Seymour in The Driver's Seat

[supafly]

THere are 2 issues being discussed on this thread. One is whether Seymour can or will be re-signed, and how valuable or important Seymour is to the team.

Seymour has on several occassioins indicated that he has no real love for living in NE. Or that rather he’d much rather live a lot further south. He is also has had either real of perceived slights from the organizaion that he might not have gotten over. Also, for either financial, or ego reasons, he’s one of those guys for whom the amount of money REALLY matters. So for that reason, I don’t think this is a matter of IF he goes, he’s gone.

My best hope is that he plays to an ALL Pro level, and remains healthy. At the end of this season, they will both dance around the contract issue for a few months, but in the end the inevidably happens and Richard will play for someone else in 2010

As to the issue of whether he's worth the effort to sign, I'd have to say yes. I love Vince Wilfolk. HOWEVER no matter how important he is to the 3-4 he STILL remains a guy who is on the field ONLY for the first 2 downs of every series. Seymour has ALWAYS been on the field for virtually every snap (when healthy). So while I am highly confident that the Pats will not re-sign Richard and WILL re-sign Vince, I think Seymour is still, for the reason given, the more valuable to the defense.

Yes, those reasons, plus the fact that he's a 5 time pro-bowler, Wilfork is not. Seymour can play every snap of the game, Wilfork needs pulled off after 2nd down. Seymour can, and has--played all 3 DL positions, Wilfork cannot. Seymour is statistically the strong side of the line (R), demands 2 players every down, is WAY more athletic in the passing game, can and does block many kicks (besides being way more athletic in general), and is one of the best 2 or 3 players at his position. Wilfork could, IN THEORY, be replaced with any of the following: Stroud, Rogers, Jenkins, even fat ass Casey Hampton. It is at least arguable that any of those other NT's are just as good, or could replace Wilfork without too much fall-off. I cannot think of many players that could replace Seymour, and have always wondered why he doesn't get the respect he deserves?

Yes, he's somewhat of a prima-donna, yes he's been injured. It could be argued that his knee injury was somewhat the coaches fault, as he has also chipped in on offensive production too. Besides his injured yr, I do not understand the dis respect for Seymour, or the idea that Wilfork cannot be replaced.

I think Seymour is better, and more valuable to the defense than Wilfork. Just one opinion, and the other side of the argument, no disrespect to Wilfork or his fans.

 

[mgteich]

We are discussing this issue as if the market for Seymour and Wilfork is about the same. I suspect that Seymour's next contract will be at least 20% per year higher than Wilfork's.

What say you all?

 

[supafly]

I agree w/ your 20% assessment--and I think that's for an obvious reason.

I think that the 3 yr guaranteed figures are for a reason:

Warren---18 m
Wilfork---somewhere between the two
Seymour---26 m

 

[captain stone]

Wilfork and Seymour are much more important to this team than Mankins...

Maybe, but Mankins is their best OLineman; though I suppose that Neal could be considered their Most Valuable OLineman, esp. seeing their physical, emotional & mental collapse after Neal left for good early in SB42.

 

[supafly]

And when you consider that Warren's and Wilfork's (if/when it happens) guaranteed numbers are 'new' 08/09 money, the gap widens even more because Big Sey's 26 million was 3 or 4 yrs ago. (inflation factor)

Seymour's 26 would be equal to about 29-30 today--proving the point even more. I've never known our coach to cave very often to too many players' salary demands, so I doubt he's 'soft' or a push-over. I think it's for an obvious reason.

I'll stop now before getting needlessly flamed

 

[JFK]

I agree...if there is a choice between the two, I would take Wilfork, but I do not think it's as easy as some believe. I think losing both would be the worst and that needs to be avoided. I also do not see at this time how both are kept..plain simple, even with an uncapped year. I just think Wilfork at this time is more important than Seymour to the D. I would try and keep both, but I think that is impossible.

But if we lose both, we'll all say "In BB We Trust"

 

[supafly]

But if we lose both, we'll all say "In BB We Trust"

Yeah, but with the clenched teeth, crazy person stare that I adhere to in such times--with a "WTF?" floating through my head.

But, yeah. I'll say it.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I think it's safe to say outside of ONE year, Seymour didn't live up to that contract. Hopefully he'll have another big year this year. I'd love to keep him around, but I think with him missing the time he has its showed us we could live without him. JMO.

 

[BionicPatriot]

We are discussing this issue as if the market for Seymour and Wilfork is about the same. I suspect that Seymour's next contract will be at least 20% per year higher than Wilfork's.

What say you all?

No question, you're talking about DE to NT here. DE is like the QB of defense these days market wise.

 

[patfanken]

Wilfolk can stay in NE indefinitely. All he has to do is be reasonable. If he wants "seymour money", he'll be very disappointed. If he wants money equal to the best NTs in the league, then he'll get what he wants. Its that simple.

