Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune [merged]

[OhExaulted1]

I think we need to sick Bam on Brad. I'll bet he could "ring him up" real good. You know BB LOVES versatility.

 

[RayClay]

In rethinking this, I'm inclined to propose a different possibility: Suppose BB knew he had to cut two TEs to work the roster in his favor later. Suppose he really wanted to re-sign one of the TEs and was concerned that some team very lean in TEs would claim the one he wanted to re-sign. So, he calls Childress and appears to propose an agreement for the one he doesn't want in a bit of a diversion. Knowing Childress would be intrigued with whomever the Pats thought was worth re-signing, BB floats Mills' name rather than Rivers' name and asks to make a deal. Knowing Childress' recalcitrant personality, BB banks on the fact that whichever name he floats, Childress is going to bite and grab the player he thinks is favored by the Pats. Well, Brad bit for Mills, and BB re-signed Rivers later. Just the way he planned . . . .

Oooooh, I like this. Machiavellian

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Was Childress accusing BB of being dishonest?

Not true. He can be cut any time, including before the first game.

I'm fairly sure he can be cut anytime, but Minnesota is still on the hook for three weeks salary. I suspect it's a mechanism built in to make a team commit to giving the player at least that long to work with the team.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I watched the Dallas/Minnesota game tonight while recording it, first impression: Herron is a big downhill WLB who gets pulled on passing downs. His Special Teams play did not appear to be anything special at all. If anyone else has it recorded he's wearing #58. We'll just have to wait and see how he does here, but I'd be surprised if he's even active for STs use in game one.

 

[true_patriot]

5 years from now, after another multiple SB run, if/when BB writes another book - I bet there will be a paragraph/section about this incident. We will laugh our read-end off after reading it.

 

[NE39]

Looks like Tomase tried to ask Belichick about it:

From the Sun-Chronicle

Icy glares

It was 84 degrees outside the press room at Gillette Stadium, but Belichick and former Sun Chronicle correspondent John Tomase, a Mansfield native who's now the beat writer for the Boston Herald, engaged in an icy stare-down at the end of Monday's press conference.

Already annoyed by persistent questioning about Rodney Harrison's suspension, Belichick was further put off when Tomase asked about a published report from Minneapolis that said the coach had asked Vikings' coach Brad Childress over the phone not to claim tight end Garrett Mills on waivers because the Patriots wanted him for their practice squad, and Childress made the claim anyway.

According to the report in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Belichick told Childress that he was interested in one of the Vikings' young players but would not claim him off waivers if the Vikings passed on Mills.

"I said, 'Well, I'm really interested in your guy, so we'll have to let our guy slide,'" Childress told the newspaper. "He didn't really care for that. He was trying to leverage. You always find out who is honest and straightforward."

Belichick then claimed linebacker David Herron, who had signed with the Vikings as a rookie free agent and was among 22 players cut Saturday.

Belichick refused to get into specifics when asked Monday.

"I talked to a lot of people in the league over the course of the last few days," he said. "That's part of the whole process of player transactions and so forth. I'm sure that all of the coaches in the league are trying to get their team ready for opening day and the regular season and I'm trying to do the same thing. That's what I do and that's what all of the other coaches do too."

Tomase tried to ask a follow-up question, but Belichick walked away from the podium. As he was leaving the press room to enter an ante room between it and the Patriots' weight room, he stared at Tomase until he disappeared through the door - and the stare was returned in kind.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nice to see Tomase working off the new baby frustrations in a constructive manner. Good on Tomase for asking, let's hope BB takes it out on the Jest.

 

[14thDragon]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Belichick's goal, lest the 'cheap cheap' Danny Boy idiots misinterpret this, would not be to save money. Belichick was trying to save roster spots. The effect, though, would have been to deny Mills several hundred thousand dollars. That ain't chump change for the likes of you and me.
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Not quite. The Patriots have and probably will again, paid a player on the PS thier full salary in order to incetivise them to stick it out on the PS and improve in the system. If BB decided that Mills needed some more seasoning, or was good insurance should Thomas be set back from the injury then the PS is a good spot for him to grow. IIRC Yates last year got a full salary to sit on the PS, and is now on the roster.

