Sonics offer C's Ray Allen for 5th pick + Theo

[BradyManny]

According to Hoopshype via a Seattle radio station.

Would you do it?

I feel like that's incredible value for the fifth pick, and we'd really be getting a steal for one of the best shooters in the league and a great defender.

Still, there's a bunch of solid players available at #5 and I for one have become increasingly excited about the prospects of seeing any one of them on the C's...but Ray Allen for the fifth pick? I think you'd have to seriously consider it if you're Ainge.

 

[bakes781]

Hell yeah!

 

[Real World]

I'm not doing it. I love Allen as a player, but at 32 years old, and with 3 years and $63 million left on his deal, I'm not sure I want to give up the #5 pick. He's not a big man, and we already have a log jam of players at that height (or shorter) and at that position. The C's need a power player, or someone who has length. In Marion and Lewis, the C's would have a couple of power 3's, or players that could play the 4. Allen is strictly a 2 or 3, and a permiter one at that. He is a phenominal player, but not what the C's specifically need. I'd take him, I'm just not sure that's the best direction the team should go in.

 

[BradyManny]

I'm not doing it. I love Allen as a player, but at 32 years old, and with 3 years and $63 million left on his deal, I'm not sure I want to give up the #5 pick. He's not a big man, and we already have a log jam of players at that height (or shorter) and at that position. The C's need a power player, or someone who has length. In Marion and Lewis, the C's would have a couple of power 3's, or players that could play the 4. Allen is strictly a 2 or 3, and a permiter one at that. He is a phenominal player, but not what the C's specifically need. I'd take him, I'm just not sure that's the best direction the team should go in.

This was my initial reaction, too - but think like the Pats would, in terms of value. Getting Ray Allen for the fifth pick is a steal.

If Perkins had developed into the guy I thought he'd be at this point - a force on the boards and on defense - then I think you wouldn't even question pulling the trigger. Big Al is your offense down low at the 4, and he and Perk clean up on the boards.

The real risk involved in the deal is in the assumption that Perk is adequate at being your 5, which I don't know we can say.

 

[VJCPatriot]

How is this any different than trading for AI?
The Celtics need a big man, not another wing or a shooting guard pretending to be a point guard.

 

[BradyManny]

How is this any different than trading for AI?
The Celtics need a big man, not another wing or a shooting guard pretending to be a point guard.

It's not different than trading for AI. I would've loved to see AI play here, and I think Danny would've, too, the trade just didn't happen (first b/c we didn't have the pick King wanted, and later b/c I don't think King wanted to move Iverson within the conference).

The Chicago Bulls won all 6 of their championships with no real center. They had a rebounding 4, whether Grant and or Rodman, but the idea that a dominating big is a pre-requisite to win rings is just not true. Obviously Paul Pierce and Ray Allen isn't Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, but that team was propelled by the SG and SF position, and the C's could be the same.

 

[dhamz]

If there is a plan to make several subsequent moves and fill in the roster around Al, Allen, and Pierce with the missing parts it coule be worth doing. You can build a contender around those 3 guys, especially in the East. The odds of Ainge making the right moves around them is probably slim based on his track record and the lack of asstes he would have to work with but it could be done.

If they simply take Allen and stick him with Al, Pierce and the JAG gang currently on the roster, then you've traded 2 of your only 4 assets to probably lose in round 1 of the Eastern playoffs.

Your better off trading Pierce today before his trade value plummets even further with the soon to come trade demand and starting over hoping to go 15-67 next year and praying the ping pong balls bounce right.

 

[BradyManny]

If they simply take Allen and stick him with Al, Pierce and the JAG gang currently on the roster, then you've traded 2 of your only 4 assets to probably lose in round 1 of the Eastern playoffs.

Your better off trading Pierce today before his trade value plummets even further with the soon to come trade demand and starting over hoping to go 15-67 next year and praying the ping pong balls bounce right.

I disagree with both these statements.

First, even if the ping pong balls go our way next time, there's no telling what kind of draft it would be. Think of how many #1s bust. Not only do the ping pong balls have to fall your way, they have to do it in the right year.

Second, Ray Allen + Paul Pierce + Big Al is going to get you past the first round in the East. In fact, I can't really see why this wouldn't take you to the Eastern Conference finals. Who is better? The Cavs? Still primarily a one-man show for the time being. The Pistons? On the decline, in danger of losing a key piece (Billups). The Bulls? Still too young. Toronto? Miami? Maybe, maybe not. We'd certainly be up there in the elite immediately.