But the fact is that we won't be able to keep both guys, so if I am dead wrong and sometime in the preseason we sign Seymour to an extention, then you can kiss Vince goodbye and hope that Ron Brace can get up to speed for 2010.

The good news is that BOTH Wilfolk and Seymour are playing for their next contracts regardless of where it is they end up playing, so for 2009 at least, we know we will get their best.

 

[patsfan-1982]

No question, you're talking about DE to NT here. DE is like the QB of defense these days market wise.

i do agree that seymour will make more then wilfork on the open market

wilfork is a 2 down run stoper and seymour is a all around player but he would not be a DE in a 4-3 he would be a DT unless he go's to a 3-4 team and if he dose it would be the jets

 

[mgteich]

Apparently, to be reasonable is for a player to accept whatever the team wants to give him, or whatever the fans think is reasonable. It's that simple.

Wilfolk can stay in NE indefinitely. All he has to do is be reasonable. If he wants "seymour money", he'll be very disappointed. If he wants money equal to the best NTs in the league, then he'll get what he wants. Its that simple.

But the fact is that we won't be able to keep both guys, so if I am dead wrong and sometime in the preseason we sign Seymour to an extention, then you can kiss Vince goodbye and hope that Ron Brace can get up to speed for 2010.

The good news is that BOTH Wilfolk and Seymour are playing for their next contracts regardless of where it is they end up playing, so for 2009 at least, we know we will get their best.

 

[BradyFTW!]

A choice between Wilfork and Seymour would be tougher than a lot of people give it credit for. The general consensus seems to be that Wilfork is way more important and it's not even close, but I don't really agree with that. Seymour is on the field more and is a rarer talent, and IMO is a better player. OTOH, Wilfork is younger and is at a position that is more difficult to replace, so who knows. Regardless, if it came down to Wilfork or Seymour, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Pats choose Seymour, which would be especially great because of the people here that would have heart attacks because of it.

 

[BradyFTW!]

i do agree that seymour will make more then wilfork on the open market

wilfork is a 2 down run stoper and seymour is a all around player but he would not be a DE in a 4-3 he would be a DT unless he go's to a 3-4 team and if he dose it would be the jets

If Seymour hits free agency, I'd be shocked if he ended up with a 4-3 team. There are enough 2-gap 3-4 teams out there nowadays that there will be no shortage of demand, and with him being such a proven commodity in those systems he'll warrant a larger contract from those teams.

 

[patsfan-1982]

A choice between Wilfork and Seymour would be tougher than a lot of people give it credit for. The general consensus seems to be that Wilfork is way more important and it's not even close, but I don't really agree with that. Seymour is on the field more and is a rarer talent, and IMO is a better player. OTOH, Wilfork is younger and is at a position that is more difficult to replace, so who knows. Regardless, if it came down to Wilfork or Seymour, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Pats choose Seymour, which would be especially great because of the people here that would have heart attacks because of it.

if the pats do not sign at lest one of them this year we may lose both of them

if they hit the open market team's will offer them crazy money


and i think that the franchise tag is going on Logan Mankins

 

[Synovia]

Seymour's 26 would be equal to about 29-30 today

Seymour's 26 was in 2006, before the season had started, and before the new cap number had been announced, correct?

The cap for 2006 was 109M. I believe it was still about 90M at the time Seymour signed.


If it was 90m, then Seymour's 26M is equivalent to 36M. If it was 109, its equivalent to 31M.


Isn't Wilfork asking for 4/32M total? Thats a total contract thats basically less than Seymour's Bonus.

 

[mgteich]

If there is no new CBA, Mankins will be an RFA. We will tender him with a high tender and either match or take our 1st and 3rd for him.

Whether there is a new CBA or not, why wouldn't we franchise Wilfork or Gostkowski instead of Mankins? Do we really want to pay a guard the average of the pay of the top five LT's?

if the pats do not sign at lest one of them this year we may lose both of them

if they hit the open market team's will offer them crazy money


and i think that the franchise tag is going on Logan Mankins

 

[jmt57]

if the pats do not sign at lest one of them this year we may lose both of them

if they hit the open market team's will offer them crazy money


and i think that the franchise tag is going on Logan Mankins

If a new CBA does not get done and 2010 is an uncapped year, then Mankins is only a restricted free agent; he only becomes an unrestricted free agent is a new CBA is put in to place by then. In that scenario the Pats could then re-sign/extend either Seymour or Wilfork and franchise the other.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Apparently, to be reasonable is for a player to accept whatever the team wants to give him, or whatever the fans think is reasonable. It's that simple.

It is what it is, mg. That's the system, and it's how we are able to remain so consistently competitive.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I don't think that's the system because they do give certain players what they want im sure they'd rather had paid Seymour less an moss as well but I think they pretty much paid them a price the players were comfortable with, not the take it or leave it negoitiating approach ppl here seem to thing the pats take to the table everytime. I think maybe BB feels the system can do without top tier talent in certain areas but they aren't that full of themselves where they will let integral pieces walk away for a few million they aren't willing to shell out.