That is the problem with having too much talent, just not enough spots for everyone.

 

[spacecrime]

What the Minneapolis-St Paul Star Tribune has to say:

http://www.startribune.com/vikings/story/1399349.html

Excerpt (emphasis mine):
"The two coaches spoke Sunday as the Vikings were poised to claim former Patriots tight end Garrett Mills, whom Belichick wanted to stash on his practice squad. New England was interested in ex-Vikings linebacker David Herron, whom the Vikings had waived but hoped to put on their practice squad.

According to Childress, Belichick offered to back away from Herron if the Vikings would not claim Mills. Speaking on WCCO-AM, Childress said he declined the offer.

Similar conversations regularly occur between NFL coaches. Childress was not available for comment Monday and is not scheduled to speak publicly until Wednesday."

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Not quite. The Patriots have and probably will again, paid a player on the PS thier full salary in order to incetivise them to stick it out on the PS and improve in the system. If BB decided that Mills needed some more seasoning, or was good insurance should Thomas be set back from the injury then the PS is a good spot for him to grow. IIRC Yates last year got a full salary to sit on the PS, and is now on the roster.

That is the problem with having too much talent, just not enough spots for everyone.

Yates was a single instance from which you're enthusiastically predicting a pattern. If it happens for Mills, you'll be right, but not until then.

OTOH, roster salaries are real and are a lot more than PS salaries. If (and this is a big if) coaches across the league, not just BB and Childress, have a pattern of colluding to deny roster spots, it can hurt specific players. It won't lower salaries in general, but a specific player who lost money as a result would have a grievance. The NFLPA, which is charged with representing individual members in their disputes, might well be forced to act. People here have been arguing that the NFLPA doesn't care because it's not a general problem, but they're a union and they're supposed to care about individual members and act on their behalf. That's what unions are for, to protect individuals from the greater power of the corporation (you're hearing this from a conservative republican).

The other reality, of course, is that this is simply alleged in the media by quoting a disgruntled coach who is something of a jerk anyway. Nothing can be proved and nothing will be done.

I'm seeing all sorts of arguments that wander into a murky forest of generalities. It's not about that. It's about two players who might have landed on practice squads instead of rosters if the alleged attempt at collusion had succeeded.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Yates was a single instance from which you're enthusiastically predicting a pattern.

Brandon Gorin was also paid full salary while on the practice squad. There was also a guy (I forget who) that the Packers tried to sign to their 53 but he declined, partly because he was being paid rookie salary for being on the practice squad, but also because he believed he would eventually stick on the Pats 53.

There could have been many others as far as we know.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Pats wouldn't be doing this again.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Yates was a single instance from which you're enthusiastically predicting a pattern. If it happens for Mills, you'll be right, but not until then.

OTOH, roster salaries are real and are a lot more than PS salaries. If (and this is a big if) coaches across the league, not just BB and Childress, have a pattern of colluding to deny roster spots, it can hurt specific players. It won't lower salaries in general, but a specific player who lost money as a result would have a grievance. The NFLPA, which is charged with representing individual members in their disputes, might well be forced to act. People here have been arguing that the NFLPA doesn't care because it's not a general problem, but they're a union and they're supposed to care about individual members and act on their behalf. That's what unions are for, to protect individuals from the greater power of the corporation (you're hearing this from a conservative republican).

The other reality, of course, is that this is simply alleged in the media by quoting a disgruntled coach who is something of a jerk anyway. Nothing can be proved and nothing will be done.

I'm seeing all sorts of arguments that wander into a murky forest of generalities. It's not about that. It's about two players who might have landed on practice squads instead of rosters if the alleged attempt at collusion had succeeded.