You're talking about 2 All Star caliber players + one soon to be All Star caliber player (Al). You have Wally coming off the bench - unless you ship him, and maybe you do - and you have a bunch of solid young role players, Gomes, Rondo, West, Allen, Perk. It's enough to make you very relevant in the East.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I would trade #5 for Ray Allen only if we have a trade in place to move PP for #3 or #4. RA and PP play the same position. So it would be a wash and we could dump Ratliff's expiring contract. Then at pick #3 or #4 we would be guaranteed Horford or Yi.

 

[dhamz]

I would trade #5 for Ray Allen only if we have a trade in place to move PP for #3 or #4. RA and PP play the same position. So it would be a wash and we could dump Ratliff's expiring contract. Then at pick #3 or #4 we would be guaranteed Horford or Yi.

We don't want Ray Allen and Pierce on the same team because they play the same posiiton (actually they don't as RA is a SG, PP a SF) but you want to put Al and Horford who play the same spot on the same team?

 

[VJCPatriot]

We don't want Ray Allen and Pierce on the same team because they play the same posiiton (actually they don't as RA is a SG, PP a SF) but you want to put Al and Horford who play the same spot on the same team?

Al Jefferson plays the 5. Horford can play 4 or 5. He has flexibility.
The Celtics are undersized as a team and they need a big.
Do you dispute this?

A team does not win a championship with guard play unless they have MJ and Pippen. I do not kid myself into thinking that PP/Allen will be anywhere near that duo. Besides that, the point still stands that the C's desperately need another big. Perkins is only a mediocre backup quality center. Leon Powe is a 10th man, not a starter. Gomes is undersized for the 4 and too slow to defend the 3.

And lest you forget, Ray Allen is 32, Pierce 30. I don't want to have a nucleus of two players each 30 or older and with those players taking a combined 30M of the salary cap. (PP 16M+, RA 14.6M+). And neither of them a big man.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3080

You've got to consider the financial aspect of trades as well as the talent aspect. A guy like KG has the potential to put us over the top (too bad he flat out rejected Boston). Ray Allen is simply a better version of PP. Problem is we already have PP and we're paying him 16M.
Therefore the logic still stands. If you are trading #5 for Ray Allen, you need to move PP for #3 or #4 to get the best big man left in the draft.

 

[BradyManny]

I would trade #5 for Ray Allen only if we have a trade in place to move PP for #3 or #4. RA and PP play the same position.

No, they don't. Allen is a 2, and Pierce is a 3. It is that simple. They both can play either the 2 or the 3, but their natural positions are not the same.

 

[VJCPatriot]

It's a moot point now. The trade went through. Better hope that Allen hasn't lost his quickness after surgery or he will have a hard time defending the fast 2s in this league. The only reason PP doesn't play 2 now is that he can't defend quick 2s. He's a bit undersized for SF.

 

[Real World]

So who guards Wade?

So who guards Lebron?

So who guards Jefferson & Carter?

So who guards Gordon & Deng?

So who guards Wallace & Richardson?

So who guards Butler, Jamison, and Arenas?

Remember, if Tony Allen is on the floor, either Pierce or Ray Allen isn't.

 

[BradyManny]

So who guards Wade?

So who guards Lebron?

So who guards Jefferson & Carter?

So who guards Gordon & Deng?

So who guards Wallace & Richardson?

So who guards Butler, Jamison, and Arenas?

Remember, if Tony Allen is on the floor, either Pierce or Ray Allen isn't.

First, that's not true, this team went small plenty. Doc would not hesitate to send this team out there without a 4 on the court. You could play Rondo, Allen, Allen and Pierce all at once in the Celtics.

More importantly, the Celtics have a specific kind of TEAM DEFENSE. It's not straight up man. Yes, Tony was used as a stopper and did play Kobe and Lebron straight up with varying results.

The team defense puts more pressure on its big men than it does on its perimeter defenders.

So, while you'll see Pierce put on Lebron, the onus is on the entire team to contain Lebron, b/c at times in this defense, players are covering an area of the floor as much as they are a player. And due to the sheer amount of switching and rotating, it's unlikely that one guy stays on a man for that long anyway.