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Score One For BB the GM

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NormZauchin, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. NormZauchin

    NormZauchin PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In today's ESPN Boston, Field Yates looks at the total season's productivity for ex-Patriots. One can't help but notice the low productivity of Mark Anderson (12 tackles, 1 sack) and Andre Carter (19 tackles, 2.5 sacks). Even considering Anderson's injury and Carter's late start, their prorated numbers don't come close to what they did here last season (Anderson with 29 tackles and 10 sacks, Carter with 52 tackles and 10 sacks). Ninkovich and Jones clearly outperformed them this year.

    At the start of the season, some wondered about how the Patriots were going to make up for the twenty lost sacks, but they came within three of the 2011 total and are not burdened with large contracts to two aging players. Kudos to Bill Belichick the GM.
  2. NJPatsfan26

    NJPatsfan26 Rookie

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    of course the mediots from ESPN will never give BB credit for anything he does positive.

    So glad he is our coach!
  3. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    Will we be having similar conversations about Talib a year from now?

    I'm actually guessing not. Rather -- and again I stress this is just a guess -- I think he's a young man who has gotten scared of his own wildness, and will be pleased to buy into the team structure and play for a reasonable (but still huge) amount of money.
  4. NormZauchin

    NormZauchin PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are right about his age. He is 26, Anderson is 29, and Carter is 33.
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hope we won't. But much will depend on Talib, and whether he wants to be part of something bigger than himself, instead of going for the money.

    Remember all the threads 9 months ago about how foolish BB was not to have locked up Carter and Anderson for the long term? About how he left the Pats exposed without any pass rush for 2012? About how we desperately needed to land a veteran FA such as Manny Lawson (2 sacks in 2012)?

    We should be grateful to Anderson and Carter for their contributions to the Pats in 2011. Both were fine players for us last year, and both might have contributed this year. But Anderson had had 1 good season prior to signing with the Pats, so a longer term deal really wasn't warranted at the time, and after last year he had only had 2 good seasons out of 6, and his value outside of his sack production simply didn't warrant a 4 year $19.5M contract with $8M guaranteed. I don't blame him for wanting to get paid, but he just wasn't worth it. As for Carter, he was 32 and coming off a 2.5 sack year when the Pats signed him, so a multi-year deal really wasn't an option, and coming off of his injury he simply wasn't healthy or ready until the Pats had other options lined up.

    Looking at the projected salary cap for 2013 and how difficult it may be to keep some of our key players, imagine how much harder it would be if the FO had overspent on other guys?

    And it was only 9 months ago that Buffalo awaited the news of signing of Mario Williams much like the announcement of a new Pope from the Vatican. They went from a 6-10 team to a 6-10 team.

    Of course, none of this will stop people from bashing the FO in a few months when they are forced to make some hard, and potentially unpopular, decisions. And some may indeed turn out to be wrong.
  6. Ivan

    Ivan Rookie

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    I wanted Carter back but there was no way they should have gone anywhere near what Anderson got.
  7. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Most people were fine with Anderson leaving because he was overpaid

    Many/Most people were fine with BB waiting on Carter to see if he'd be ready to go

    Where people splintered off was with the Patriots not pulling in Carter once he was ready to return to the league, even if it meant carrying him while he improved. I think that's still a legitimate point of disagreement, particularly when you look at the waste of roster space the team had in Brace.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  8. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think many people wanted to pay him what Buffalo offered. But a lot of people questioned whether the FO should have tried to lock him up to a long term deal during the season once he appeared to be productive. Just the usual second-guessing.

    Maybe, though it's unclear where Carter would have fit in the depth chart, and he would have taken another million off the cap (he signed a 1 year $925K deal with Oakland). We'd already paid similar money to Trevor Scott, who had similar production to Carter (14 tackles, 3 sacks vs. 19 tackles, 2.5 sacks). With Jones emerging as an impact player out of the gate, Francis emerging during training camp and making the roster and Cunningham showing significant improvement from 2011, there didn't seem to be a pressing need to re-sign Carter. The FO seemed to take a "wait and see" approach with Carter all along, and never reached a point where they felt compelled to make a move. In retrospect, it's not clear that there would have been enough impact to justify the cap hit, regardless of Brace's lack of impact.
  9. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hear you. I just don't think it was as cut and dry a "win" for BB as the OP seemed to think it was, because I don't think there was any "Pay Anderson!" contingent and most of the people wanting Carter weren't suggesting a big money, long-term deal for him.

    I don't know about you, but I still would like having Andre Carter as a 3rd down option in the playoffs.
  10. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    I was someone who really wanted Carter back, as much for his veteran experience and professional approach to the game as for his pass rush ability. With such a young defense I thought his presence would have been invaluable. Carter was our best defensive player last season, and his loss hurt us a lot. In fact when Minko went down, and I thought he was done for the season, immediately thought, is Carter available?.

