Reiss: Patriots most shotgun-heavy team in league

[MoLewisrocks]

Not necessarily, here is an example of a RT who was careful not to reveal pass.

F.S. Lineman

Clearly that was on his OC or coaching...

 

[Rob0729]

Great thoughts, Rob. Lemme see if I can offer a few other key points to the discussion.

Yes and no. IMO A. Smith, Faulk, Morris and Maroney don't exactly scare defenses like a Stephen Jackson or Dillon when he was here, but the "threat" to run the ball and mix it into playcalling was always part of the Pats offense. You can certainly make a case that Weis tried to get too cute or outsmart himself some days.

Well, the only time the Pats threw over 60% of the time was in 2002. In 2003, Weis gave up on the run a lot in the second half of games. I don't know if the threat of the run was as prevalent as you remember. In fact, the common talk back then was "the Pats' short passing game is their running game".

I guess I define balance as keeping the defense honest and that can happen at a couple of different levels with 2004 being the highest level where you had a tier 1 RB who could cause damage against a 4/5/6 man front and/or a running game that has just enough respect to keep the defense honest- see 2003. Pats ran the ball quite a bit that year (ave almost 30 carries a game) and in the playoffs ran it 26, 31 and 35 times.

This year IMO the problems are multiple- and it's not just the playcalling with execution, focus and fundementals being other contributing factors to this team's difficulties in the red zone.

Except 2003 was the worst year of offense in the Brady era. Also, the Pats passed the ball percentage-wise more than the Pats did in 2006 or 2008. That was the year everyone complained about Weis giving up on the run in the second half and asking Brady to air it out.

I still think people still look back at 2004 and associates the great stuff that Weis did that year and only that year to his entire tenure. Weis had his running issues prior to Dillon too. We passed less percentage-wise in 2006 and 2008 than we did in 2002 or 2003.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, the only time the Pats threw over 60% of the time was in 2002. In 2003, Weis gave up on the run a lot in the second half of games. I don't know if the threat of the run was as prevalent as you remember. In fact, the common talk back then was "the Pats' short passing game is their running game". .

No question that Weis did abandon the run quite a few times in 2003 but they still ran the ball 47% of the time. My point is that in 03 there was a demonstratable commitment to run the ball which in turn kept the opposing defense honest. Weis used it to set up plays as well.

Except 2003 was the worst year of offense in the Brady era. Also, the Pats passed the ball percentage-wise more than the Pats did in 2006 or 2008. That was the year everyone complained about Weis giving up on the run in the second half and asking Brady to air it out.

I still think people still look back at 2004 and associates the great stuff that Weis did that year and only that year to his entire tenure. Weis had his running issues prior to Dillon too. We passed less percentage-wise in 2006 and 2008 than we did in 2002 or 2003.

Not to nit-pick too much but in 06 and 08 they passed 51%. 03 was 53%. Thats not that much of a delta with this year being almost 59% of the time Brady is throwing it up there. 02 they passed over 60% of the time, but after the Denver loss, in games they wern't blown out, they did run the ball b/t/w 23-39 each time. The same is happening this year.

Overall, I agree. 100% agree on all points..Statistically, they were pathetic running the ball in 03.

 

[cstjohn17]

That Patriots are good in the shotgun, that is the future of the passing game. I don't have a problem with it in most cases.

Some specific examples of poor play calling.

4 & 2 versus Indy - as soon as they motion Faulk out of the backfield the Colts could just go all out to get the QB, having a RB in the backfield forces the defense to respect a run option

4 &1 versus the Dolphins - The Patriots offense is finesse oriented (see stats for Shotgun), so all of the sudden they try to be 'tough' guys and ram the ball down the Phins throat? give me a break, this is the NFL, you can't just line up and over power a team. Taking Moss and Welker out of the game (best playmakers) was a huge advantage for Miami.

In both these cases either it would have been better to use a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB formation. If the opponent goes heavy then pass the ball, if they stay light run the ball.

 

[DougFlutie]

That Patriots are good in the shotgun, that is the future of the passing game. I don't have a problem with it in most cases.

Some specific examples of poor play calling.

4 & 2 versus Indy - as soon as they motion Faulk out of the backfield the Colts could just go all out to get the QB, having a RB in the backfield forces the defense to respect a run option

4 &1 versus the Dolphins - The Patriots offense is finesse oriented (see stats for Shotgun), so all of the sudden they try to be 'tough' guys and ram the ball down the Phins throat? give me a break, this is the NFL, you can't just line up and over power a team. Taking Moss and Welker out of the game (best playmakers) was a huge advantage for Miami.

