cut) takes his place on the roster..

just wanted to add this fact to my reasoning above .. maybe not everyone is aware