    Anderson I knew were be looking for more than what we'd be willing to pay him, let alone what Buffalo offered. He hit the jackpot there. I was hoping the Pats would bring back Carter, but given the draft, and Francis, their dance card was full.

    BTW- hypothetically if Ninko was IRed, would it be legal for the Pats to sign Carter for the playoffs, now that the Oakland season is over, or is he still Oakland property?
  11. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

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    Contracts run through the end of the NFL calender year, around the second week of March.
  12. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    If impending FAs could move at will from eliminated teams to playoff participants, we'd see massive roster churn each January.
  13. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wish BB had re-signed Steve Martin after 2002...it's been all downhill since...right Steve From Fall River??
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Time and time again we have seen players excel in this system, as we play to their strengths, only to do poorly in another system..
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  15. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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  16. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you have to be very careful about giving those kind of contracts out to outside FAs. The Pats learned the hard way with Adalius Thomas. Bryant might have been worth it - but if he had flopped, it would have been a huge mess, much bigger than the Jonathan Fanene situation. There's a risk to giving big long term contracts to your own players, but at least they are more known quantities.

    The flat cap doesn't allow for much margin for error. It's important to tie up your key guys long term. Lose them, and you lose ground. But make a mistake or two, and you get burdened with a bunch of dead weight contracts that eat up your cap space and paralyze you. See: Jets, New York.
  17. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Agree 100%. It'll be interesting how they approach the negotiations with Talib. My perception is that the team likes what he brings to the defense and he likes being here. It always comes down to money and the hope is that the two sides can find common ground and an equitable deal that both sides can be comfortable with.
  18. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Carter was coming back from a major injury and he got better as the season went on. I'm not sure it's fair to the guy to take his numbers from this year and make a direct comparison to his numbers from last year.
  19. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sans Asante Samuel. Should have paid him!
  20. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The front seven was good this year. It would have been absolutely dominant with Bryant lining up next to Wilfork.
  21. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    You don't pay guys who don't play to the whistle and miss big plays on the biggest stage.
  22. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure about the whistle part but Welker dropped that pass in the SB? So...do we not pay him? Thats silly. Samuel has been productive to this day.
  23. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    Tyree play. He was Asante's man. He pulled up on the play before it was over. Harrison was safety help, not the cover man.
  24. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was a crazy catch and Manning should have been sacked there. If Welker catches that pass we likely win the SB. One play does not define a player. Come on! this is silly.
  25. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yup. That was a bad play by Samuel. But he was otherwise a good cover corner for us that simply gambled a little bit more than Belichick probably liked. However, that being said, I wouldn't have been opposed to seeing the team bring him back this year.
  26. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    The reason why the Pats did not pay him more was because he was not a willing tackler and at times did his own thing in the secondary (lets use the Tyree catch as an example here...).I'll also assume that they wanted to spend the money elsewhere on other players who were due extensions.

    In 2008 the Iggles gave Asante 6yrs, $57m w/ $20m in guarantees and the organization will admit to a man that they did not get what they paid for which is why the dumped him to Atl for a 7th rd pick and restructured his deal to 3yr deal worth up to $18m that has a ton of performance-based incentives.

    Asante is a great INT guy and got his hands on a lot of balls but in terms of being a TEAM player not sure about that.
  27. BB4PRez

    BB4PRez Rookie

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    I agree and believe that Carter was one of the best players on the team in 2011. But, coming of that major injury and given his age I think BB was still wise not to buy on Carter even if Carter did improve during the season and even if it was cold hearted given the leadership Carter provided last year.

    Its a young mans game. Jones, Frances, Cunningham and even Ninko (not young but younger than Carter) getting snaps was better for the team, certainly in the long term and probably close to the same in the near term given the injury Carter is recovering from.

    Anderson played hard for the Pats and got a nice paycheck from the Bills - good for him, but I doubt he was ever part of the long term plan.
  28. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    Manning only threw it to him because Asante stopped covering him. If he was covered he likely still gets sacked.
  29. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think that's an under-reported part of the Patriots' evolving personnel strategy. They've become much more willing to grant major extensions early to young players who have proved themselves HERE (Mayo, Hernandez, Gronkowski), while becoming even more skittish about taking big gambles on FAs from outside. It's a smart way to improve your risk/reward ratio, since you're eliminating all the "fit" variables from the risk side.

    It also adds an intriguing element to a mid-season rent-a-player. By test-driving Talib they've turned an outside FA into an inside one, and can get a much better reading on what he'd be worth to them long-term.
  30. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    IIRC, Martin didn't even last the entire 2002 season. It was one of first clear indications that BB had no trouble getting rid of his "mistakes" as soon as it became apparent they couldn't do the job,
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
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