In both these cases either it would have been better to use a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB formation. If the opponent goes heavy then pass the ball, if they stay light run the ball.

This team has averaged 3.5 2nd-half points in our 5 losses.
Very disappointing.

This poster below, mgteich, has it right about how to change this team:
Four Small Improvements To The Game Plan

 

[DougFlutie]

Felger just said that the Patriots are 30th in the league in tight end receptions. This is not because of lack of TE talent.

 

[Kontradiction]

Felger just said that the Patriots are 30th in the league in tight end receptions. This is not because of lack of TE talent.

Nope. It's because they are helping in the blocking game. It's too bad that neither Watson nor Baker can back-up Neal a little bit better than Connolly does.

 

[DougFlutie]

Nope. It's because they are helping in the blocking game. It's too bad that neither Watson nor Baker can back-up Neal a little bit better than Connolly does.

Didn't Daniel Graham and Christian Fauria help out a ton in the blocking game? They still got passes thrown to them.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Didn't Daniel Graham and Christian Fauria help out a ton in the blocking game? They still got passes thrown to them.

Neither one was a big-time receiving threat though. Ben Coats is not walking through that door.

 

[DougFlutie]

Neither one was a big-time receiving threat though. Ben Coats is not walking through that door.

Graham and Fauria still combined for a half dozen to a dozen TD's every year, even though they helped pass block a lot too. They were actually part of the offensive play book.

The current tight ends are talented, but they are given no opportunity to catch balls in this offense.




I was looking at the run/pass ratio of the 2003 team recently. That team was horrendous at the run, only 3.4 yards a carry, and yet that offense still ran the ball 48% of the time. There was a reason that team didn't completely abandon the run and go with their best weapons through the air, and that reason is the benefit from simply establishing the threat that you are committed to the run.

 

[Kontradiction]

Didn't Daniel Graham and Christian Fauria help out a ton in the blocking game? They still got passes thrown to them.

For one, mav, they weren't blocking nearly as much as Watson and Baker have been recently. For another, mav, the team didn't have receivers along the lines of Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

 

[Deus Irae]

Graham and Fauria still combined for a half dozen to a dozen TD's every year, even though they helped pass block a lot too. They were actually part of the offensive play book.

The current tight ends are talented, but they are given no opportunity to catch balls in this offense.




I was looking at the run/pass ratio of the 2003 team recently. That team was horrendous at the run, only 3.4 yards a carry, and yet that offense still ran the ball 48% of the time. There was a reason that team didn't completely abandon the run and go with their best weapons through the air, and that reason is the benefit from simply establishing the threat that you are committed to the run.

So, the banning apparently wasn't an IP address ban, then.......

 

[RobertWeathers]

Graham and Fauria still combined for a half dozen to a dozen TD's every year, even though they helped pass block a lot too. They were actually part of the offensive play book..

Of course the TE is part of the offensive playbook and they'll get their catches in the flow of the offense (when we had one). See below. Point being that it was NEVER the focus of the offense ala Ben Coats.

Stats for Fauria & Graham combined in the salad days. Nice production no doubt.

2002-32 catches- 8TDs
2003-64 catches 6tds
2004-46 catches -7Tds
2005-53 catches Graham/watson/Fauria-9 TDs

The current tight ends are talented, but they are given no opportunity to catch balls in this offense.

Could be true. I was never high on Watson. Baker is ok.

.

 

[ausbacker]

So, the banning apparently wasn't an IP address ban, then.......

This "argument" was taking a familiar course wasn't it Deus.

 

[Kontradiction]

This "argument" was taking a familiar course wasn't it Deus.

I think it's blatently obvious at this point. I mean, how sad is your life when you have to sneak back onto the football messageboard that banned you for being a douche by using an unassuming username? Talk about desperately needing to belong.

 

[ausbacker]

I think it's blatently obvious at this point. I mean, how sad is your life when you have to sneak back onto the football messageboard that banned you for being a douche by using an unassuming username? Talk about desperately needing to belong.

I doubt very much that anyone would have had a problem with maverick if he didn't resort to personal attacks, start countless threads on the same topic and be so short sighted that his view was the right view.

Mav did have some excellent points in some respects, but they weren't nearly as projectable for the problems on offense and defense as he was intimating.