Two coaches tried to make their teams better - one option required a gentlemen's agreement to allow each club to keep a player they liked and develop them on the Practice Squad, another option led to both players being claimed off waivers and carried on the roster. Yes, the roster pays better, but it's also not a guaranteed position, especially with the added financial burden from players considered borderline developmental projects by their former clubs. Both may now be kept on roster in response to a coaches feud, but they could just as quickly be dumped given the coaches emotional, vice professional, involvement - emotions are funny that way. As a player I think I'd be just as happy to be on the Practice Squad of my original club and working with the position coach who has already voted for my retention. The Union fussing over my salary would be a pain in the assets, with no assurance it would be to my benefit in the end.

Scorecard for full salary players on the Practice Squad: Gorin, Yates.

 

[mgteich]

The pats should be paying a couple of practice players full salary. This does indeed expand the roster. For example, Oldenburg probably wouldn't listen very hard to offers from other teams. Ditto for Santonio Thomas.

There are two differences for the player.

1) He doesn't build up accrued years on teh Practice Squad.
2) The player can still sign with any team; the extra pay doesn't buy exclusivity.

 

[psychoPat]

Overlooked in the discussion to date
is the possibility that another team
after Minny in the picking (pecking) order
would have claimed Mills instead.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Two coaches tried to make their teams better - one option required a gentlemen's agreement to allow each club to keep a player they liked and develop them on the Practice Squad, another option led to both players being claimed off waivers and carried on the roster. Yes, the roster pays better, but it's also not a guaranteed position, especially with the added financial burden from players considered borderline developmental projects by their former clubs. Both may now be kept on roster in response to a coaches feud, but they could just as quickly be dumped given the coaches emotional, vice professional, involvement - emotions are funny that way. As a player I think I'd be just as happy to be on the Practice Squad of my original club and working with the position coach who has already voted for my retention. The Union fussing over my salary would be a pain in the assets, with no assurance it would be to my benefit in the end.

Scorecard for full salary players on the Practice Squad: Gorin, Yates.

Everything you say is true, until you get to the part of projecting what a player wants. I have no more insight into a player's desires than anyone else, but it seems reasonable to think that a TE/FB stuck behind Watson, Brady, Thomas, and Evans and offered a roster spot on another team might prefer that.

Just as a player can be cut from the roster, they can also be cut from the PS, and that happens quite a bit more frequently. At least while they're on the roster, they making serious money. On the PS, they have to hope for a Gorin/Yates sweetheart deal.

Anyway, I think I've posted enough on this thread. :bricks:

 

[MetalBleachers]

Interesting note found in this year's Sporting News draft guide in the inside LB section, both projected as seventh-rounders. Sorry no link, as issue not available online:

Ranked 17th overall: David Herron, MSU
Strengths: Reads and reacts to inside runs quickly, filling holes and taking on lead blockers. Uses his hands well to shed blockers. Chases down running backs in pursuit between the tackles.
Weaknesses: Lacks the speed to make plays outside. Can't beat running backs to the corner. Can't cover tight ends or running backs man-to-man. Lacks agility.
Bottom Line: Herron projects as a late-round or free-agent option who will contribute mostly on special teams.

Ranked 18th overall: Oscar Lua, USC
Strengths: Reads and reacts to plays quickly. Uses his hands well to shed blockers and make tackles on inside runs. Closes quickly on short passes in front of him.
Weaknesses: Is short and stocky. Lacks the explosiveness and speed to make plays near the sideline.Will struggle to cover NFL tight ends man-to-man. Is an upright runner who struggles to change direction.
Bottom line: Lua could become a backup 3-4 inside linebacker who contributes in short-yardage and goal-line situations and on special teams.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Signing Herron WAS revenge says Star Tribune

Everything you say is true, until you get to the part of projecting what a player wants.

From the story on Kyle Eckel linked in the thread on him:

Eckel cleared waivers after being released by the Miami Dolphins on Friday, and Sunday evening got the call from Belichick to see if he had any interest in playing for the Patriots.

You're right, we certainly can't project for the player, but it seems there is some effort to survey their thoughts beforehand - at least by this organization. Good luck to Mills, wherever he winds up.